Updated Forum Rules and Proposed Forum Changes
By
afocks,
Posted on: 2011-09-22 18:22 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
The one thing I'd like to suggest would be moving Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs out from under the Development section and put it under the Player Help section instead.
Many people incorrectly assume that since it is under the heading of Development that it is the way to get Developer attention or get official support, even though the description of that section states it isn't for official support. When you look at the other sections that are under the Development section, it's easy to see why they think that. We have the Dev Digest, Community Digest, the new Issue 21 Bug Report Forums, the Developer's Corner, the Global Training Room (Test Server) and the Character Copy Tool. All seem well suited to being in a Development section. Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs doesn't. Player Help seems much more suitable as a section to put that in.
It might be less confusing for new and old players to find it under a Player Help section where they are seeing players are helping players.
Many also seem to not be able to find the Suggestions and Ideas forums since they are buried in the For Fun section. It's not intuitive for someone new to the forums to find where to post their ideas and suggestions and so they end up posting them in Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs or Player Questions.
I have my own thoughts as to where S&I should go, but that's not a subject for this thread.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
I would strongly prefer that the AT forums not be merged. One that comes immediately to mind is the Stalker section. True it doesn't see a lot of traffic, but that's a good reason to leave it separate. If I'm interested in Stalkers and I look and see nothing but Scrapper threads, and I post a question about Stalkers and it gets quickly pushed off the first page by more Scrapper threads, it will be very hard to find any good information or discussion about Stalkers.
Scrapper advocates won't care, because it will become the de facto Scrapper section.
My suggestion: concentrate and double-time efforts to get the forums FIXED, first. The
log-in continues to be a major source of problems for you guys, for whatever reason,
which carries down to us. It's gone from "random logouts" to "frequent random logouts"
to "VERY frequent random logouts" to "forget it, not letting you log on period." The last
requires us to fix ourselves(although you made no real notice to help people with this),
and it's right at "remember you? What's that button mean? I'm not going to even
acknowledge it exists."
Seriously, before you guys mess with the forums more, you need to get control of them.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think refining the AT forums would bring them in line with the way ATs are grouped in the avatar creation screen in the game.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I'm not a fan of that feature.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
That is a good question for the Euro and Oceanic Communities to chime in on. We would never make that change without a pretty sizable amount of support from them.
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I also think that the Euro and Pacific areas could be rolled into the general discussion section, especially as the server lists are now merged.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
One favor,
Let's not allow this conversation to solely revolve around possibly consolidating AT forums. We would like to see other suggestions for simplifying the current forum structure. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Will the AT forums be subforums? I.e.
RANGED
- Blasters
- Corruptors
- Dominators
With each leading to their own sub-forum?
I'd like to add support for Metal Maiden's suggetion.
Merging the AT forums is asking for trouble. While 'less is more' may seem better in theory, the amount on unncessary clicking through, which would result from such amalgamation would be unweildy.
Some other items.
"...examples of topics which are prohibited to discuss on the Official City of Heroes Freedom Forum include, but are not limited to:
Real world topics including current world events and sensitive historical events..."
Regards the above, does this mean we can't talk about anything happening in the world around us? For example, contact between players re"their status after an environmental disaster"...That's gonna get deleted?
Also, when some posters see an idea on the forum and wish to express their support for said idea, but perhaps are rushed for time or simply have nothing more to add, the /signed post is normally used. If such posts are really frowned upon so severly, does every suggestion made by a player on the forum, be assumed to have full support or conversely zero support by the forum frequenting player base and thereby influence our Devs wrt feedback?
Pinnacle & Virtue:
A bunch of Heroes - Alpha Team, Legion of Order.
A bunch of Villains -Black Citadel , Pinnache.
I'll have to agree with all the others, combining the AT forums into sections wouldn't be easier to follow.
Leave that as-is I say.
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
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MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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That's the last thing you want to do. Someone creating a character at the start of the game is going to use those playstyle subclassifications as a tool to help them make their decision regarding what archetype to roll.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think refining the AT forums would bring them in line with the way ATs are grouped in the avatar creation screen in the game.
