Going Rogue - a year later


Agent White

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Or as they work on several Issues at once, Going Rogue/I18 was being designed at the same time as I19 and I20, and they were trying to give a taste of just how powerful and dangerous the Praetorians were.
I don't want this to be the explanation, because that would be spectacularly stupid. That's not the way you introduce new players who just bought your nice new boxed set to the game.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Alignment changes and the Alpha slot + Tin Mage/Apex were all-around terrific ideas, but Praetoria has always been lame and the trial-centric incarnate grind has sent me on a four-month hiatus that won't be ending anytime soon.


PenanceжTriage

 

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
As regards Praetoria: man, I sure do love Praetoria.
Me too, actually. I love Praetoria, I like it a lot better than low-level redside and taking 4 days to swap alignment, so I've used it to start at least 5 characters of "villain" ATs, to play Blueside.

I like the difficulty of Praetoria. 2 characters I solo'd through, doing all the arcs (one Loyalist, one Resistance.) The other three I teamed through. I love getting in an 8 man team and blasting through all the horrible overpowered mobs in Praetoria. I generally do not PuG and I don't like big teams, but for some reason in Praetoria it's awesome.

My problem with it is that it's so inconvenient. I want to get my characters into my SGs right away. I want to have access to my bases with their crafting and their storage. Waiting until 20 is such a pain in the butt, I will probably not create any more Praets once i21 and the new tutorial go live, simply because of this. I'll be able to create Blueside Corruptors and put them right into SGs, have vaults and CHs available easily, and the BAM! factor of Praetoria doesn't outweigh those basic conveniences.

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
One thing that I've noticed as a less-mentioned side effect of GR: tip mission rewards.

On the one hand, pretty much every build I put together now includes the Numina and Miracle uniques and as many LotGs as I can fit in. Where before these would be pretty much unattainable with my preferred playstyle (ignore market, punch faces), the HVAM stores have placed these well within the realm of obtainability - and by extension, anything else that can be bought when you're earning 150 million or more inf from a week of solo play outside of AE.

On the other hand, I basically have stopped running newspapers and almost stopped running any standard content arcs. If I have time for only a few missions in a day, tip missions offer absurdly better rewards/time than any other solo option. Which is fine, except I've seen all the tip missions now and would kind of like to do something else. Ideally, rewards shouldn't shape decisions - but practically, rewards shape decisions, and I'm not sure if the devs fully thought through this particular distribution of rewards in shaping decision making. They do have a history of making that particular oversight.
I agree. My daily play usually consists of picking our duo (or two) for the day and running a set of tips on them. AMs are too good a reward not to use.


 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I don't want this to be the explanation, because that would be spectacularly stupid. That's not the way you introduce new players who just bought your nice new boxed set to the game.
That's where the "square peg in a round hole" feel of Praetoria comes from - I don't think it was ever intended to be a new player experience, and was only retrofitted into one after the fact. And it's NOT a good new player experience, because it's so difficult you pretty much have to have played the game already to not die horribly.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Can you see the problem with the system in your own words, though? Getting your character kitted out was a PITA when I'm sure it was intended to be fun... And it ain't. That's my biggest beef with the Incarnate system - it's not fun. It's work. It's a crapton of work. It's even worse if, like me, you can justify pretty much all of your level 50 characters having that kind of power. Someone (I think it's the TechBot) had someone else's quote in his sig, to the effect of "Incarnates are farming for threads" or something to that effect, and it's true, more or less. When you design a system specifically intended to be a grind, people WILL burn out, simple as that.

I said it a long time ago that "end game" can never be good, because it has to be either very slow, very difficult or very boring. Ours ended up being all three.
I'm not sure this is fair to discuss in the GR thread (after all, the Incarnate system was "supposed" to ship with GR, but didn't) but I couldn't agree more with everything you're saying here, Samuel.

I can justify all my characters having those powers, but getting them... ugh. And I've been part of/run raiding guilds in three other MMOs. Our system is just awful.


