Premium Players get less than expected!

Please show where you could access Incarnate content with the release of GR.

Oh wait. You couldn't.

GR was one of two prerequisites for the Incarnate system.

• Going Rogue
• Ongoing subscription

But you never paid directly for it.
The Incarnate content was included in Issue 19.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I'd really like to have seen you access Incarnate content without a subscription in the last year.

Correction. You had to buy GR to be able to access the Incarnate system when it went into place later. Meaning there was ancillary technology in GR (not i18) that the Incarnate system of i19 rests upon.

Evidently.

You required GR to access a host of other systems as well. Such as the Alignment system. Such as Ultra Mode. Such as Praetoria itself.

You retain access to these systems if you've bought GR as they were explicitly part of GR. If you have enough Paragon Rewards built up to have unlocked (or you pay to unlock) Controllers and MMs, you retain access to Demon Summoning and the other power sets released in GR. You retain the ability to create a Praetorian.

The thing you gripe about retaining was never part of the final release of GR/i18. Therefore, you didn't pay for it.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

You're forgetting the other prerequisite.

A paid monthly subscription.

That's missing in the case of VIPs. Is it not, therefore, reasonable to expect that certain systems aren't available?

Honestly, this has been a known issue for how long now? Why, all of the sudden, is a huge stink being raised?

Because someone who didn't bother to do the required reading feels butt-hurt?

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Fixed.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Ugh, no we don't, we really, really don't.

Indeed. Because if self-preservation is kicking in, then desperation is nigh. And desperation is quite good for making people trip over themselves and generally come across as dismissable babbling monkeys. A sound tactic.

Absolutely. Of course that axe swings both ways.
So what would you suggest? Saying yes to all demands and then continuing to do exactly what was actually promised when they finally stop whinging? (We've had a couple clients clients who constantly demand things that are completely unreasonable and well outside what they are paying for, so the boss just says yes to everything until they go away and then we do the work we were actually contracted to do. He calls it "yessing them to death.")

So if everyone disagrees with them on this subject, they're likely to stick to their guns. Ok.

Course, if nobody disagrees with them on this subject, there's nothing prompting them to reconsider their position either.

So I guess the solution is a carefully controlled number of people disagree with them, with a similarly controlled number of people agreeing with them? Except we're on an internet forum populated by separate unaffiliated individuals, so that level of control is not going to happen - you've as much chance of herding cats.

So this thread is pretty much pointless whatever we do? I doubt anyone has figured that one out yet...

I'm sure I'm repeating everyone else (haven't read the thread), but I just find this funny. It's kind of like saying: I rented a PC, installed software on it, how is it fair that I can't use the software I paid for now that I stopped renting the PC?

Getting that content was hinged on paying a subscription fee. CoH Freedom could have easily launched without letting anyone go to their old account for free, just letting them create a limited new free account and upgrade it (in fact, I think it would have been less controversial). You were never promised the ability to play anything for free.

Whether it's a smart thing to give more to free players, or if the game would make more money that way, is a different discussion, and a valid (but moot) point. Being disappointed that certain options aren't available is also fine; I know many returning players are and will be. Regardless of what the devs would give, there will always be those who are disappointed. Still, there aren't any really good arguments that the devs must supply certain features for free. They could give just two AT's for free and make you buy content over level 40 and that would still be something they'd have a right to do.

The thread isn't pointless. Its point is entirely to blow some steam, and allow people to feel and show in a public way that they're right and everyone else is wrong. And I just want to make it clear that I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

But other than this, yes, it's pretty much pointless. These forums have seen this discussion several times before, and while I'm not masochistic enough to go over this entire thread I'm sure there's nothing here which hasn't been said before. Even if there was some nugget of gold hidden somewhere inside, I'm sure none of the devs will ever see it, simply because it would be a waste of time for them to read this rehash of previous arguments just for the unlikely possibility of finding it.

Characters without IOs are NOT useless.

Simple answer: Let them say their piece, and leave it at that.

Longer answer: See next quote.

Why should they reconsider their position?

What does that help?

Player X hates, absolutely hates, what Company Y has done. Player X rants up a storm on Company Y's site.

Now, if that article is accurate - and I am inclined to agree with it - if all of the forumites "fight back" against Player X they only make Player X's opinions worse and more ingrained.

