City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Premium Players get less than expected!

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 05:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
More to the point, it's an individual store's individual insurance company's policy. A lot of outfits that insure retail establishments don't want to spend time talking to your lawyers because you rocked up to the drive-thru on foot and some coked-out d-bag in a Hummer ran you over, so they tell their policyholders, "Don't let people do that."
Oh yeah, as soon as someone gets hurt heads roll for allowing people to walk/skate thru the drive thru.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I'm unhappy with a lot of them too. That doesn't mean I think the game's going to crash. The history of this kind of hybrid model is a big BOOST in monetary input for the studio, not a decrease. I played another game that went F2P in almost this same way (a search of my posts would make it clear which one) and despite the fact I think it was HORRIBLY implemented and have never spent a dime on it since it happened, profits went way up.

I think Freedom was implemented in a very good way, and I've already dropped almost $100 on the game since it went live, even though I think lots of the prices are out of whack. :P
Week one, shiny penny syndrome, spending does not a profitable long term system make. And this current system is not going to be profitable without some heavy tweaking to the pricing structure.

Comparisons to other F2P games are inherently flawed because most of them were still young games, by comparison, when they went F2P. A lot of them still had some buzz going around about them (to-wit: DDO, CO, even LOTRO). This one is ancient in terms of game age and general "buzz" about this game died off long ago, except amongst the subscribing members.

There's little in the market I would buy at their prices and even less I would buy repeatedly. And I'm not stingy in the slightest, just ask Microsoft and Sony who have made entirely too much money off of me in the micro-transaction market. There's too many items with ridiculous prices, too few consumables worth the small price, let alone buying multiple times, and too much reliance on "buy once and done per account".

But the system just launched, so I have faith that Paragon will be monitoring the prices and adjusting them until they reach a profitable price scale.

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LENINA 198-DELTA - 50+3 DP/Kin Corruptor (Main) / Captiosus - 50+3 Energy/Energy Blaster
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Posted

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
Actually, I've gone through the drive-through on rollerblades lots of times.
Thats awesome!

Always remember, we were Heroes.

 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
Actually, I've gone through the drive-through on rollerblades lots of times.
It's fun to do it with several friends on rollerblades too - you can make like a train by holding onto the waist of the person in front of you

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
Actually, I've gone through the drive-through on rollerblades lots of times.
A lot of fast food places will simply refuse to serve someone not in a vehicle.

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It's not really an applicable analogy to the discussion either way, but just sayin'
Well, none of the analogies are really applicable.

The fact remains: Need to buy X in order to get to Y does not mean that buying X means you are also buying Y. It just means there's no way to get Y without buying X. Necessary and sufficient conditions are not the same thing!

 

Posted

The GR box release gated access to starting characters in Preatoria, side switching and powersets. Only later did it gate Incarnate play.

The MA box release gated nothing as everyone had access to MA without needing to buy anything, so it's not the same

A more straightforward argument could be made about Masterminds, Controllers and EATs since they came with the basic game, whichever one you bought.

The biggest problem with the comparison chart is the use of the term "limited" and not expanding upon it to indicate that it's based on length of previous subscription. A list of what features are locked depending on subscription time and what could also be rented Vs bought would have helped to avoid a lot of misunderstanding.

Unlike a fantasy MMO which could introduce new combination classes such as Fighter/Mage, Warrior/Cleric, Assassin/Bard (sings Emo songs that cause critters to kill themselves and each other) we are stuck with what we got unless the devs make more EATs. So push came to shove and the blocked off EATs and ATs with pets from Freemies and those who've played less than 2 1/2 years for pet ATs and from what I can tell, no EATs at all (unless bought, $12.50 for each EAT and $15 for each pet AT).

I wouldn't be surprised by more "gotchas" as more players step down to premium only to find X is no longer available.

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Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Captiosus View Post
Week one, shiny penny syndrome, spending does not a profitable long term system make. And this current system is not going to be profitable without some heavy tweaking to the pricing structure.

Comparisons to other F2P games are inherently flawed because most of them were still young games, by comparison, when they went F2P. A lot of them still had some buzz going around about them (to-wit: DDO, CO, even LOTRO). This one is ancient in terms of game age and general "buzz" about this game died off long ago, except amongst the subscribing members.

There's little in the market I would buy at their prices and even less I would buy repeatedly. And I'm not stingy in the slightest, just ask Microsoft and Sony who have made entirely too much money off of me in the micro-transaction market. There's too many items with ridiculous prices, too few consumables worth the small price, let alone buying multiple times, and too much reliance on "buy once and done per account".

But the system just launched, so I have faith that Paragon will be monitoring the prices and adjusting them until they reach a profitable price scale.
So err. When I played the OTHER hybrid-pricing game which you listed in your post, then that WASN'T shiny penny syndrome... but the game I've been playing for the last 7 years is? I um...

Yeah. What.

I don't personally buy consumables. I won't do it. I don't like it. They will get me to heck and back with costumes, powersets (I bought Beam Rifle and I have no concept for it in the least... but heck, it was on sale, so if I DO think of something? I got it!) and global unlocks. They got me for allll those things. But they're one-time purchases.