 

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Originally Posted by Patient_V View Post
Alignment changes and the Alpha slot + Tin Mage/Apex were all-around terrific ideas, but Praetoria has always been lame and the trial-centric incarnate grind has sent me on a four-month hiatus that won't be ending anytime soon.
Yeah the non-stop Praetorian themed content is just too much. I have also kinda gone MIA in game because I am sick of seeing the same enemy groups in all of the new content. It has been a steady parade of this crap for over a year now.

However, I do like the idea of the trials but there aren't enough of them yet. I only pray they stop involving Praetoria and put in something completely new and different. The trials are more fun than most TFs and SFs to be honest. I just wish the +50 TFs (Tin, Apex and maybe future TFs) would also reward iXP; maybe at a reduced rate so trials would still be the #1 method to get iXP.

The trials also expose the other issue with this game: huge time periods between significant updates. That is a huge reason why many of my friends eventually leave. The repetitive grind of CoX caused them to take breaks and they eventually lost interest. Going Rogue got some attention but I still feel it was a failure.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't think it was ever intended to be a new player experience, and was only retrofitted into one after the fact.
As far back as October 2009? It was only announced in May 2009


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
However, I do like the idea of the trials but there aren't enough of them yet. I only pray they stop involving Praetoria and put in something completely new and different.
Once the Praetorian storyline is completed, the Trials will shift their focus to the Battalion and the Coming Storm.

The way the devs now work, theyr'e able to plan out things a lot further in advance, which is why they've been able to give us this multi-Issue Paretorian arc -and Second Measure recently mentioned that they even have some planning done for Issue 29 - so that's looking 8 issues/2 years ahead, even before COH:Freedom has gone live.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Once the Praetorian storyline is completed, the Trials will shift their focus to the Battalion and the Coming Storm.

The way the devs now work, theyr'e able to plan out things a lot further in advance, which is why they've been able to give us this multi-Issue Paretorian arc -and Second Measure recently mentioned that they even have some planning done for Issue 29 - so that's looking 8 issues/2 years ahead, even before COH:Freedom has gone live.
Where did you hear trials were shifting to Coming Storm theme?

I hope the devs realize waiting years to conclude a major storyline is beyond lame, IMO.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I said it a long time ago that "end game" can never be good, because it has to be either very slow, very difficult or very boring. Ours ended up being all three.
Eh. This is opinion which will vary from person to person. I don't find it difficult or slow. I've "finished"* 10 characters now through the system, and I think the "hardest" part of it is getting people to listen and cooperate, not the content itself.

Boring I don't agree with personally, per se, but I wouldn't disagree with anyone that said the available trial content wasn't sufficiently varied. It has only two trials that people run consistently, and one that enough people dislike that it isn't run much at all. The design of the system inherently promotes running the available content many times. In order to obtain the components require to "finish" 10 characters I have run over 500 trials. Adding things that the iTrial merit currencies can buy other than just Incarnate progress only heightens the number people may be compelled to run. Given all that, providing significantly more than two (popular) trails to run should be a high priority, IMO. We need both quantity and quality here, because given the critical mass of "average" players needed for successful trials, players will aggregate into the trials that are easiest to form and complete, and harder and/or less enjoyed trials will be less traveled.

* By "finished" I mean I have Very Rare powers in Alpha, Judgement, Interface and Destiny, and at least a Rare ability in Lore. Some of my characters have Very Rare Lore and/or additional Rare powers , usually in Destiny.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
I hope the devs realize waiting years to conclude a major storyline is beyond lame, IMO.
It is?

Edit: Well, you did say "IMO". But other than via this post, how would the devs know your opinion on this?


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
Where did you hear trials were shifting to Coming Storm theme?
Our guide to all things Incarnate, Prometheus, has started to talk about the Battalion and the Coming Storm as the next cosmic threat we're going to face after Tyrant and the loyalists have been finished with.
Each time we get a new Trial, he always give us a bit more info about the current situation with the Well, as well as hints about the future, and more info on the Well in general - and now that we've got to the Underground Trial, he's said for the first time that the Coming Storm is the Battalion.
Plus, we're also running our of loyalists to fight - we've defeated over half the Praetorian Guard now, of the major loyalist archvillains, there's only really Tyrant, Dominatrix and Mother Mayhem left, and I'd expect Dominatrix to be part of any Trial involving Tyrant.
Second Measure has said that they're working on the next 2 Incarnate Trials now, so that could mean ones again Mother Mayhem and Tyrant - although the Underground Trial and the general direction of the Praetorian war storyline does kinda suggest we might have to confront the Praetorian Hamidon at some point as well, to prove our superiority over Tyrant and to keep Praetoria safe.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
It is?

