Going Rogue - a year later


Agent White

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
And what parts do you think were rushed?
The fact that we only got 20 levels and then a lame plot device to send us to old content?

Only a few new power sets.

No Praetorian TFs. No ability to make Praetorian SGs. The fact that just about every mission with an ambush in Praetoria becomes a death march where a small team or solo-ers have absolutely no chance to survive. Every villain group being horribly overpowered as compared to low level Praetorians.

Plenty of little things like that all over Gold-side.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast View Post
I like pretty much everything about GR
So do I - it's an awesome expansion of the game world, and it delivered a huge amount of new lore - it was the launch pad for first part of the Incarnate storyline, which has let the devs tell a more in depth invasion story than the 2nd Rikti invasion.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
The fact that we only got 20 levels and then a lame plot device to send us to old content?
The content was planned to only be 1-20 right from the start


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
The fact that we only got 20 levels and then a lame plot device to send us to old content?

Only a few new power sets.

No Praetorian TFs. No ability to make Praetorian SGs.
The first two can't have been rushed as they were part of the original design we were told about for Going Rogue. We were told about those first two things almost a year before GR launched.

As for the TF's and SG's, I "think" they were never planned for Praetoria as it didn't fit the design concept they had. That's guesswork on my part, but it's based off of conversations I had with different members of the Dev team when GR was introduced to us at HeroCon, on the forums after that, during Beta, and even after launch.


If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

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Posted

I love GR from head to toe
Only a few little cosmetic things dissapointed me:
Destroyers, hate those costumes. Compared to the other GR enemies they are a running joke.
Costumes for some NPCs and contacts. I think there should be more variety and better taste to design them.
Also, would had love new looks for Dominatrix, Diabolique, Anti-Matter, Chimera, and better looks for Bobcat or Black Swan.
The other upgraded Praetorians look awesome (Mother Mayhem, Nightstar, Neuron...)


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
Booster packs were ok and looked more like cash grabs due to lack of wow factor and lack of quality (martial arts pack, anyone?)
Firstly, any pack that you feel is a "cash grab" is a pack that you should not buy. No one is making you buy ANY OF THEM. I didn't feel the Party and Wedding packs had enough items I liked to be worth the cost - until they put them on sale for half off. Then I bought them.

Second, you specifically mention the Martial Arts pack which I thought was outstanding. I bought that one INSTANTLY. There was no lack of wow factor or quality there. It may not have been to YOUR liking, but that's fine.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The content was planned to only be 1-20 right from the start
I can't help you if you honestly believe that.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Justice View Post
The first two can't have been rushed as they were part of the original design we were told about for Going Rogue. We were told about those first two things almost a year before GR launched.
I can see that being in place so they can tell us about it before hand, but I can't believe they sat down and decided to design 20 levels of new starting game, which is hardly aching for content that ends with you just returning to old content.

My 2 influence (infamy or information) says that one of two things happened: 1. Praetoria was designed to be end game level 35-50+ content but was changed due to Marketing wanting a new start point or 2. Praetoria was originally designed to be just like the Isles with content from 1-40 at launch but the story arc writers and zone designers needed for this were taken from them early on and put into the development teams for Incarnate Trials or what we're seeing in Freedom. So they cut their losses and go with level 1-20 only with the lame "Choose your side" ending. We'll slowly see them getting up to level 50 Goldside, but the new zones will act more like co-op villain/hero zones than anything like the First Ward already does.


Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

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Posted

I hardly ever use Praetoria anymore as it blocks me from getting two Mayhem missions.

Nice shiny content though.


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Posted

Quote:
The content was planned to only be 1-20 right from the start
Not buying it. It's patently obvious that the mobs were designed for the endgame and then scaled down, poorly. Likewise, using the Praetorian setting as both a starting experience and endgame content is insanely dissonant, made worse by the decision to allow Primals to walk over whenever they like. One BAF league should be able to bulldoze Nova Praetoria off the map before Tyrant and his stooges could do anything about it, except you can't because, well, you can't. It's just not allowed. If the Praetorian zones were off-limits to Primals you could at least invoke the "level progression equals story progression" principle (itself becoming increasingly problematic; proof left as an exercise for the reader), claiming they represented a "Praetoria-that-was" that tourists can't get to now.

