Premium Players get less than expected!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 05:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I agree. EDIT: On those pages I could not find one mention of the word Incarnate. /thread.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
No, but here are a few more sources:
Amazon.com page for Going Rogue Gamestop page for Going Rogue Edit: Of course, I don't know why I'm even putting this out there. It seems to me that there is compelling evidence that the Incarnate System is not part of the marketing of Going Rogue. Was it ever a part of the marketing? Well, it's damn near impossible to prove a negative assertion like that, so really, the onus is on you to prove the positive assertion that it was. The ball is in your court to find evidence now, not us. Also, this whole argument is silly, based upon the initial premise that the "if you've paid for it, you'll still have access to it" rule-of-thumb was, in fact, some sort of legal guarantee. It wasn't. It was exactly that--a rule-of-thumb that mostly holds true. It's really disgusting to me that, even if the Incarnate System were part of Going Rogue (which, for the record, I'm not stipulating), people are taking one exception to the rule out of a hundred and using that one thing to say that premium players "got screwed." I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Premium players get to play the game for free and get access to damn near everything in it. Regardless of any one or two things in the game that they don't get access to, to say that they're getting "screwed" is the height of entitlement and arrogance. |
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Not even YOU can prove a negative. Something can be proven or it can be disproven by proving something that excludes said thing. Posts, quotes, links to a source OTHER than the one in question does NOT prove or disprove the contents of the original. The best that could be done would be to point to a lack of evidence proving the affirmative. Even that does not prove or disprove it. It only points out that it is not proven.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The pre-orders/pre-purchases at the time had the EXACT SAME WORDING. So unless you (or anyone else) can show ANY proof what so ever to refute the posts and archived store, it is time to move on from this point.
The proof that it wasn't included has been shown, if you want to deny it, then you have to provide proof that it was included. Good luck with that. |
I'M not CLAIMING it. I, MYSELF am calling for proof.
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You do people from the EU could not purchase from Gamestop/Amazon right? We had to get it directly from NCsoft, so yeah if some one can get the archived page for the EU store, from March 2010 (the 2nd specificly) that would show what it was I bought.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I agree. EDIT: On those pages I could not find one mention of the word Incarnate. /thread.
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Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Post that page if you can find it. I'd like to see what was stated also.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
You do people from the EU could not purchase from Gamestop/Amazon right? We had to get it directly from NCsoft, so yeah if some one can get the archived page for the EU store, from March 2010 (the 2nd specificly) that would show what it was I bought.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Look at this video, (time index 5:55).|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Not even YOU can prove a negative. Something can be proven or it can be disproven by proving something that excludes said thing. Posts, quotes, links to a source OTHER than the one in question does NOT prove or disprove the contents of the original. The best that could be done would be to point to a lack of evidence proving the affirmative. Even that does not prove or disprove it. It only points out that it is not proven.
I'M not CLAIMING it. I, MYSELF am calling for proof. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT9O0HM2-QM
Here, I'll show it:
What does the pretty picture say? Issue 19: Incarnates. Got that? Good
At 6:40, Positron said we'd get a "taste" of the Incarnate System with Going Rogue. Not the full system, but a taste. His post here ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3024907 ) said that it was going to be removed from Issue 18 / Going Rogue.
Like I said, you are trying to prove something without anything to back it up. You claim that you are calling for proof. That was given. If that isn't good enough, then you have to show any proof to the contrary. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders because you seem intent on denying the claim it wasn't included. So back up that claim.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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That is NOT the source that is in question. I'm questioning the ORDER SCREEN AT THE PARAGON STORE! GOT THAT?|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Look at this video, (time index 5:55).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT9O0HM2-QM Here, I'll show it: What does the pretty picture say? Issue 19: Incarnates. Got that? Good At 6:40, Positron said we'd get a "taste" of the Incarnate System with Going Rogue. Not the full system, but a taste. His post here ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3024907 ) said that it was going to be removed from Issue 18 / Going Rogue. Like I said, you are trying to prove something without anything to back it up. You claim that you are calling for proof. That was given. If that isn't good enough, then you have to show any proof to the contrary. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders because you seem intent on denying the claim it wasn't included. So back up that claim. |
No, I didn't THINK so.
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Prove It!
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Originally Posted by snow globe
the pre-orders/pre-purchases at the time had the exact same wording.