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By contrast, someone coming to the forums has already made that decision and just wants to find information regarding the archetype they've already chosen to play, and having to sift through the whole playstyle sorting again is only going to confuse them, especially when they land in their archetype's forum only to find that many of the topics about their particular powerset might be in reference to that same powerset on a different archetype that just happens to share the same forum.
Use>>>Ascetics where support forums are concerned, and merging the AT forums to bring them in line with the in-game character creation screen is more about ascetics than usefulness.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
This is what I have to far as a way to reduce clutter. I know vBulletin can handle this, as most other forums. You can consolidate all forums to make it easier to get through. Also, the CSS is another reason that the site looks so bloated. Have someone tinker around with the values of cell and table sizes. Also, font size is a killer too.
You can keep all the existing forums, just have them available inside each parent category instead of bloating the frontpage.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
The scrapper boards are extremely active, and I would hate to see it merged with any other at board.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
I'd like to chime in and cast my vote for the AT-specific forums remaining separate.
Not all new players will use the "playstyle" tab of the character creator and nothing in-game (outside of the character creator) describes to a new player which "playstyle" their current character uses. But every player will have to choose an *Archetype* during character creation and their in-game ID and info screens will tell them what their AT is... so those are the forums new players will be searching for here.
Over 8 years of playing with more than 130 characters across 14 servers. Nineteen 50s with plenty more working their way up!
Find me in-game as @Super MC
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This has nothing to do with the Paragon Team. It's a larger VBulletin issue that's well known within it's development community. Our web developers are investigating solutions to it, however we've got nothing to do with it here. |
Originally Posted by Puppycrusader
My suggestion: concentrate and double-time efforts to get the forums FIXED, first. The
log-in continues to be a major source of problems for you guys, for whatever reason, which carries down to us. It's gone from "random logouts" to "frequent random logouts" to "VERY frequent random logouts" to "forget it, not letting you log on period." The last requires us to fix ourselves(although you made no real notice to help people with this), and it's right at "remember you? What's that button mean? I'm not going to even acknowledge it exists." Seriously, before you guys mess with the forums more, you need to get control of them. |
The Paragon Community Team can, however, streamline and improve forum structure through admin tools.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
I also think a new board dedicated to the store and items in the store would be great.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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This image is actually what I assumed Zwill was proposing. You have the larger categories that encompass the ATs (Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, etc, etc), and then when you click on that category, you have the option to click on the specific AT you want. As long as it's made very clear which ATs are in which category, as listed in the mock image Commander came up with.|
Originally Posted by Commander
This is what I have to far as a way to reduce clutter. I know vBulletin can handle this, as most other forums. You can consolidate all forums to make it easier to get through. Also, the CSS is another reason that the site looks so bloated. Have someone tinker around with the values of cell and table sizes. Also, font size is a killer too.
You can keep all the existing forums, just have them available inside each parent category instead of bloating the frontpage. |
As for people having problems with how the ATs are categorized: The new system in freedom is perfectly fine. Brutes can be BOTH tanks and melee DPS (for example, when you select the playstyle) And I don't see how arranging them in that fashion would be confusing.
The only confusing part would be if say the same AT appeared in multiple categories. If I wanted to look for a Brute build, and saw Brutes in both Melee DPS and in Tanks, where would I look? Now you might say that's simple, just pick the one based on your playstyle. But if I'm a new player with absolutely no prior experience, it could be confusing. Is my particular powerset combo more a tanking build or a DPS build?
Besides, Tanks can't have a sub-category all to themselves.
I would suggest that the EATs recieve their own category, however. It's a fairly exclusive set of ATs, and as long as each one has their own subforum, it should be fine.
I'm completely in agreement with the consolidation.
EDIT: One problem I have with the image Commander posted is how the ATs are arranged in their sub-forums. Try to keep multiple instances of ATs OUT of categories, or else new players will likely wind up jumping all over the AT Forum trying to find what they want. As long as the AT they're looking for is in ONE place, all the information they need will be available to them.
