Premium Players get less than expected!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 05:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Ya know... does anybody really OWN software, anymore. Last I noticed nobody SOLD you anything, only granted you a license to use. IF such is the case, then you/we have no leg to stand on. Licenses granted bestow rights to the Licensee that are entirely at the discretion of the Licensor. Here is an excerpt from the License Agreement (contract) that we all agreed to (signed) upon installation of the software and each time we subsequently run it:
Caps not mine.
12. NCSOFT DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES, LIMITATION OF LIABILITY AND RELEASES
(a) ANY SERVICE, CONTENT OR SOFTWARE FROM NCSOFT, ANY THIRD-PARTIES UNDER AGREEMENT WITH NCSOFT, ANY PARENT, SUBSIDIARY OR AFFILIATE OF NCSOFT, OR ANY EMPLOYEE, AGENT, SUPPLIER, LICENSEE, CUSTOMER, DISTRIBUTOR, SHAREHOLDER, DIRECTOR OR OFFICER OF ANY OF THE FOREGOING, IS PROVIDED AT YOUR OWN RISK ON AN "AS AVAILABLE," "AS IS" BASIS IN ITS CURRENT CONDITION AND WITHOUT ANY REPRESENTATION, GUARANTEE, OR WARRANTY OF ANY KIND OR IN ANY WAY RELATED TO SERVICE, SUPPORT, INDEMNITY, ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OPERATION, UPDATES, CORRECTION OF DEFECTS, OR THAT IT IS FREE FROM DEFECTS OR VIRUSES OR HARMFUL COMPONENTS OF ANY FORM WHATSOEVER. ALL SUCH OBLIGATIONS ARE HEREBY DISCLAIMED AND YOU HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT, ANY THIRD-PARTIES UNDER AGREEMENT WITH NCSOFT, ANY PARENT, SUBSIDIARY OR AFFILIATE OF NCSOFT, AND ANY EMPLOYEE, AGENT, SUPPLIER, LICENSEE, CUSTOMER, DISTRIBUTOR, SHAREHOLDER, DIRECTOR OR OFFICER OF ANY OF THE FOREGOING, EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, STATUTORY OR BY OPERATION OF LAW, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT, QUIET ENJOYMENT, ACCURACY, COMPLETENESS, OPERABILITY, QUALITY OF SERVICE, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR USE. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW ALL SUCH DISCLAIMERS OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES, SO THEY MAY NOT ALL APPLY TO YOU. BY ENTERING THIS AGREEMENT TO USE NCSOFT SERVICE, CONTENT OR SOFTWARE YOU ACCEPT THE FOREGOING DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES / ALLOCATION OF RISK AND AGREE TO RELEASE NCSOFT, ANY THIRD-PARTIES UNDER AGREEMENT WITH NCSOFT, ANY PARENT, SUBSIDIARY OR AFFILIATE OF NCSOFT, AND ANY EMPLOYEE, AGENT, SUPPLIER, LICENSEE, CUSTOMER, DISTRIBUTOR, SHAREHOLDER, DIRECTOR OR OFFICER OF ANY OF THE FOREGOING, FROM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES AND OBLIGATIONS TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW. THE FOREGOING ARE ESSENTIAL TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND, IF ANY OF THESE TERMS ARE CONSTRUED AS UNENFORCEABLE, FAIL IN ESSENTIAL PURPOSE, OR BECOME VOID OR DETRIMENTAL TO NCSOFT, ANY THIRD-PARTIES UNDER AGREEMENT WITH NCSOFT, ANY PARENT, SUBSIDIARY OR AFFILIATE OF NCSOFT, AND ANY EMPLOYEE, AGENT, SUPPLIER, LICENSEE, CUSTOMER, DISTRIBUTOR, SHAREHOLDER, DIRECTOR OR OFFICER OF ANY OF THE FOREGOING, THEN ANY LICENSE YOU MAY HAVE UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL TERMINATE IMMEDIATELY. MOREOVER, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THE FOREGOING SHALL SURVIVE ANY EXPIRATION OR TERMINATION OF ANY LICENSE, AGREEMENT OR USE RELATED TO THE GAME.