Edit: Well, you did say "IMO". But other than via this post, how would the devs know your opinion on this?
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup. Like I said: IMO. I really think most story lines should conclude much quicker than this Coming Storm stuff. Do you really enjoy the years it has taken to get this Coming Storm dealt with?

It would be great to wrap it up and add a more superhero theme to the trials. Bring on Galactus type stuff where the planet is in immediate danger! Where are my Sinister Six?! It has been long said the nemesis often makes the super in comics; they enhance the story and the cool factor when done right. We don't have enough of that in this game, IMO

I also see people hating the trials. Honestly, I would run any of them 10 times over before I would run a Synapse TF or Citadel TF....even Manticore and Psyche are a bit rough. So, yeah, I think trials will be one facet of the end game. Hopefully we get something else that rewards iXP. High end TFs/SFs would be nice or some other new stuff we haven't dealt with.

GR had some neat stuff to it but...yeah...the level 1-20 is just weak. I can't see myself ever creating a new Praetorian and playing through there It is the suck.


 

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Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup. Like I said: IMO. I really think most story lines should conclude much quicker than this Coming Storm stuff. Do you really enjoy the years it has taken to get this Coming Storm dealt with?
Is that a serious question? If it is, the answer is "yes". If I hadn't, why would I be playing the game? If they never resolve it, it's not going to bother me. I mean, sure, I'm curious where they are going with it, but why would them not wrapping it up make me not enjoy what else they have done meanwhile? (Not that I've enjoyed everything, but I've enjoyed it or not on its own merits, not based on whether or not it clearly furthered the "coming storm." Or really, whether or not it wrapped up any existing story line.)


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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I think my biggest beef with GR is the lack of Day Job locations that could have been there, like the one for the tailor and other non faction locked ones. It wasn't too annoying but it was a constant irritant whenever I was getting ready to log out.


 

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Praetoria seems to me now like it was intended as a method for higher level primal characters to switch sides. Then they decided that it was going to be low-level content, and side-switching got another system.

The tutorial in Praetoria makes me feel like I've completely lost all my memories of living in Praetoria all my life and becoming a member of Powers Division, or like I've just arrived from another world and don't know anything about what is going on.

Recently (?) we learned that the whole Loyalist faction was a late addition to the GR experience. Apparently we were supposed to all be Resistance and the morality choices would only reflect Warden or Crusader mentalities.

If they had introduced Praetoria as level 30+ content where Primal Earth characters are sent there to undermine Tyrant's rule, not letting us play Loyalists would have made perfect sense. Now we are instead stuck with a problem in the opposite end of the GR path, where Loyalists are suddenly forced to abandon or even oppose their home world.

I think the whole idea of being forced to leave Praetoria could have been made much more palatable if we learned in the final story arc that Tyrant was about to give up on his Powers Division project, since it seemed to cause more problems than it solved, and was planning to kill off every super-powered being in Praetoria (possibly through his connection to the Well).

If that had happened it would have tied into previous high-level canon content where we had learned that Tyrant and his lieutenants had killed every other super in their world and now ruled unopposed. It would have given our characters, loyalists and resistance alike, a perfectly good reason to want to escape that world.

As it is now, when I play a Praetorian I usually get to level 20, enter Primal Earth, and then I abandon the character. Until recently they were abandoned indefinitely and usually deleted after a couple of weeks. Now at least some of them will be going back to First Ward to check that out. I'm thinking that not many of my Primal Earth characters will have a good reason to visit First Ward so now there's the same problem but in reverse.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

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For me the most jarring issue comes to light after you leave.