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And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
That is NOT the source that is in question. I'm questioning the ORDER SCREEN AT THE PARAGON STORE! GOT THAT?
No, I didn't THINK so. |
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Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Prove It!
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The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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OK, just a *small* bit after the date that you have requested, but it is the 1st one that the Internet archive can drag up for me...|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
You do people from the EU could not purchase from Gamestop/Amazon right? We had to get it directly from NCsoft, so yeah if some one can get the archived page for the EU store, from March 2010 (the 2nd specificly) that would show what it was I bought.
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The "Overview" page of the Going Rogue website, telling you what you got:
http://web.archive.org/web/201005041.../overview.html
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Features Stunning World of Praetoria Explore the new alternate universe of Praetoria with content spanning multiple new zones, new missions that reveal hidden secrets, and new villain groups to battle. Praetoria was built from the ground up to support Ultra Mode graphics that create a heightened level of detail in lighting, reflections, shadows, and water effects. Moral Alignment System Change alignment from Hero to Villain or Villain to Hero based on your moral decisions. Heroes can now cross over to the Rogue Isles, and Villains can experience Paragon City for the first time. Immersive New Starting Experience Start as a Praetorian and decide to follow the Loyalists or join the Resistance. Evolve into a Hero or a Villain based on your moral choices. Spectacular Power Sets Choose from exciting new power sets, including Dual Pistols and Demon Summoning. New Costume Sets Pick from numerous new Praetorian-themed costume pieces. And Much More Collect new badges, experience new additions to the Mission Architect system, enjoy additional free character slots, and more. |
And yes, i do know that it is from the EU version of the Going Rogue site, but as CactusBrawler is EU, i thought it would be more appropriate... I cannot however find much from the NCsoft Store to prepurchase....
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Remind me not to team with you.
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Originally Posted by Toqom
I think the only "pain" this system will make is for VIP, NOT premium players as we now have to check who we're teaming with for certain TFs etc. as someone without IOs could prove less than helpful.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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I did and my fuzzy memory says that at most it mentioned a PREVIEW of the incarnate system. A preview is not buying the system.
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Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
I didn't pre-purchase, so didn't read the contents of the store description for the pre-purchase. Did you? CactusBrawler says that he DID.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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That isn't an advertisement or promise of anything. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
At pax Positron said that the first level of the incarnate system would be included with Going Rogue, it wasn't till 7-12-2010 that they said it had been removed, the expansion had been available to pre-purchase much longer than that.
I'm hunting to see if I can find any archived advertisments from before that announcement. |
What you have there is a dev talking about features still under development that may or may not actually be released in the final release.
So no that does not count as a promise that buying Going Rogue would give you incarnates.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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And even if they wanted the "initial" part of the Incarnate system that came out, they would be limited to the 2nd tier of Alpha
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
I did and my fuzzy memory says that at most it mentioned a PREVIEW of the incarnate system. A preview is not buying the system.
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Positron talking about features they currently have in an Alpha/Beta build of an expansion does not equal a promise that said feature will be there on release. Until an issue goes gold any feature can be removed, changed beyond expectation, added, or otherwise folded, spindled, or mutilated. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Found posts with quotes from devs, trying to find the dev quotes.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...8&postcount=67 http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...5&postcount=68 Woah, that thread derails into a talk about DC, shame that was a not so good mmo. |
And if all you have is Positron at PAX as your only source then you have no support for your case. None of official marketing or advertising mentioned incarnates.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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The game isn't balance around IOs - the difficulty level wasn't changed when the Invention system was added to the game.
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Originally Posted by Toqom
I think the only "pain" this system will make is for VIP, NOT premium players as we now have to check who we're teaming with for certain TFs etc. as someone without IOs could prove less than helpful.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, that was all that was in Issue 18 Closed Beta.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
And even if they wanted the "initial" part of the Incarnate system that came out, they would be limited to the 2nd tier of Alpha
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Apex, Tin Mage, and Ramiel's arc didn't come out until Issue 19. Tier 3 and 4 of the Alpha Incarnate Slot didn't get released until Issue 19.5. It T3 and T4 Alpha were not even in Issue 20 pre-beta until mid-January 2011.