Now, not only is Player X spreading bad opinion about Company Y's actions whenever it seems appropriate (and that can be any time any one else is in hearing distance from some people I have known), but they are also adding in Company Y's fanbois to the list.
That can hurt Company Y. (Then again, depending on Player X, people may just ignore him/her).

On the other hand, if everyone let's them be, at worst Player X only has Company Y's action to hate. And is more inclined to just let the situation pass. Maybe even rethink their own opinions when the hatred subsides.

Three cheers for the set bonus bigot.

crickets chirping

Well, it's a nice sentiment and all, and in theory it might even be the best course of action, but see the part of my post you didn't quote - that achieving that sort of control and coordination on an internet forum just isn't going to happen. When people disagree they're going to speak up, especially if whatever they're disagreeing with appears to be based on (what they perceive to be) a faulty logic.

Which brings us back to the general pointlessness of the whole thread, on both sides (including your own post edit: and of course, mine). But hey, it's an internet forum, 90% of the threads are going to be pointless (save the point General_CoH made about blowing off steam, which I'd expand to the desire to have opinions heard).

I bought a DVD box of a series I like, and it came with the first few episodes of the next season as a bonus extra. I didn't feel entitled to the entirety of the next season just because I got a sneak peek.

I bought the cyborg pack but without a subscription I couldn't access it.
I bought the mutant pack but without a subscription I couldn't access it.

I bought GR for the incarnate content it unlocked but without a subscription I couldn't access it.

Now, I would be able to access the cyborg pack, mutant pack without a subscription... however, I wouldn't be able to access the Incarnate system, without the subscription still, despite having had to pay money to access it.

Now, do I think premium players should have full access to the system? No, that wouldn't be a good idea. However, I think it someone has paid for GR on the basis it was needed to play incarnates, they are entitled to some access.

Sorry techbot, I've always respected you, but this is wrong. The correct way using your key and door example, There was a house that you payed a 1 off fee to be able to rent a key to (CoX) They started building an extention (GR). While building the extention they had all sorts of items they were going to put in that room, one of those items was a big vase of flowers (Alpha slot) when they finished the room they didn't think the flowers were right and removed them. When the room was finished they put i big locked door on it. For a one off fee you could rent another key to that room. Later the built another room off that extention (Incarnate content) that room contained the flowers that were removed from the first room plus many many more flowers. Anyone that that had bought the rental to the first and second keys got access to the new room with their rental.

Now they have changed the locks, The key to the house is now being given away free. The key to the extention can be purchased if you never had before and if you rent you are given it free. The key to room off of the extention still has to be rented.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

I was in the opposite situation to this. I returned to the game after Incarnates had gone live and before buying GR.
I bought GR after I tried to get on an Incarnate trial and found out I had to have GR to do it.

Indeed.

The confusion stems from the fact that you had to have GR in order to participate in Incarnate content. Nothing in the ad's for GR mentioned Incarnates...

To those that can't understand how you can be required to have something before you can use something else, yet now it's ok...

Look at it this way. Think of GR as a DvD player and Incarnates is a DvD.
You have to have the player in order to use the disc.
Well, 3 years later Sony comes out with a TV that has aDvD player built in.
Would you then be ticked off that this Disc wasn't installed? No, you'd just go buy a copy of the one you wanted.

True enough. You can still burn them for some heat and light at night.

Note though that it's not "characters without IOs", it's "characters with IOs disabled", which can be 2-3 times weaker than the former.

Your a very helpful person so I don't like to argue so please go read my entire post. TY.

Personally I've never said None subscribers should get access to the entire of the Incarnate system, just the Alpha slot which was originally marketed as part of GR.

That they later delayed said slot doesn't matter, as they had already started selling GR with the information that the Alpha slot, the first level of incarnates would be included.

Maybe I just expect better from Paragon than them to announce "You keep everything you've bought" with a disclaimer 'except this, because we decided that you hadn't actually bought it, even though it was part of GR when we sold it you lol'

Perhaps I'm just a little worn out with Paragon Studios, since they seem to have lost whatever it was that made them a 'good' company.

Lack of communication, 'suck it down' subscriber approach to development, and of course a massive increase in the 'two tiers' of customer service (aka **** you EU), maybe my spectacles got switched to rose tinted ones but I remember them being better than this.

page 12 and I quote myself
lol