Aka, Kheldians and Arachnos should NOT appear in three different categories.
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Odd. I post on other vBulletin forums that don't have that problem at all. I have one forum that I haven't had to log into since back around the beginning of Spring 2011 or so.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
This has nothing to do with the Paragon Team. It's a larger VBulletin issue that's well known within it's development community. Our web developers are investigating solutions to it, however we've got nothing to do with it here.
The Paragon Community Team can, however, streamline and improve forum structure through admin tools. |
I think someone posted something in the humongous thread over in Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs about the problems and what seems to be the solution from the Admin side.
EDIT: Coolio posted it, found the post.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Others have said this already, but I'm going to add my 2c. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
The current Archetype and Powers forums can seem very intimidating to a new user/some current users. In some cases these forums also are not the most active. A tactic I have found to be successful in the past is to group these forums into playstyle or role type, transferring over the most relevant and current posts. The division would go something like this:
- Tanks: Brutes and Tankers - Ranged DPS: Blasters, Corrupters and Dominators (Doms could also go under support) - Support: Controllers, Defenders and Masterminds - Melee DPS: Stalkers and Scrappers - HEATs and VEATs: Peacebringer, Warshade, Soldier, Widow - Build Sharing/Critique |
This is far more confusing than leaving it as is. Now, if a person has questions about their AT, they go straight to the AT forum. Simple.
The divisions listed above are arbitrary and make little sense to those that have actually played the ATs and appreciate their differences.
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| [*]posts which discuss or illustrate illegal activity; providing links to sites that contain any of the aforementioned |
I hate to add to the bandwagon and use this as an example, but grouping the ATs together by playstyle is a Very Bad Idea.
If I'm looking for a specific AT, I'm going to look for it there. The thing with the ATs is while they have their intended purposes, they are versatile and are capable of many different things.
Example here: if I go to look at the "support" option and see dominators, I'm going to assume they don't do a lot of damage until I start playing one and see that it's doing a better job of being a blaster than my blaster, aka blastroller. I'm not sure how consolidating this is going to be more helpful instead of a potential hinderance. Several ATs run into this problem, several times over.
If you're looking for a way to consolidate the front page bloat, maybe collapsing the sub-forum by default so that just "AT forum, etc" appears would be a better idea. That way you don't see all of the subforum until you click on it, all of the information is still there, yet the amount of frontend clutter is reduced.
Without quoting Bubbawheat's post a few posts above mine, I'm going to agree with how he proposed laying out things.
Huron: "...with Coffee primary / Attitude secondary"
Charnage: "Please. Think of the poor defenseless desks."
"The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed... In the year of the Praetorian War, it became something greater... our last, best hope for victory."
Suggestions: -
- Lose "Supergroup & Villaingroup Recruitment" and "Player Events"; the server forums are perfectly adequate.
- Move "Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs" to the "Player Help" section.
- Merge "Mac Users" with "Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs".
- Merge the two PvP subsections.
- Merge the two "Lounge"s into "City Life".
- Merge "Screenshots and Fan Creations" with "Multi-Media"
- If at all possible use Commander's AT sectioning, that's brilliant.
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What's easier than one forum per AT? I agree that merging AT boards into each other is going to make a mess that's gonna be hard to unpick when you are looking for specific information.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Forums should be easy to understand at a glance.
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Umm why are you fixing something that is not broken? The AT sub fourms are clear to understand and there is no need to combine them.
The login issue with the boards is an on going issue that should be address as alot posters have stated before me.