This is the most pertinent part, I think:
-IS PROVIDED AT YOUR OWN RISK ON AN "AS AVAILABLE," "AS IS" BASIS IN ITS CURRENT CONDITION AND WITHOUT ANY REPRESENTATION, GUARANTEE, OR WARRANTY OF ANY KIND OR IN ANY WAY RELATED TO SERVICE, SUPPORT, INDEMNITY, ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OPERATION, UPDATES, CORRECTION OF DEFECTS, OR THAT IT IS FREE FROM DEFECTS OR VIRUSES OR HARMFUL COMPONENTS OF ANY FORM WHATSOEVER.-
Now, I'm no fanboi and I like "stuff" as much as anybody but I can't see where arguing about our "due" is going to get us. We GOT what we were due. We use a piece of software "as available" and "as is". It's what we signed off on, contractually.
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Unless they have all available builds already filled with IOs they can always switch to a different build with SOs in it. Or, they could buy an invention license, paying less than a seventh of what they were paying per month as a subscriber, and continue using IOs.
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Originally Posted by General_CoH
True enough. You can still burn them for some heat and light at night.
Note though that it's not "characters without IOs", it's "characters with IOs disabled", which can be 2-3 times weaker than the former. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
They have said from the start that incarnate was VIP only.
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Notice the difference: Two of these are things you bought, one of them is a thing unlocked by a thing you bought.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
I bought the cyborg pack but without a subscription I couldn't access it.
I bought the mutant pack but without a subscription I couldn't access it. I bought GR for the incarnate content it unlocked but without a subscription I couldn't access it. |
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| Now, do I think premium players should have full access to the system? No, that wouldn't be a good idea. However, I think it someone has paid for GR on the basis it was needed to play incarnates, they are entitled to some access. |
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seebs for mayor
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I propose they get access to all of the incarnate features that were available when GR was released. That is the incarnate content that is part of GR, which they purchased. Incarnate content that was added in later issues would be VIP-only. |
No Incarnate content was released with GR. That's fine.
It has been posted over and over, but yet again here I go. At PAX they announce the Incarnate system as "the future" and that we would be given a "taste" in GR. In no part was Incarnate content solicited as part of GR. It was, in fact, solicited as part of I19. If you read what the break down is for free vs premium vs VIP it has "always" stated VIP is required for Incarnates. This was "never" hidden. CoH always retained they would not be offering a lifetime sub and it's silly that people are upset because there isn't a way to cheat the system and make a lifetime sub. VIPs need a distinction and Incarnate content is it. All you have to do to have access to it is what you've done all along, pay your monthly. Freedom was never meant to be a system where current subscribers stepped down to premium.
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So, say if a player had the retail key to the architect edition, you also feel that they should have full access to AE if they are not a subscriber?|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Personally I've never said None subscribers should get access to the entire of the Incarnate system, just the Alpha slot which was originally marketed as part of GR.
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Or a retail box of CoV, which does have MMs as a fairly well advertised feature.
The only real difference is that Incarnate abilities aren't obtainable through any other means, but that is different from a premium subscriber being denied stuff that they purchased. It is possible for a premium subscriber to not have those Reward entitlements, so the issue is the same to me.
"Nope, you bought it a long time ago, but you have to pay for it again now. Or you can buy it indirectly through other market purchases!"
And the issue as to if a specific feature should be obtainable without a subscription is really just a design decision.
Let's Dance!
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You seem to be unable to grasp the concept that the devs aren't the Marketing Department and what they say isn't Marketing. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Personally I've never said None subscribers should get access to the entire of the Incarnate system, just the Alpha slot which was originally marketed as part of GR.
That they later delayed said slot doesn't matter, as they had already started selling GR with the information that the Alpha slot, the first level of incarnates would be included. Maybe I just expect better from Paragon than them to announce "You keep everything you've bought" with a disclaimer 'except this, because we decided that you hadn't actually bought it, even though it was part of GR when we sold it you lol' Perhaps I'm just a little worn out with Paragon Studios, since they seem to have lost whatever it was that made them a 'good' company. Lack of communication, 'suck it down' subscriber approach to development, and of course a massive increase in the 'two tiers' of customer service (aka **** you EU), maybe my spectacles got switched to rose tinted ones but I remember them being better than this. |
Furthermore there was no lack of communication on the devs part. You yourself acknowledged that the devs told us they had changed their minds and pulled the first incarnate level before GR launched. So you new it wasn't a part of the paid expansion.
This is nothing more than another example of how some players only pay attention to what they want and dismiss/ignore the rest, then complaining when it bites them in the butt.
I wish that the GR Pre-Order site was available, cached, or something. I'm interested in seeing what the description was for folks who bought before it was released. If the Store's product description made any reference to Incarnates there MIGHT be an argument. That is what they bought (or didn't buy). When the transaction was complete, THAT part of the deal is done. If it SAID that it included Incarnate content but did NOT then they should have said/done something about it then and there, to include uninstalling it, having the code canceled and requesting a refund. If it did not say anything about Incarnates then it's really a case of Caveat Emptor.