Consumables? Nope. I play the game just fine without them, thanks!

So as long as CoX keeps coming out with costumes and powersets, I will keep buying them. And I'll keep subscribing because I want content but I won't buy it in dribs and drabs (dunno why - I refused to buy a single zone or quest pack in the other games, and I won't do it here) I just want the whole thing without a fuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
It's fun to do it with several friends on rollerblades too - you can make like a train by holding onto the waist of the person in front of you
ROFL I think that's the first time you've actually made me laugh, GG. Mental image is win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
The fact remains: Need to buy X in order to get to Y does not mean that buying X means you are also buying Y. It just means there's no way to get Y without buying X. Necessary and sufficient conditions are not the same thing!
I 100% agree with you. I liked the CD/speaker analogy, frankly.

Because I buy a CD player in no way entitles me to the "content" (CDs) that play on that machine. I just now have access to a thing that will play them. If I buy them.

 

Posted

To recap for those who didn't read the whole thread: Incarnate access should be free for all because some fast food restaurants let people on rollerblades use the drive-thru window.

 

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I know I'm coming to this discussion a little late...

This past week on Glee, Heather Morris did an excellent job giving an expression that I think defines the line of "Mmkay I'm pissed that I'm getting this for free but I'm not getting everything I want for free" logic.


You can't pay nothing and expect everything

Fact: The Incarnate System did not launch with Issue 18/Going Rogue - it launched with Issue 19.

Fact: The Incarnate System is a VIP only feature of which a pre-requisite is purchasing Going Rogue.

Fact: Purchasing Going Rogue and going/becoming Premium does not entitle you to the Incarnate System.

Fact: People usually peel the orange and then eat it, but Voodoo Girl eats the orange and then peels it.

There will always be those who feel they are entitled to more even they though expect - and demand - to pay less, or nothing for it.

Because, you know, expressing gratitude is just a vile, offensive thing to do.

/end rant


How the CoH community responds to being presented with a dead horse.
Courtesy of "The Walking Dead."

 

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Originally Posted by Lucky666 View Post
false advertising isn't cool MMKay
Sadly, retroactive false advertising is unavoidable in the case of Freedom, since everything previously sold in regards to CoH was advertised as requiring a subscription and that is no longer the case.

I suppose people could try to sue NCSoft and force them to charge a subscription again, so the original conditions of purchases are kept intact.

Always remember, we were Heroes.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose View Post
The incarnate system is not listed on the box
That makes no difference

Going Rogue Pre Purchase was announced March 02, 2010. It included the Alpha Slot

In July the Alpha Slot got moved back because of the beta tests

One of our Favourite Posters from the boards, Golden Girl stated...Almost certainly - it's one of the big selling features of GR.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...2&postcount=21

and check this video :

At 6.34 Positron himself states that the first Incarnate Level is included in GR...

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by emberly View Post
to recap for those who didn't read the whole thread: Incarnate access should be free for all because some fast food restaurants let people on rollerblades use the drive-thru window.
yay!

 

Posted

Also, if you previously bought GR and aren't a VIP you no longer have access to Demon Summoning or Dual Pistols. With the incarnate system there's at least the argument that it wasn't technically part of GR, but those powersets were. That, I think, is a little ridiculous.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
Also, if you previously bought GR and aren't a VIP you no longer have access to Demon Summoning or Dual Pistols. With the incarnate system there's at least the argument that it wasn't technically part of GR, but those powersets were. That, I think, is a little ridiculous.
Well demon summoning goes with MMs... but really? Preems don't get DP?

 

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Originally Posted by Death_Badger View Post
That makes no difference
Read the User Agreement sometime. They allow you access to content at their discretion, and you in fact have no fundamental right to use the game at all.

'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.

 

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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed View Post
Sadly, retroactive false advertising is unavoidable in the case of Freedom, since everything previously sold in regards to CoH was advertised as requiring a subscription and that is no longer the case.

I suppose people could try to sue NCSoft and force them to charge a subscription again, so the original conditions of purchases are kept intact.
Well said.

Can't really add anything here, but just for the sake beating a dead horse: As far as I know, Incarnate content is presently the only thing left in the entire game that is VIP-exclusive. With my Veteran status, I could play everything else for free until the game dies. Though it's true that my Vet status cost a lot of money over the years, it's also true that NCSoft would have to be crazy to tell all of their long-term customers that they should stop paying for the game.

And though it's true that my Vet status cost a lot of money over the years, it was money I happily handed over in return for the privilege of playing the game at the time. I don't deserve anything now for having paid that money; it's nice that I've gotten some rewards, but Paragon/NC didn't owe them to me.

On some level, it's understandable that people would be annoyed that this-or-that perceived privilege is barred to them after (in some cases) years of brand loyalty. When you take a step back, though, it really makes no sense to complain about a free game. A Premium player with a minimum, one-time investment (enough to get access to tells/SG chat, $5?) actually gets much more, forever than I got at the game's launch for my $15 per month. That's pretty stunning, and pretty cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

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Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
And though it's true that my Vet status cost a lot of money over the years, it was money I happily handed over in return for the privilege of playing the game at the time. I don't deserve anything now for having paid that money; it's nice that I've gotten some rewards, but Paragon/NC didn't owe them to me.
You know, this... THIS... is SUCH a good point.