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Sorry Z, but the only thing I can think of to reduce bloat without making things more opaque rather than less is to add an additional layer of menus where useful, as has been suggested by others.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
One favor,
Let's not allow this conversation to solely revolve around possibly consolidating AT forums. We would like to see other suggestions for simplifying the current forum structure. |
One thing I do see a lot of confusion over however is the "Development -> Gameplay / Technical Issues & Bugs" forum. In my opinion this should be changed to "Bug Reports" only, with the rest of the threads/posts moved to Player Questions. Adding a link to the official NCSoft Technical Support site somewhere prominent on the forums would be a nice addition as well. Player Questions might also benefit from being broken up into subforums.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
I'll also chime in on the PLEASE DON'T MERGE THE AT FORUMS. I think adding in the additional "descriptor" mentioned above would work to help new players find what they need.
Part of the reason I don't think merging them is a good idea is this: you already get into "squabbles" about which AT is better, for example Defenders vs. Corruptor, and you want to throw them into the same kettle? Great. Add more fuel to that fire...
As others have mentioned, I also believe it will muddy the waters even more then you think it would and will increase player confusion.
As for the rest of the proposed forum rules:
Under this area:
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Can you elaborate a bit more on this? There are certainly some posts in threads that add to the "conversational" aspect of things, and others that don't add anything. Can you give examples?
5. Non-Constructive posts are prohibited.
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In the same area:
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| Thread necromancy, or necro-posting is responding to a thread that has not been active (has had no posts) in at least 30 days. Necro-posting is a form of thread bumping and as such is prohibited. If you wish to discuss a considerably older topic, create a new post and link to the older discussion. |
In this Area:
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7. Inappropriate and Off-Topic Content Real world topics including current world events and sensitive historical events |
These are the first questions I have that leapt out to me.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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^^ What he said. |
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
(LOTS of sensible stuff)
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Only I'd suggest moving suggestions and ideas out of For Fun and back into Player Help, because while I understand you moved S&I into For Fun so you wouldn't have to moderate it as much... it doesn't belong there.
Also, if there's any way to make the digests and the calendar show in the User CP, that'd be neat. The User CP is the most useful part of vBB.
You might consider a Paragon Market forum.
And please, please, please, for the love of Zeus, clean up all the old, useless, expired stickies! They're getting out of hand.
Prophecy & Dreams | Prophecy & Dreams Discussion
Nerd Flirting | More Nerd Flirting | Nerds Talking About Flirting
Unbidden | Star Patrol | Real World Hero
My suggestions:
Consolidate Multi-media with Screenshots and Fan Art section and just call it "Multi-Media and Fan Creations" which encapsulates Screenshots and Fan art as multiple forms of media.
Forum Games needs to stay where it is, there's few threads, but tons of posts, and we need to keep them over there by themselves.
Consolidate European and Oceanic into the European and Oceanic Lounge.
Remove the Player Events category. In my experience, things posted there get very few views, the calendar can be used more or the appropriate server threads or city life.
Remove the Supergroup and Villaingroup category and suggest that people post in the respective server forums where appropriate.
Remove the News etc. discussion forum, place those threads in the Developer's Corner forum.
Remove the Archetypes and Powers general discussion forum and consolidate those threads to either the respective AT forums, or the Player Questions forum.
Consolidate the PvP forums and place in the "For Fun!" heading.
If all my suggestions were taken, the new forums would look like this:
Development
Announcements
Calendar
Dev Digest
Community Digest
Developers Corner (also news/announcements discussion)
New Issue Bug forum
Bug forum (also Mac bug forum)
Test server
Character Copy tool
Player Help
Player Questions (also gen AT discussion)
Badges
Bases
Mission Architect
Market/IOs
Incarnate System (new forum)
Player Guides
Archetypes
(in this order)
Melee: Brute
Melee: Scrapper
Melee: Stalker
Melee: Tanker
Ranged: Blaster
Ranged/Control: Dominator
Ranged/Support: Defender
Ranged/Support: Corruptor
Control/Support (Premium AT): Controller
Pet/Support (Premium AT): Mastermind
Epic AT (VIP): Kheldian
Epic AT (VIP): Soldiers of Arachnos
For Fun
City Life
European & Oceanic Lounge
S&I
PvP
Comic Culture
Roleplaying
Multi-Media & Fan Creations
Forum Games
Servers
as is