Going Rogue - a year later
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-09-05 13:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The BAF, Lambda, Keyes and Underground Trials were all designed at the same time, during the work on GR |
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
That's six months of planning to make the two new trials.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Correct |
Originally Posted by seebs
I do not see anything to suggest that Praetoria was ever intended to be more than 1-20 levels. They'd been saying that all along, so far as I can tell.
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The zones are also designed from a new player's point of view - they start in the shadow of Tyrant's Tower, surrounded by the gleaming buildings of Nova Praetoria, and work their way away from there as they learn the truth behind the lies of the dictatorship, with their progress through the zones and away from Tyrant being shown in the increasing amount of dirt and decay, leading to the slums and abandoned buildings of Neutropolis.
The zones were designed as visual clues and cues for the progress of the 1-20 stories.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Someone is going to have to explain to me (I only have done one character through Praetoria just recently since I started playing again).
What exactly is wrong with the story? I played through it and rather enjoyed it as a Loyalist.
Could someone elaborate what is wrong?
Still doesn't change the fact that enemy mobs are still painfully unbalanced a year later.
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Can you see the problem with the system in your own words, though? Getting your character kitted out was a PITA when I'm sure it was intended to be fun... And it ain't. That's my biggest beef with the Incarnate system - it's not fun. It's work. It's a crapton of work. It's even worse if, like me, you can justify pretty much all of your level 50 characters having that kind of power. Someone (I think it's the TechBot) had someone else's quote in his sig, to the effect of "Incarnates are farming for threads" or something to that effect, and it's true, more or less. When you design a system specifically intended to be a grind, people WILL burn out, simple as that.|
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Well I'm in that boat, I have ONE character I'm making an Incarnate, I don't WANT to unlock more stuff, I'm perfectly happy with the tier 4's she has. It was a big enough pain in the backside to get her to that stage, you can bugger off if you think I want to go through that 20 times to every single tier 4. I got what I wanted out of the costume rewards in the very first day they were released, I have no interest in grinding out content for the Ascension armour so that means I'm simply not playing the Incarnate content, adding new trials does absolutely nothing for me.
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I said it a long time ago that "end game" can never be good, because it has to be either very slow, very difficult or very boring. Ours ended up being all three.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Issue 21 as a whole is a 'meh' for me, it's not got new Incarnate slots...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's an opinions thing. Some folks liked it, others didn't. Everyone's got their reasons.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Someone is going to have to explain to me (I only have done one character through Praetoria just recently since I started playing again).
What exactly is wrong with the story? I played through it and rather enjoyed it as a Loyalist. Could someone elaborate what is wrong? |
I, personally, loved it, too. And I loved GR, as well. I just wish there were more team content in it, 'cause I hardly ever see other folks in Praetoria.
Honestly, my biggest gripe with Going Rogue a year later is that it still doesn't go to 50. I don't start any new characters there, and I have a couple of characters parked around level 16-18 in Praetoria waiting for the higher level content because it just doesn't make any sense for them to get to a certain level of power and then just abandon their home. This is especially true for the Resistance members IMO.
If the Devs create Praetorian content that goes all the way to 50, I will definitely start more characters there.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
I liked GR. It got new shiny art stuff, improved Missions that make better storyarcs, the abiity to switch sides (though I wonder if that is a smart idea) and the whole incarnate business.
It would probably have been better if it was not just level 1-20 though.
Everybody got some good points. But I still liked it. Trope or not, Goatee or not. I am only saddened by the fact that levels 1-20 will be new ghost towns with i21 as nobody will ever play there again.
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I assume you mean tfs, as nearly every mission can be done with a group.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
It's an opinions thing. Some folks liked it, others didn't. Everyone's got their reasons.
I, personally, loved it, too. And I loved GR, as well. I just wish there were more team content in it, 'cause I hardly ever see other folks in Praetoria. |
I'd say that even if they had tfs (they'd have to be levles 1-20 or not much further out from that range) you still wouldn't see that many folks in Praetoria.
Not enough team content has nothing to do really with why folks avoid that place (and will be avoiding it more with I21 on it's way shortly).