As for Praetoria per se I don't see how anyone could think it "awesome". Not only is it not particularly original but it invokes a trope that has become so cliche it can no longer be used seriously. It did nothing to "shave off the goatees"; if anything the Praetorian characters are now even more laughably evil then ever before. Despite what a few apologists tried to claim there is nothing "morally ambiguous" about it (and we don't hear that argument much any more, you may notice). It is positively rotten as a starting environment for reasons stated above repeatedly. Even as a long-time player who could effortless twink a starting character I would not even consider starting one in Praetoria; the last possible reason to do so (archetype selection) will be gone in a matter of days. The "multi-faction" storyline went nowhere with all branches inexplicable shoehorned into the same place and is now abandoned in the First Ward content. I suspect the devs have belatedly discovered there are reasons why "choose your own adventure" type stories are only seen in children's books.

There's a great conversation in the Babylon 5 episode "Hunter, Prey" between Franklin and Garibaldi about disappointment. They compare the expectations they had for the future to (paraphrased) "the Christmas present you bug your parents for all year, and when you finally get it it's just not a great as you thought it was, and you just shove it in the closet and never play with it again". That's the vibe I've been getting from the devs ever since GR. It's like they feel the "old world" content is such a hopeless morass of design mistakes, continuity errors, bad writing and worse cliches that even they don't want to deal with it any more, that Praetoria represented some kind of opportunity to "start over". I think they expected we'd all stampede over to Praetoria, demanding more and more of it, and can't understand why we didn't and why so many people are so tired of Praetoria being at the center of everything. They don't (or maybe can't) see that they're just making the same mistakes all over again, only with a shinier coat of ultra-mode paint.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
I can't help you if you honestly believe that.
So when do you think they made the change to reduce it to only 1-20?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJazMan View Post
I wonder if skinning an NPC takes much more effort than going with a pre-existing one. I am assuming you have knowledge on this? To me it seems it may take a bit more time but it would be time well worth it. I am all for unique encounters in game. There is enough material here that we need something different. Anyway, to each their own
well, haven't worked as a digital artist, never could draw, myself. but have followed enough developer blogs to know that art assets arent inconsequential and just from dave's posts and posi's comment that he wanted period attire for a mission with nemesis in the 50's but could not justify the resources to draw the conclusions that to get the budget to make more art resources, they have to show that it can be used in a certain amount of content, if not it makes more sense and is going to be more justified to the producers to put the resources elsewhere.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
So when do you think they made the change to reduce it to only 1-20?
Around the time, internally, that they decided to go F2P and began plotting out Freedom, knowing full well that it would require a redesign of Atlas and Mercy as well as other changes that took devs away from Praetoria zone/story arc making?


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Posted

There is also the fact that Praetoria is a horrible place for new players just starting in the City of Universe to start in. There are so many references to Primal versions of characters that they would never really get it on the same level as someone who has played blueside for even a few weeks.

I'm not saying veteran players are better than n00bies, but in this case, Praetoria is written as one big "What If?" Marvel-style so thoroughly that having prior knowledge of the characters involved is practically required.


Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
Around the time, internally, that they decided to go F2P and began plotting out Freedom, knowing full well that it would require a redesign of Atlas and Mercy as well as other changes that took devs away from Praetoria zone/story arc making?
They were planning that back in 2009?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
They were planning that back in 2009?
They did say that Freedom has been in the making for quite a long time, for years.


Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
well, haven't worked as a digital artist, never could draw, myself. but have followed enough developer blogs to know that art assets arent inconsequential and just from dave's posts and posi's comment that he wanted period attire for a mission with nemesis in the 50's but could not justify the resources to draw the conclusions that to get the budget to make more art resources, they have to show that it can be used in a certain amount of content, if not it makes more sense and is going to be more justified to the producers to put the resources elsewhere.
Who said anything about creating new/unique costumes/looks? You can make a ton of stuff with the material we have in game already. No need to make anything new.


 

Posted

Until villainside gets mayhems in oroboros, I am not making another vside praetorian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
I hardly ever use Praetoria anymore as it blocks me from getting two Mayhem missions.

Nice shiny content though.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
They did say that Freedom has been in the making for quite a long time, for years.
In that case, they would have been planning it before they even started planning GR


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
They did say that Freedom has been in the making for quite a long time, for years.
They started planning Freedom "for reals" about a year ago according to the PAX panel. They only had occasional talks and what-ifs about it before then.

Coincidentally, GR launched...with 1-20 content........about a year ago.


Hmm.....


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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Now it was pointed out to me by someone (I think Arcanaville) that my 'theory' as to why we're going the Freemium route now, which was that Going Rogue failed to pull in the numbers expected, was dismissed because the devs have been planning Freedom along with Going Rogue.