This is, despite what anyone said, all that matters. What was represented when the money actually changed hands?
I have my boxed edition I got from Gamestop and nothing on it mentions the Alpha Slot or Incarnates.
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Actually, I think that some people believe that Posi screwed them by announcing something that he didn't follow through on, which people paid for without realizing that he had, for QUALITY reasons, pulled. I ALSO believe that a lot of people are just pissed at themselves for not understanding what they were buying.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You seem to be unable to grasp the concept that the devs aren't the Marketing Department and what they say isn't Marketing.
Furthermore there was no lack of communication on the devs part. You yourself acknowledged that the devs told us they had changed their minds and pulled the first incarnate level before GR launched. So you new it wasn't a part of the paid expansion. This is nothing more than another example of how some players only pay attention to what they want and dismiss/ignore the rest, then complaining when it bites them in the butt. |
Of course, nobody would be complaining if EVERYONE was still having to pay. Oh wait, everyone DOES have to pay if they want their Incarnates.
I liken this whole issue to I6 when City of Villains was introduced. I originally had no intention of EVER being a villain, but as more and more HERO activity involved SG BASE access (that my prestige was BUILDING but I could not get INTO) I eventually bought GvE while feeling disgusted about it. I thought it was a horrible way to do business, and still do, but it is what it is. I dealt. Deal.
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iirc there were some rather... outspoken... people who got their money back for gr by convincing cs that they purchased expecting incarnate content. of course they lost access with their refund. to me this reinforces that incarnates aren't part of gr.
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Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
I wish that the GR Pre-Order site was available, cached, or something. I'm interested in seeing what the description was for folks who bought before it was released. If the Store's product description made any reference to Incarnates there MIGHT be an argument. That is what they bought (or didn't buy). When the transaction was complete, THAT part of the deal is done. If it SAID that it included Incarnate content but did NOT then they should have said/done something about it then and there, to include uninstalling it, having the code canceled and requesting a refund. If it did not say anything about Incarnates then it's really a case of Caveat Emptor.
This is, despite what anyone said, all that matters. What was represented when the money actually changed hands? |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You seem to be unable to grasp the concept that the devs aren't the Marketing Department and what they say isn't Marketing.
Furthermore there was no lack of communication on the devs part. You yourself acknowledged that the devs told us they had changed their minds and pulled the first incarnate level before GR launched. So you new it wasn't a part of the paid expansion. This is nothing more than another example of how some players only pay attention to what they want and dismiss/ignore the rest, then complaining when it bites them in the butt. |
They didn't say anything about removing alpha until just before open beta, you know quite along time after many people, including myself had already pre-purchased it.
Not pre-ordered it, pre-purchased it, paid for it, bought it from Paragon. At the time of purchase, all information about the product said that Alpha slot was included.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I got mine from Best Buy, but I'm not talking about Retail. I'm talking about customers who utilized the Pre-order. They're the only ones who MIGHT have a case, depending on what the NCSoft Store page said about at the time they bought.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I have my boxed edition I got from Gamestop and nothing on it mentions the Alpha Slot or Incarnates.
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None of this has anything to do with CoH: Freedom, of course.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They didn't say anything about removing alpha until just before open beta, you know quite along time after many people, including myself had already pre-purchased it.
Not pre-ordered it, pre-purchased it, paid for it, bought it from Paragon. At the time of purchase, all information about the product said that Alpha slot was included. |
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Well there ya go. Thank you. THIS gives the pre-purchase people something to work with.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They didn't say anything about removing alpha until just before open beta, you know quite along time after many people, including myself had already pre-purchased it.
Not pre-ordered it, pre-purchased it, paid for it, bought it from Paragon. At the time of purchase, all information about the product said that Alpha slot was included. |
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I'm starting to have to check your avatar to make sure it's not GG who's posting... |
Originally Posted by Aneko
None of this has anything to do with CoH: Freedom, of course.
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Again, all information all stated "Sneak Peak at the Incarnate system coming with i19." Tada! Not part of Going Rogue.
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Not really since the devs told us the only thing included in the pre-purchase was early access to Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols. They never said anything else was set in stone for the release of GR. |
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Well there ya go. Thank you. THIS gives the pre-purchase people something to work with.
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They even pulled Ultra Mode from GR before it was launched and gave it to us for free early because it was ready.