The fact that the stories paint a dystopian, dreary place is a major factor. Expected as it's a dictatorship, but wow is that place dark when looking back at some of those stories. Seeing as how it's already been established that many folks HATE playing a villain . . . well you put it all together.
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The only things I don't like about Praetoria was having to leave at 20 and if I went redside I missed out on the low level mayhems needed to get the exploration badges for the accolade.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Someone is going to have to explain to me (I only have done one character through Praetoria just recently since I started playing again).
What exactly is wrong with the story? I played through it and rather enjoyed it as a Loyalist. Could someone elaborate what is wrong? |
Other than that I enjoy Praetoria a lot.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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The Praetorian zones are purchasable content - unless someone is on the VIP server, then Praetoria will be the only starting area where there won't be masses and masses of freebies, which might suit some of the more sensitive types |
Originally Posted by Gunbunny
I am only saddened by the fact that levels 1-20 will be new ghost towns with i21 as nobody will ever play there again.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Good god, this. And it isn't even farming I can do when I'm super bored. It is farming I have to do with 40 other douchebags.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Can you see the problem with the system in your own words, though? Getting your character kitted out was a PITA when I'm sure it was intended to be fun... And it ain't. That's my biggest beef with the Incarnate system - it's not fun. It's work. It's a crapton of work. It's even worse if, like me, you can justify pretty much all of your level 50 characters having that kind of power. Someone (I think it's the TechBot) had someone else's quote in his sig, to the effect of "Incarnates are farming for threads" or something to that effect, and it's true, more or less. When you design a system specifically intended to be a grind, people WILL burn out, simple as that.
I said it a long time ago that "end game" can never be good, because it has to be either very slow, very difficult or very boring. Ours ended up being all three. That alone makes it the best Issue within the last year, at least from my perspective |
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Sort of. Folks typically just don't randomly team up that often to run a story, preferring to team for Tips/Newspapers/easy to run missions instead. At least from what I've seen. Doesn't help a lot of the stories have parts that require you to be solo, either. I guess really tough enemies and only going up to 20 also makes it so teams aren't seen as often. Just feels like Praetoria isn't friendly to groups.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I assume you mean tfs, as nearly every mission can be done with a group.
I'd say that even if they had tfs (they'd have to be levles 1-20 or not much further out from that range) you still wouldn't see that many folks in Praetoria. Not enough team content has nothing to do really with why folks avoid that place (and will be avoiding it more with I21 on it's way shortly). |
I think the repeatable Newspaper-like missions helped encourage teaming, tough, but they should've been intro'd from the start. Too little too late.
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The general complaint is that all the paths in the 1-20 content lead to the same place - the first starting storyline of the Incarnate content is all about fighting Tyrant and the loyalists, with the help of the Resistance - the option of playing a loyalist stormtrooper who supports the dictatorship and fights the Resistance doesn't exist, even though it does exists in the 1-20 content.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Someone is going to have to explain to me (I only have done one character through Praetoria just recently since I started playing again).
What exactly is wrong with the story? I played through it and rather enjoyed it as a Loyalist. Could someone elaborate what is wrong? |
Some players feel it's unfair to have the game basically force them to change sides - Hero players are never forced to become Villains, and Villain players are never forced to become Heroes, but loyalists are forced to turn against Tyrant and the dictatorship they've been serving.
Just think of it as being like 1-20 content on the Rikti homewolrd, where you're not allowed to take part in their invasion at level 50, and have to be friendly to Primal Earth
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
On the up side:
- Love the new powers
- Love the new mission tech
- Love the graphic upgrade
- Love side-switching, although I'd have allowed it at lower levels too
- Hate the vending machine robots as stores. Ugh. A real building, please?
- Hate the tailor who has a store but still works on the street corner anyway. Really? Did she lose her keys?
- Hate that Praetorian police can't climb stairs without getting stuck between the handrail and the wall.
- HATE the Incarnate System, in most every way possible. I get that people wanted something like it, but... ugh.
But what new zones did we get in GR? Another generic city. Sure, it's prettier, but it's still just another urban landscape, something this game was not lacking in any way. Even worse, this new city deliberately separates us from the rest of the game for 20 levels, completely cut off from things like super groups and radio missions and task forces. So it's not only another pointless city, but it's a fairly impractical one as far as the game as a whole goes, as well.