Fragmenting the player base for a THIRD time was a silly move and like others I honestly believe Praetoria was meant to be a 40-50 Expansion when originally designed. It fell short because it WAS unfinished, Going Rogue was meant to have the Incarnate system in place.

Judging by what appeared on Test during a muck up where Beta players could access the 'closed' Test server and see the Incarnate powers up to the ones we have now (Alpha, Lore, Judgement, Destiny, Interface) well before they were announced that they system itself was ready to go but a design choice at the last minute decided they wanted to be more like other MMOs and include endgame grinding of certain raids.

The Praetorian mobs are incredibly poorly tuned for low level, as mentioned, mobs with mez protection while Controllers and Dominators still only have access to single target holds and little else, huge AoE damage well before things like Super Reflexes gets its AoE defense. Psi users out the wazzoo well before sets with a weakness to Psi have the HP to soak a few attacks before slumping to the ground.

The mobs are blatently tuned for endgame and then scaled down, badly.

I will say that even the endgame content feels rushed, releasing with only 2 raids was a pretty poor idea since now everyone and their dog has mastered those two raids, why bother doing the more difficult Keyes and Underground when you can do a BAF and Lambda with ease. It's all very well going "Oooh these are HARD, yeah, for teh hardcore elites playas yeah!" but when you've got 2 other trials that have been out long enough for the general population to have all it needs to know burnt into its memory, its not going to matter how 'hardcore' you make the 2 new raids, most won't do them more than once accept for badges.

You know its telling, when asked about the fact we're not getting new Incarnate slots for what seems like quite a while now and the person who has tier 4 in every slot sees no reason to run the trials anymore, Zwill and Dark Watcher responded simply, "haven't you unlocked everything? Go unlock more stuff!"

Well I'm in that boat, I have ONE character I'm making an Incarnate, I don't WANT to unlock more stuff, I'm perfectly happy with the tier 4's she has. It was a big enough pain in the backside to get her to that stage, you can bugger off if you think I want to go through that 20 times to every single tier 4. I got what I wanted out of the costume rewards in the very first day they were released, I have no interest in grinding out content for the Ascension armour so that means I'm simply not playing the Incarnate content, adding new trials does absolutely nothing for me.

Issue 21 as a whole is a 'meh' for me, it's not got new Incarnate slots, it's got 20-30 content in it which I may run...twice...if I'm levelling up an alt since I know that they're using Praetorian mobs and thus they will be a PITA to fight due to overtuning. The sets I want either aren't ready yet (Titan Weapons) or are being held back from some odd reason despite being ready to go (Street Justice), which leaves Beam Rifle...which I was very 'meh' to and Time manipulation...which is a buff/debuff set when I rarely play ATs that use that.

Issue 21 brings me, personally, nothing.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
They started planning Freedom "for reals" about a year ago according to the PAX panel. They only had occasional talks and what-ifs about it before then.

Coincidentally, GR launched...with 1-20 content........about a year ago.


Hmm.....
And the 1-20 content was first announced about 2 years ago


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
Judging by what appeared on Test during a muck up where Beta players could access the 'closed' Test server and see the Incarnate powers up to the ones we have now (Alpha, Lore, Judgement, Destiny, Interface) well before they were announced that they system itself was ready to go but a design choice at the last minute decided they wanted to be more like other MMOs and include endgame grinding of certain raids.
Then it was lucky for them that they'd already designed the Pretorian zones to include raid locations like the BAF, Lambda Sector and the Keyes' Island reactors, just in case they decided to add raids at the last minute.
And if we didn't already know it was a last minute decsion, it might almost look like they'd been planning the raid locations from when they first started designing the Praetorian zones.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Erm...you do realise there was a good...what was it...six months after the release of the Alpha slot before we actually saw anything that used those locations right?

That's six months of planning to make the two new trials. So yes, it was a design descision to pull the Incarnate content they had planned in order to delay to add raids and then look at what they could use to make raids from, so they pick the BAF, which actually does look like a raid zone (big, sealed off from eveywhere else etc.) and then Lambda which was just background scenery for the most part until it was given a fully fleshed out story by the raid.

Infact I wouldn't be surprised if originally it was all based around normal team sized content and not huge multi-team raids.


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Posted

GR, I still think it was a real dumb idea to make an expansion low levels.. huh? the part of the game people get threw in a weekend and I'm being generous. I probably would have loved it if it was 40-50 content.

As it stands the only reason I bought GR was cause it was the only way I could access incarnate stuff. Side switching is nice too.