Funny how they aren't complaining about getting ripped off over Ultra Mode being pulled because it was "advertised" as being a part of GR.
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ok here again is an important distinction that people are overlooking. We were told at a panal that they were shooting to have a sneak peek at the incarnate system by the developers. they are not advertising, this is the kind of informal communication that a lot of us like from the developers. but we also understand that beta testing is a changeable situation, and the bare bones version of the incarnate system that comprised the sneak peek was rejected by a significant portion of the player community.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They didn't say anything about removing alpha until just before open beta, you know quite along time after many people, including myself had already pre-purchased it.
Not pre-ordered it, pre-purchased it, paid for it, bought it from Paragon. At the time of purchase, all information about the product said that Alpha slot was included. |
That is part of the changeable nature of beta testing, but the claims made here, that the system was advertised as being part of gr, or that there was FALSE ADVERTISING(as lucky overcapitalizes), are wrong, advertising is more cautious than the informal communications we get at cons, partly for this reason. Those of us who bre bought gr did so for our own reasons, there was no incarnate bonus for pre-buying, so you either wanted the 2 powersets early, or you wanted in the tier 2 beta. both of those were delivered, so there really is no claim of false advertising, the purchase was made before formal advertising had begun, and it was made in good faith for what was provided. some simply did not acknowledge the fine print.
now to reiterate, it was advertized that you needed to purchase a copy of gr to partake in incarnate content, but it was also understood that you had to pay a sub fee to play any of it, so the question simply was never asked if one could have gr, quit paying for access to the game and still have access to incarnates, you either were subbed or not. so its perhaps fairer tos ay that there were 2 preconditions for incarnate access, a sub and a gr purchase, prems satisfy the second but not the first condition, so thats why they dont get incarnates.
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Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Well there ya go. Thank you. THIS gives the pre-purchase people something to work with.
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I didn't pre-purchase, so didn't read the contents of the store description for the pre-purchase. Did you? CactusBrawler says that he DID.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Not really since the devs told us the only thing included in the pre-purchase was early access to Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols. They never said anything else was set in stone for the release of GR.
They even pulled Ultra Mode from GR before it was launched and gave it to us for free early because it was ready. Funny how they aren't complaining about getting ripped off over Ultra Mode being pulled because it was "advertised" as being a part of GR. |
You bought Going Rogue, so you have access to all things DIRECTLY RELATED to Going Rogue itself- Allignment, Praetoria, the power sets, the zones. Incarnates are not related to Going Rogue in that way, the closest you could have had was a sneak peak at FUTURE content, which the Alpha Slot was intended to be. That was also removed before the launch of the game and was never stated as 100% going to happen. Alpha Slot is not part of Going Rogue.
And on the same coin, it never should be. There'd be no point to being a VIP if you could have everything VIPs do on a Premium account. Premium is not intended for you to drop from VIP and have the same gameplay. It's intended for you to be able to play, at a loss, without needing to pay. You will never get the same level of gameplay and ALL the functions that VIPs do. The Incarnate system is VIP only. That is a benefit of paying the fee.
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I did. I don't recall any advertising stating that Going Rogue would unlock Incarnate content. I know that they had statements at panels and cons that they'd attempt to get Alpha in for a sneak peak at the future Incarnate content, but there was never anything directly on the pre-order page that said anything about it to my memory.
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Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
I didn't pre-purchase, so didn't read the contents of the store description for the pre-purchase. Did you? CactusBrawler says that he DID.
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If he SAYS he is quoting the STORE then he is NOT referring to an informal discussion.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
It doesnt, until he provides evidence of anything written in an actual advertisement, he is only referring to an informal discussion of bonus content that was not included at the request of the playerbase. unless he links to something to the contrary of he recollection of several posters here, there was nothing officially advertised about incarnates or the sneak peek being part of gr.
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Well, you know, the store page is not up any longer, so a cached version or a printout is the only way anyone can prove that it advertised Incarnates. I'm just saying that it is a place to start, for those who have any kind of legitimate claim to having bought Incarnate access (Alpha).
The confusion stems from the fact that you had to have GR in order to participate in Incarnate content. Nothing in the ad's for GR mentioned Incarnates...
To those that can't understand how you can be required to have something before you can use something else, yet now it's ok...
Look at it this way. Think of GR as a DvD player and Incarnates is a DvD.
You have to have the player in order to use the disc.
Well, 3 years later Sony comes out with a TV that has aDvD player built in.
Would you then be ticked off that this Disc wasn't installed? No, you'd just go buy a copy of the one you wanted.