I'm digging the new First Ward in beta, as there are hints of other types of landscapes there. But in the back of my mind, I can't help thinking, "this looks really cool... too bad it's part of that stupid Praetorian mess."
d
I've been surprised how downright fun Praetorian content is when exemplared, this is in contrast to how painful it can be at its 'natural' levels. I maintain if all the content was bumped up ten levels, 10-30, it would be a blast. As it is the enemy/mission designs throw enemies at you with abilities that outrank the 1-20 range, at levels where the players have few inspirations, weak enhancements, and lack most of their defining powers. (In many cases.)
Goldside's difficulty curve challenges powergamers, and has some choices that are a bit iffy. (mez protection, mez effects, stacking ambush waves, heavier buffs/debuffs, etc.) Though I'll be honest, it depends on characters. High ST damage characters have an easier time with ghouls. Non-mez might not know why dominators and controllers wither when facing destroyers. It is easier if you know what content your character will be ill-equipped to handle, and avoid it. This is confusing when it was marketed as a new place for those fresh to the game to start. It is positively the hardest part of the game for someone new to try, and can leave undo frustrations with aforementioned difficulty.
The more dynamic interaction in praetoria are very welcome, but as most dialogue and exposition is limited to the mission-holder's interaction, there can be missing portions for a team experience. Add in the more restrictive conceptual lore that can interfere with a character's concept/backstory, and you have a lore that goes from being barely present to overbearing depending on your interactions.
To be honest, I will visit praetoria for badges/unlocks, and to help friends starting characters there, but given the option I will not start any new praetorians after Freedom launches.
As to the incarnate parts that came with GR: Having fully incarnated a few characters, and barely unlocked the options on others, I can appreciate the content a bit more, but am equally aware of the weaknesses. Incarnate powers are cool. And fun. The difference between rare and very rare incarnate parts is daunting, almost to a unwarranted degree in my opinion, but I've found I cope by deciding which incarnate slots I actually want to go tier 4 on. (destiny seems the winner here.) Unlocking them can be very fun with a good group, and disheartening with a bad group. Fortunately, most people know their way around the content to make the positives far more common, in my experience.
The content can only be run when people gather in a pre-determined time or in an established launching area, though, as the LFG system does not function without coordinating with an established league that is open. I have not been able to use the system since it was started, which is a shame as the main complaints, league team size, was supposedly addressed. The system NEEDS to tell how many are waiting, so you know if it's worth a shot. In absence of this, people just go to the aforementioned gathering spots to see if anyone is standing about.
On a side note, the Tin Mage and Apex TF's are a prime target for a single team/small group incarnate trial, but the devs seem unwilling to make them as such.
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I think Praetoria side steps this in a really creative way.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The fact that the stories paint a dystopian, dreary place is a major factor. Expected as it's a dictatorship, but wow is that place dark when looking back at some of those stories. Seeing as how it's already been established that many folks HATE playing a villain . . . well you put it all together.
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It might just be me, but around the time of GR beta and release, I was big into cyberpunk movies (after being big into those trains for all these years). So Praetoria feels way more like being able to pick sides in a cyberpunk sci-fi world: you can be the deadly and corrupt police force or the plucky yet bloodthirsty resistance. The fact that there are visual cues to everything from Judge Dredd to the Matrix to AI, etc, helps this.
That part I really liked and wished they actually finished the story to a satisfying conclusion. If they did, I might use it more as a starting point for new alts.
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Nothing's wrong with the story...when you play through it. In fact, the Praetorian arcs themselves are quite good.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Someone is going to have to explain to me (I only have done one character through Praetoria just recently since I started playing again).
What exactly is wrong with the story? I played through it and rather enjoyed it as a Loyalist. Could someone elaborate what is wrong? |
It's more to do with the fact that all of what was good about them gets ripped out when you leave at 20.
Preatoria is a good concept let down by some massive game play flaws, the enemies are over powered (Seriously Destroyers WTF?) and there are constant ambushes that essentially neuter one AT.