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Both quotes strongly support the idea that the incarnate system wasn't part of Going Rogue. All that ever was intended was going to be a preview. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The Positron Quote from here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3024907 The War Witch quote from here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=2820343 |
Positron - Alpha Slot Sneak Peek
War Witch - "a teensy tinsy introduction to the Incarnate System"
Both statements strongly support that idea that at most what had been intended by the dev team was a preview of the system. Not buying the system.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Actually no.|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Prove It!
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It is the people who are making the extra ordinary claim that Incarnates where part of the Going Rogue expansion that must prove their case. Eveyone who has looked into it and posted their sources has not found any support for that claim.
Therefore the burden of proof rests on the side making the claim that Going Rogue was advertised as having the full incarnate system included. A preview is not unlocking a system and a preview can end at anytime. That is the nature of a preview.
So it is incumbent upon the people making the claim that purchasing GR also purchased Incarnates to produce the proof of that claim.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Once again you admit you knew prior to GR being sold that the incarnate stuff wasn't a part of it.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
At pax Positron said that the first level of the incarnate system would be included with Going Rogue, it wasn't till 7-12-2010 that they said it had been removed, the expansion had been available to pre-purchase much longer than that.
I'm hunting to see if I can find any archived advertisments from before that announcement. |
And the pre-purchase never advertised anything about Incarnate content. Only the two power sets.
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I will look at what Tony provided and if it is, indeed a screenshot or cached copy of the actual order screen for the pre-purchase then I will consider it a done deal.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.
Prove that it didn't say exactly what Tony provided. You are asking people to believe that one source, which you can't provide, disagrees with everything else that has been shown. The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me. |
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7 Feb 2011 is NOT PRE-PURCHASE. That was the official release. What we want is March 2010. When you stop trying to prove apples with oranges we'll see where the proof lies. (Hint: It lies NOWHERE, as yet, on either side. All anyone has offered is anecdotal evidence.)
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.
Prove that it didn't say exactly what Tony provided. You are asking people to believe that one source, which you can't provide, disagrees with everything else that has been shown. The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me. |
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Errm, I thought that Going Rogue was released 17th August 2010...|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
7 Feb 2011 is NOT PRE-PURCHASE. That was the official release.
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Issue 19: Incarnates was released November 30th 2010....
Issue 19.5: Strike Pack was released 1st February 2011....
Edit: And if you read what i linked to earlier up on the thread (EU going Rogue site, 4th May 2010) you would notice that their overview page doesnt list Incarnates...
Infact, it wasnt until July that Positron said that the Sneak Peak was going to be pulled out of Going Rogue...
So what do we go on? What the website advertises or what the developers say?
Now, if the pre-order site states that Going Rogue had Incarnate stuff, but it was removed from the official Going Rogue website before 4th May... dont you find it strange that there was no developer comment about it until July.... especially if it was going ot be an "Official feature" of Going Rogue...
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Are the game mechanics not enough to prove that claim?|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
So it is incumbent upon the people making the claim that purchasing GR also purchased Incarnates to produce the proof of that claim.
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A month ago if I didn't have going Rogue, I didn't have incarnates. Then if I chose to buy GR, I'd have incarnates.
It isn't rocket science.
Either way this entire conversation is ridiculous. It doesn't matter in the slightest - this is a whole new system and the Devs can do what they want. Rather than feeling screwed because Prems don't have Incarnate capabilities, how about they feel grateful for having everything else.
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CORRECT! But saying "It ain't so!" does not disprove it, either.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.
Prove that it didn't say exactly what Tony provided. You are asking people to believe that one source, which you can't provide, disagrees with everything else that has been shown. -Tony's source is faulty, so it adds nothing but false information. The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me. |
You know... regardless of how Going Rogue was set up to be (and I would like to still have access to Incarnate stuff since I have bought CoH, CoV, Architect Edition, and Going Rogue), it would be madness to think I could still get access to it for free. This game is still being developed and maintained, and that needs to be paid for somehow. Letting the newest stuff be accessed for free would be folly on the part of the devs if they want the game to keep going forward, which is something they and I want.
The fact that I can let my account slip at times and still play much of this game which I enjoy so much is a huge boost. I should also note that the monthly points are another bonus that we did not have before, either. I have purchased things with my monthly sub that I could not get on my monthly sub before. I would agree with most that some of the prices on the market are over high, but we still get more than we used to.
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