1-20 I was having a blast! Going solo on my eng/eng blaster was a breeze. (I'm guessing the mobs get harder in groups) and I was really getting into my character. lite rping him as secretly working for Tyrant, then learning Tyrant planned on destroying everything in the universe and deciding to explore the Isles for enough power to take him out.

The problem?

Once I left and zoned into Redside, I was treated like I'd been there the whole time. No mention is ever made of me being Praetorian. No further story arcs to tie it together (discounting the lame raids) This worked out for my villain, as he would be 'undercover' regardless. For my 1st heroic MM however, coming to Paragon to warn everyone, I just felt abandoned by the story. Going straight into getting the Keith Nance arc popup and running his arc doesn't help. I've been in this world for all of an hour and he's already heard of me and apparently I have a double...

I really do like the atmosphere and story of GR. At the same time though it feels very linear. Almost like you are on railroad tracks. Rolling blue or red I have numerous options open to me, I can go anywhere and do stuff for so many varied contacts that even when I repeat them on new alts it still feels like I have a choice. GR eliminates that choice and shoehorns you into 1 of 4 with little leeway. That isn't because it's new and the other sides have had years of content added. It's by design. Blue and Red had a more 'open world' feel to them right from the start, as oppossed to the you must do this feel of GR.
This is why I haven't been back to Goldside in 6 months. I did all 4 arcs, played around with the undercover bits and then realized I'd be reading the same things on every new toon. Where as if I roll blue or red I have much more leeway.


Also, I'm pretty sure Fredrik is right about the original vision for GR. Intended to be a 40+ jumping off spot for Primals to get into the story and switch sides in the process. Any number of reasons they could have then decided to make it 1-20 instead. Possibly with the idea that GR would be a new box on the shelf and they wanted new blood to be able to see their best work 1st, without having to play 40 levels to get to it. This ended up leaving it feeling half finished, with the final arc that sends you on your way to Primal coming almost out of the blue.


Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

 

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The only, but huge {huuuge!} thing that's been keeping me out of Praetoria are the mobs.

Unmezzable, unstoppable, rock-flinging Big Dogs?
Burnpatch spamming blast masters?
Instadeath-from-range sword masters?
loldefense clockwork?

They don't belong in a starting area. I consider them Lv30 mobs on a vacation, certainly not something to be fought when your options are "punch" and "punch a little harder".

Balance, please.


 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Eh. This is opinion which will vary from person to person. I don't find it difficult or slow. I've "finished"* 10 characters now through the system, and I think the "hardest" part of it is getting people to listen and cooperate, not the content itself. Boring I don't agree with personally, per se, but I wouldn't disagree with anyone that said the available trial content wasn't sufficiently varied.
Allow me to elaborate. Years ago, I postulated that there were three ways to stretch out finite content into infinite end game:

1. Make the content take VERY long to accomplish so you just spend a very long time making progress.

2. Make the content incredibly difficult to beat, so that you spend a lot of time trying and failing.

3. Make the player have to repeat the content many, many times over, spending a lot of time doing the same thing.

"End game" is a doomed prospect from the word go. It assumes infinite progress in theory, out of a system that is finite, and indeed very limited, just by definition. We can only play what the development team can make, and there's no way for them to make more than they can make, oxymorons notwithstanding. So the only way to stretch out what they can make is to make it slow us down, make it kill us, or make us have to repeat it.

Back when we were still talking about a level cap raise, I postulated those three options, but with the implication that end game would have to only make use of one option. It would either be very slow OR very difficult OR very repetitive. Ours... Managed to be all three, at least for one such as myself. The raid system itself is incredibly repetitive, the bosses in it are designed to be incredibly tough and the actual Incarnate progress system is incredibly slow. To my eyes, that's the WORST of all possible options, but it is, at least, theoretically infinite, simply because it takes phenomenal levels of stubborn perseverance to reach the finish line before they add in four more powers on the cheap.