I'm looking forward to Freedom, it'll make it a lot quicker to play a villain AT hero side. I never want to go through Preatoria again.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I don't really have a stake in the argument of whether Praetorea was intended as end-game content and then retrofitted to be low-level content. I don't track the history of the game closely enough to really have an informed opinion on it.
However, I do want to point out that there's another possible explanation for the Praetoreans being so comparatively brutal at such early levels. That theory would be that the people who designed them either had never designed anything but upper-level critters, or had not done so in a long, long time. The designers who designed level 10 Skulls and Hellions were probably gone, or if they were still around they had probably been designing Longbow, Arachnos and Vanguard in their recent history. It's my opinion that those critter factions (and now the IDF after them) bear the fingerprints of a steady creep in the combat viciousness of critters in an effort to track the increasing power of player characters.
If you take someone who has spent the last several years in CoH designing such critters (or who has never done anything else in CoH) and ask them to create a critter appropriate to a level 10 character, you're likely to get something with (possibly significantly) inflated threat levels compared to older critter designs. It's not the guaranteed outcome, but lacking certain controls, I would find it an unsurprising outcome.
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Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well, they're getting there - First Ward fills the 20-29 gap, and the Praetorian part of the Incarnate storyline seems to be getting closer to some kind of final showdown - so a 30-39 zone and a 40-50 zone would round things off quite nicely.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
That part I really liked and wished they actually finished the story to a satisfying conclusion
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Or as they work on several Issues at once, Going Rogue/I18 was being designed at the same time as I19 and I20, and they were trying to give a taste of just how powerful and dangerous the Praetorians were.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
However, I do want to point out that there's another possible explanation for the Praetoreans being so comparatively brutal at such early levels. That theory would be that the people who designed them either had never designed anything but upper-level critters, or had not done so in a long, long time.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As regards Praetoria: man, I sure do love Praetoria.
One thing that I've noticed as a less-mentioned side effect of GR: tip mission rewards.
On the one hand, pretty much every build I put together now includes the Numina and Miracle uniques and as many LotGs as I can fit in. Where before these would be pretty much unattainable with my preferred playstyle (ignore market, punch faces), the HVAM stores have placed these well within the realm of obtainability - and by extension, anything else that can be bought when you're earning 150 million or more inf from a week of solo play outside of AE.
On the other hand, I basically have stopped running newspapers and almost stopped running any standard content arcs. If I have time for only a few missions in a day, tip missions offer absurdly better rewards/time than any other solo option. Which is fine, except I've seen all the tip missions now and would kind of like to do something else. Ideally, rewards shouldn't shape decisions - but practically, rewards shape decisions, and I'm not sure if the devs fully thought through this particular distribution of rewards in shaping decision making. They do have a history of making that particular oversight.
@SPTrashcan
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I think it says at least a little about the balance mindset that when someone brought up the tendency of Praetorian enemies to scatter to the four corners of the map at times, Castle went off on a tirade about soft-capped Blasters chaining their nukes.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you take someone who has spent the last several years in CoH designing such critters (or who has never done anything else in CoH) and ask them to create a critter appropriate to a level 10 character, you're likely to get something with (possibly significantly) inflated threat levels compared to older critter designs. It's not the guaranteed outcome, but lacking certain controls, I would find it an unsurprising outcome.
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Overall, I liked it. Too hard at first -- interestingly, while some of my vet friends thought it was fine, others said it was too hard. Too many chained ambushes, especially brutal on a stalker.
I liked the deeper quest chains, and the morality choices, and I liked a lot of the world building. It was a pretty good bit of MMO writing, compared to a lot of stuff I've played. I don't blame them for using it as the starting area, because it was a much better starting area than the existing ones, which were... Not nearly as good, anyway.
I do not see anything to suggest that Praetoria was ever intended to be more than 1-20 levels. They'd been saying that all along, so far as I can tell.
I love the morality/alignment system, I think they did a great job with tips and the related stuff. Much fun, I enjoy it. Liked the new sets.
So overall, I thought GR was a great deal. It had flaws, but they did a good job of fixing them, and the basic ideas were sound and pretty well done.