Whatever we paid in the past, for expansions or for our monthly access... we got the GAME in exchange for it! We've gotten to play and enjoy the game! That's been what we paid for!

Some people are acting like, for the past 7 years, they've just been holding our credit cards hostage while they siphoned (very slowly) the money out of it and we just stood there getting nothing but possible future consideration as veterans of the game!

Seriously? Have you not ENJOYED the game you've been paying for? Why are you owed more than that - which is what you were actually paying for?





...and on that note, if you DID pay for the game and didn't enjoy it or play it? You are stupid and I feel no pity for you.

 

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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
The Incarnate System was originally intended to launch with Going Rogue, but was pulled until the next Issue for a reason I can't recall.
Umm, no. The actual chain of events has been posted in this thread, and Arcanaville posted the entire sequence in detail here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
The decision to switch to the hybrid free/subscribe model happened as late as June of this year (they flew some players in to talk about it around that time, but they were all sworn to secrecy), but they'd been preparing for that move for several months prior.
Arcanaville also talked about this, but it was on the Beta forums I believe. And they have actually been working on Freedom for well over a year (Closer to 2 at this point). They just showed it to the lucky few this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneko View Post
I may save on typing and just use this from now on.
Could you please lower the size so it doesn't break the forum. That is very annoying.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
Also, if you previously bought GR and aren't a VIP you no longer have access to Demon Summoning or Dual Pistols. With the incarnate system there's at least the argument that it wasn't technically part of GR, but those powersets were. That, I think, is a little ridiculous.

I wan't locked out of DP on beta when the devs made everyone a Preem.

/mypurchases shows that own that I own dual pistols, it also says I own Demon Summoning

 

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Originally Posted by Justice Blues View Post
Could you please lower the size so it doesn't break the forum. That is very annoying.
It works fine for me, but I actually did not realize it was that large. When I viewed the image by itself originally, it was automatically resized by my browser and I didn't notice.

And now it's been replaced by a smaller version.

'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Can't really add anything here, but just for the sake beating a dead horse: As far as I know, Incarnate content is presently the only thing left in the entire game that is VIP-exclusive. With my Veteran status, I could play everything else for free until the game dies. Though it's true that my Vet status cost a lot of money over the years, it's also true that NCSoft would have to be crazy to tell all of their long-term customers that they should stop paying for the game.
There is also the Tier 9 VIP stuff like the Celestial costume parts. And you would have to buy a license for the EATs and any new stuff added from now on like powersets and zone content. Still much cheaper than the monthly subscription. And I agree with everything else you said. I am just not that articulate.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Aneko View Post
It works fine for me, but I actually did not realize it was that large. When I viewed the image by itself originally, it was automatically resized by my browser and I didn't notice.

And now it's been replaced by a smaller version.
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I only have a 19" monitor and keep my desktop at 1024x768, which causes problems in these days of 21"+ and widescreen monitors.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
Also, if you previously bought GR and aren't a VIP you no longer have access to Demon Summoning or Dual Pistols. With the incarnate system there's at least the argument that it wasn't technically part of GR, but those powersets were. That, I think, is a little ridiculous.
If this is the case, then COH Freedom is growing increasingly unattractive.

I was under the impression that these sets would still be available to Premium players who had bought the expansion. Particularly irritating since these sets were the only reason I had any interest in buying the thing in the first place.

Expecting me to buy new powersets from the store is fine.

Expecting me to shell out an additional £16.80 to re-access my demon summoning mastermind is not so pleasant. I can swallow the idea that MMs are more 'resource-intensive' and thus charge-worthy, but how do you justify charging for the Demon Summoning powerset twice? Particularly as Demon Summoning *was* part of the Going Rogue expansion that I paid for.

I know, I know - "What do you expect? You act as an entitled child, wanting everything for nothing. Here, listen to my analogy about how people like you are ruining society, probably involving a fast-food restaurant, or a car without wheels, or something equally silly".

I realise I am getting more now than I had done previously when unsubbed - however, if Paragon were being a bit less greedy perhaps *they* would be getting more from me than they had done previously when I was unsubbed.

 

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Originally Posted by Tutara View Post
Expecting me to shell out an additional £6.80 to re-access my demon summoning mastermind is not so pleasant.
It's not "additional" if you're no longer paying for a subscription.

'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutara View Post
If this is the case, then COH Freedom is growing increasingly unattractive.
Fortunately, it is not the case.

You keep Dual Pistols, macskull is completely mistaken on that point. You also keep Demon Summoning, although unless you unlock Masterminds you can't actually use it. But at no point do you have to pay twice for a single power set - if you unlock Masterminds by purchase, reward tier, or VIP, Demon Summoning will already be unlocked and available. Similarly, you keep Kinetic Melee and Electric Control, although you may not have access to Controllers.