Just for the sake of perspective, I'm the sort of person who actually needs closure and appreciates finality. All good things must come to an end, because it is this end that makes it feel like they ever amounted to something. I beat the game, I reached the end, my character is complete, and I am now free to pursue another character, instead. I can still play this one to marvel in his full power, but I have achieved all there is to achieve, and I am happy that I have. This is the sort of satisfaction and closure that level 50 used to represent to me, and in a way, still does. As I don't care even the tiniest bit about the whole iCrap, I still consider 50 to be the end.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Recently (?) we learned that the whole Loyalist faction was a late addition to the GR experience. Apparently we were supposed to all be Resistance and the morality choices would only reflect Warden or Crusader mentalities.
Now that would explain a lot. Doing this kind of storyline archaeology always uncovers very real reasons for seemingly random, unreasonable problems. And somehow, it always seems to come down to business messing with storytelling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius View Post
The problem?

Once I left and zoned into Redside, I was treated like I'd been there the whole time. No mention is ever made of me being Praetorian.
I totally agree. My current main is a Praetorian, and there is no acknowledgment of this in any Redside or Blueside material. It's actually sort of funny, right after arriving from Praetoria my toon goes to Kalinda for a cape mission, and Kalinda tells me about how Arachnos broke me out of jail. Praetoria was/is supposed to be such a big thing for CoX, but no real attempt has been made to retrofit pre-Praetoria content to acknowledge it.

Also, Raids Suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


VIRTUE: Ms Pris - 50 scrapper, Brai Master - 50 tank, Candi Pain - 50 scrapper
VICTORY: Little Bertha - 50 blaster

 

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Originally Posted by SnakeRogers View Post
I totally agree. My current main is a Praetorian, and there is no acknowledgment of this in any Redside or Blueside material. It's actually sort of funny, right after arriving from Praetoria my toon goes to Kalinda for a cape mission, and Kalinda tells me about how Arachnos broke me out of jail. Praetoria was/is supposed to be such a big thing for CoX, but no real attempt has been made to retrofit pre-Praetoria content to acknowledge it.
Or if you go back to Praetoria, nobody remembers you anymore.

Apparently they fixed those Enriche-water pipes quicker than I thought.


 

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Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
It has been long said the nemesis often makes the super in comics; they enhance the story and the cool factor when done right. We don't have enough of that in this game, IMO
I thought that the general opinion was that we have quite a lot of Nemesis in the game?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Recently (?) we learned that the whole Loyalist faction was a late addition to the GR experience. Apparently we were supposed to all be Resistance and the morality choices would only reflect Warden or Crusader mentalities.
That's not quite correct - the loyalist option was known about as far back at October 2009, and GR itself was only announced in May 2009 - the original idea seems to have been to have it very obvious that loyalsist = Villain, and Resistance = Hero, going by this post by Positron from October 2009:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=196732

Some of that original idea also showed up during the beta, when all loyalist missions had the Villain mission completion music, and all Resistance missions had the Hero completion music, and Resistance players could choose Hero titles, and loyalist could choose Villain titles.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Just for the sake of perspective, I'm the sort of person who actually needs closure and appreciates finality. All good things must come to an end, because it is this end that makes it feel like they ever amounted to something. I beat the game, I reached the end, my character is complete, and I am now free to pursue another character, instead. I can still play this one to marvel in his full power, but I have achieved all there is to achieve, and I am happy that I have. This is the sort of satisfaction and closure that level 50 used to represent to me, and in a way, still does. As I don't care even the tiniest bit about the whole iCrap, I still consider 50 to be the end.
Don't take this wrong, but given the above, it seems to me that you really may not have a very useful perspective, then, to judge whether CoH's end game ended up hard, slow or boring. The reason is because you would dislike any possible thing it could have been if indeed it was an endgame.

Unlike you, I do not seek or even want closure for my characters. In the old days, I used to avoid hitting level 50, because I did see it as "the end", and I did not want my characters to be done. I don't get to 50 with something I don't love playing. If I love playing something, I don't want to stop playing it just because I reach some milestone with it, but with no goals to pursue, I flounder. I9's Invention system let me breathe new life into my high level characters, giving me long-term progress goals for them that literally added years to my playtime with them. Incarnate progress, while my ways to achieve it are depressingly more narrow at this time, provides more new goals in that same vein.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA