What would you do to make Keyes fun?
It's a case of going into it with a BAF mindset. Keyes runs require teamwork and an active audience. Unlike BAF if you want to be successful you can't just shut off your brain and coast.
It's fine the way it is. It's the people that join in expecting they can AFK that need to be tweaked. |
the fact that LAM is ALSO run (which most certainly is not "shut off your brain and coast") MORE than Keyes tells me you are absolutely INCORRECT.
Difficulty is not the key issue here. Nor is it lazy players. If folks aren't active on LAM they aren't going to succeed.
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[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
I've had the same problem with LAM runs. People love going AFK during the grenade/acid part. Maybe I just need to be more selective on who I invite.
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What she said.
That really sums up exactly what I thought when I ran the trial the first time. But I could not have articulated it. All I knew was that I was immediately "irk'd" when everyone scattered to gather objectives around the first reactor.
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I've had the same problem with LAM runs.
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For the BAF and LAM, wanting to get your unlocks and slot something in them was a viable push to get people to want to learn the mechanics of them. There is NO SUCH thing for Keyes. By the time Keyes finally arrived most folks had gotten what they needed. Same thing by the time the U trial arrives. The only two things that will push folks to want to learn the U or Keyes are:
1. Is it fun.
2. Is there no other way to get my alts slotted up?
The answer to 2 is easy. So it falls on 1. to get more folks to run Keyes.
And yes getting more folks to run Keyes is important. You need participants in the Incarnate System for it to actually function as a viable system. Having a third trial that folks can form for reduces potential burnout and keeps participants in the system. Hence the creation of this thread.
Saying "folks suck" is all good and well, but it's not good when you are up at 11pm and want a 3rd EMP and the only 15 other folks refuse to run Keyes.
Just saying.
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it is fun, what would get it run more is for baf to be les zerg-able, until people cant get the rewards by doing the path of least resistance, a vocal portion wont do it because they want the easiest way.
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it is fun, what would get it run more is for baf to be les zerg-able, until people cant get the rewards by doing the path of least resistance, a vocal portion wont do it because they want the easiest way.
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2 EMPS isn't going to do it when the U trial, which is simply more fun will also have 2 EMPS.
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And I'll bet you'll see MORE folks running the U trial (which IS LONGER than any of the other three by a large factor) than Keyes come issue 21.
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I'm one of those people who would much rather run a Cuda over a Kahn, even before they had their merits flipped back. I enjoy Keyes, it's just not a 5 times a day trial.
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[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
I found the Underground trial to be a bit boring (dungeon crawl), but I haven't tried it since i19's beta. I'm sure it'll be run a lot when it's the new shiny, which I'll admit Keyes wasn't when it first came out, but I don't think it'll be run *that* much more.
I'm one of those people who would much rather run a Cuda over a Kahn, even before they had their merits flipped back. I enjoy Keyes, it's just not a 5 times a day trial. |
something like that really shouldn't be as it's a dungeon crawl as you say, however time has shown folks prefer killing mass quantities of mobs (mothership raid, ITF) than they do the mechanics of something like Keyes.
But I could be wrong. Time will tell.
I'm sure there are folks who prefer Keyes, the issue is finding 15 others consistently when you want to do it. Hence the point of this thread.
They can either:
1. Change some of the mechanics. Arcanaville pointed out the most reasonable changes without turning it into an easy mode keyboard faceroll fest
2. Significantly up the rewards. 2 EMPs won't do it since there will already be an altrernative to get 2EMPS (and at the same time get more astrals--nearly 6-7 in one run through of the UTrial).
But if folks are fine with barely ever getting to actually run Keyes and continuting to see nothing but "BAF forming" "LAM forming" and soon "U trial forming" for a majority of the time, that's fine too.
/shrug.
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Good points. Hopefully the additional EMP merit will be enough to tempt some folks to give it a shot again.
What gets me though is when there is teamwork, it is amazingly fun. Last night I had the best Keyes run in my experience. It always comes down to the final fight with AM and whether people are buying green insps or if they are waiting for someone to heal them.
My last failed run was the most frustrating thing I've done in game. I'm almost certain at least 20% of people don't run with league chat on.
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Good points. Hopefully the additional EMP merit will be enough to tempt some folks to give it a shot again.
What gets me though is when there is teamwork, it is amazingly fun. Last night I had the best Keyes run in my experience. It always comes down to the final fight with AM and whether people are buying green insps or if they are waiting for someone to heal them. My last failed run was the most frustrating thing I've done in game. I'm almost certain at least 20% of people don't run with league chat on. ![]() |
2EMPs would have been fine on it's own . . . if there wasn't another more fun trial that also gives 2EMPs and potentially more astrals coming live at the same time.
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First, I absolutely love the final Keyes fight. I've said it several times, and I'll say it again-- I think it's the best AV fight in the game, and it makes me feel like I'm actually facing an evil mastermind (the character type not the AT). I do not want them to reduce the number of abilities that he has in that final fight. It's what makes the fight so awesome.
These are the things I don't like about the Keyes Trial as a whole:
1) The 50% HP unresistable, undefensible damage aspect of the pulse: The concept of the pulse is great. The "bring healers" aspect of it is not. As was suggested many times in beta, a random interesting debuff of some kind (and by random I mean everyone gets hit with the same one, but a different one per pulse) that needs to be overcome in a different way for each type would be more interesting and fun. That second or two of "which one were we hit with, and how do we deal with it?" instead of just staying in a healing bubble would greatly increase the dynamic feel of the Trial. The damage that's added due to Anti-Matter's health status is fine as it is (and could be increased, if necessary, if the base pulse damage was removed).
2) The repetition/length in the three Reactor phases: Having to stabilize the three reactors in basically the same way 3 times is really dull. Having 3 different ways to get the cells is good, but the powering-up of the terminals is so similar it feels like doing the same thing for 40 minutes (or however long you take). If they can't change up the actual method of stabilizing each reactor, I'd cut the number of terminals per reactor in half instead of doubling the end reward.
3) Excessive reliance on healing: Too many of the gimmicks are undefensible and unresistable damage. It devalues other methods of support, especially in the final fight. Disintegration should have more of its damage be affected by resistance and defense, so that non-healing type buffers can help against it as well.
4) Excessive anti-melee measures: While I love this trial's final fight, if I'm playing Melee I feel like I'm not contributing very much, as I can probably only spend 1/2 of my time attacking Anti-Matter due to the various position-based attacks/effects, while ranged characters can just move a little and keep on firing. I don't really know what to do to fix this one aside from adding more objectives to fight during the phase that aren't right next to Anti-Matter, which I'm sure a lot of people would be against.
I also agree with Arcanaville that Time Stop should stop time, and not allow timers to continue to count down and the Obliteration Beam to hit us while frozen.
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Coming in late to this but I just wanted to post my opinion.
Keyes to me is just plain boring. It's not difficult to do on a basic non-badge run, just far too lengthy and like I said, boring.
Granted, I've only ran it twice, but when I ran it the first time, there was virtually no instruction given. I just did what everyone else did and followed what instructions were given. Successful runs both times I've done it, but just not interesting enough to keep doing compared to the time it takes.
For me, it's not only a matter of fun, but one of time as well. I prefer the shorter trials since I can get one done in 15-20 minutes. Both of the Keyes runs took close to 45 minutes. I'm sure folks have gotten the time down considerably by now, but even if they have, it's still a bore-fest.
Now, I haven't had a chance to run the new underground trial, but by the sounds of it, it's FUN. It may be lengthy, but if the fun factor is there, I will try and make time for it.
Will 2 Emp merits make me run Keyes again? Sure, if only to see if the time it takes to do it will offset the lack of fun I have with the trial. If I can get a Keyes done in say 20 minutes, then I might just start running it again from time to time.
Of course, that's if anyone else wants to run it. Just because I might, doesn't mean others will.
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OK I am just gonna come out and say it. This trial is only hard because 90% of the player base is to damn lazy to pay attention to the info bar and/or follow instructions. This trial is easy if you pay attention.
The stratgey we use is easy. Kill 30 and nominate three people to collect temps. While said three people are collecting the rest stay together to form a healing bubble and move terminal to terminal so they can be taken care of. Next reactor is just as easy. everyone targets through one person and kills the EBS. For every two done they pass temps to one person and those three collectors from last time are clearing terminals (with breaks back to the healing bubble as needed) and getting them activated. Once AM shows up same as other reactor, follow. clear and lead AM around while STAYING TOGETHER (A foreign concept I know). Third reactor is as easy as first. Each team clears the doors and mobs and lets the collectors collect. Start on clearing each level and having collectors get what is needed as you go. Rinse and repeat for when AM shows up. Final battle is so stupidly simple it is painful. PAY ATTENTION TO THE WINDOW!! How hard is that? Also if you are to damn stupid to not notice a HUGE GLOWING GREEN PATCH on the ground you deserve to be hit by it. As for the time stop he does that at around 80%, 50%, and 20% health. Watch his health bar and back away as needed. Why people have a hard time with this is beyond me. I just think most of the player-base wants to be on auto pilot for their rewards and do nothing that resembles a challenge. |
Puzzles are fine, and difficulty is fine, to a point. Bad luck you die is something that many people find frustrating if its done too overtly, and worse if its stretched out over a period of time**, and in my opinion its not necessary. And I say this as someone that frankly doesn't care if I die a hundred times in a trial. Its not like I can't wipe the debt out in ten seconds and at this stage of the game death just kind of tickles. As a player I can, and have no problem running Keyes. But if you ask me to comment on its design, as a designer I have issues with it.
But even that is not my biggest design issue with Keyes. The other two I mention above are more problematic to me.
** Psychologically speaking, as a game designer I would sooner say "bang you're dead" and kill the player than say "bang, you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it in five, four, three, two..." That's another feature of Obliteration that frankly I can't justify the design sensibility of.
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You mean spend all that development time on Trials designed to force players to only play the BAF?
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Make huge, intricate set-piece battles for major events. Things you can look at and say "oh yea, I did that." Then make basic, straightforward content for anything I'm expected to run 40 times per character. Anything that needs to be run repeatedly needs to be runnable while watching a movie, eating, and being half asleep. Anything else is like a drag racer with a baby-on-board sticker.
Get those two things confused, and you get exactly what you describe - lots of wasted dev time and the oncoming ineffective bribes to get people to run the other content.
it is fun, what would get it run more is for baf to be les zerg-able, until people cant get the rewards by doing the path of least resistance, a vocal portion wont do it because they want the easiest way.
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Having that AND slapping down a totally ham-fisted way of completing the trial before the boss fight of 'Oh, look at all the shinies we gave him!' just makes it one hundred percent NOT fun for me, and others it seems.
LRSF and STF are still challenging (please bear in mind, NOT everyone is a Tier 4'd IO'd out god, just because some people are) as they are, and require tactics and teamwork and not turning your brain off.
Keyes is just rear-end-al about it.
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Forcing people to run Keyes would probably have more of a backlash effect.
The risk/time/reward/fun number for Keyes is 3 EMP merits. At that number I can see dedicated speed teams running it. Even at 2 EMP its not quite worth it.
People will make their own choices based on how they value the rewards/challenges.
You do. I was speaking specifically to how many of these trials are run each day. None of them are hard once you get down to learning the mechanics. But you need a certain aspect of them being actually FUN to run for folks to want to learn those mechanics.
For the BAF and LAM, wanting to get your unlocks and slot something in them was a viable push to get people to want to learn the mechanics of them. There is NO SUCH thing for Keyes. By the time Keyes finally arrived most folks had gotten what they needed. Same thing by the time the U trial arrives. The only two things that will push folks to want to learn the U or Keyes are: 1. Is it fun. 2. Is there no other way to get my alts slotted up? The answer to 2 is easy. So it falls on 1. to get more folks to run Keyes. And yes getting more folks to run Keyes is important. You need participants in the Incarnate System for it to actually function as a viable system. Having a third trial that folks can form for reduces potential burnout and keeps participants in the system. Hence the creation of this thread. Saying "folks suck" is all good and well, but it's not good when you are up at 11pm and want a 3rd EMP and the only 15 other folks refuse to run Keyes. Just saying. ![]() |
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Actually, I think this would make Keyes *easier* but I don't think it would make it more fun. Removing some of the frustration wouldn't make the rest of it automatically more entertaining.
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I personally don't have a problem with Keyes, but I do see where the flaws are in terms of it having wider appeal. I think Keyes has three fundamental problematic issues that have nothing to do with dying, difficulty, or badges per se:
1. It encourages leagues to scatter. You're supposed to collect temps from all over the place and without someone literally assigning individual people to collect individual temps from individual spots which is unlikely, you'll just have a mass of players not sure if they should be going after the blinkies or doing something else. This has nothing to do with explaining the overall structure of the trial either: if you don't get that after one pass through, you're just an idiot. Have something shiny to play with. But that's strategy. The tactics aren't something that is coordinated with individual precision (at least not that I've ever seen) and that breeds confusion. Plus, scattering is counter-productive to most people's fun in the iTrials, because much of our collective incarnate strength comes from cross buffing and concentrated damage: it comes from acting in groups. Lambda encourages us to split up into two teams, then rejoin. If the individual teams scatter that's their problem. BAF encourages us to split up into a few teams, then rejoin. It doesn't encourage us to scatter: rather the opposite the towers and adds encourage us to stick together in one big mass or a pair of teams or a triplicate group, depending on the strategy. |
2. Its serialized.
Except for the early timer sections, the bulk of the terminal work for the last two reactors requires Antimatter to be present. That means however fast we collect temps and however many people have them, only one terminal at a time can be used. It takes a parallel task and forces it into a serialized structure. And this means it forces a lot of people to wait around for others to finish a task. And there's not much for them to do while they wait, once the terminals are cleared. Which they can be by one crazy blaster with a couple of lucks and poor impulse control (like me). It doesn't take an entire team to do that, but whole teams are waiting around to do something. This situation does not occur in either of the other two trials, nor in TM or Apex, nor in any of the task forces in the game as far as I know, to nearly the same degree, except in a few odd cases that *themselves* are seen as bad (of course I'm talking about Numina). |
3. Its meta-puzzle tricks are too gimmicky.
The autohitting turrets in BAF can be turned off. Sequestration can be managed. If you run out of grenades in Lambda you can actually earn more. If Maurader jumps out of Lambda someone on your league is an idiot. But while I believe most things are fair game if you present them correctly, even I have problems with a meta puzzle in which you can be killed by a power that you have to move away from, and the game occasionally prevents you from moving, and those two things can happen at the same time. While its *possible* to manage this in theory, I consider this particular combination to be asking too much. Its like the original Hamidon that was designed to have the players all attack from range and all simultaneously move to the same new firing spot at the same time when the mito bloom occurred, twice. Its worth noting the players actually *thought up* this solution to Hami, and mostly concluded we'd never be able to coordinate it well enough to ever be worth whatever reward Hamidon could possibly give. |
As I said, I'm fine with the overall trial (still need those badges though) and I'm fine with the overall difficulty. I'm even fine with dying. But if you ask me how I would make Keyes more fun, I don't think I would be focused on simply removing the parts some find annoying, but trying to replace the parts that directly impede fun with things more entertaining. If its entertaining, people will not be upset about dying. Dying is what I think people are upset about because they aren't getting enough entertainment for their deaths.
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To do that, I would try to find ways to reduce the amount of scatter the trial induces. Funny how the whole point of the hospital lock out is to prevent dead players from just diving back into the trial all by themselves when in Keyes specifically there is absolutely no advantage to that enforced grouping up at all.
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Give them some help: in this case, the Obliteration beam should generate a visible and audible warning in the screen of everyone targeted at least four seconds in advance that is *impossible* to miss.
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And Time Stop should stop time. Timers stop. Disintegration stops. Obliteration stops. Everything stops but Antimatter. If AVs have purple triangles to prevent players trivializing combat by perma-holding the AVs, the devs should consider the ramifications of giving Antimatter essentially an unresistable mez through which he can use powers that can kill us instantly.
As I said, I don't mind puzzles and I don't generally complain about the meta gaming requirements of making high end challenges. So if I think its a little wonky, the devs should assume most players think it sucks donkey balls. |
Triumph usually starts out with a few Lam's, then moves onto BAFs for the main part of the day, then finishes off with a Keyes.
My trial days usually end up being: Lam: 2 Baf: 4 Keyes: 1 |
However, I can say that since Issue 20.5 launched that I've run BAF 44 times, Lambda 32 times, and Keyes 26 times. And if it were not for me trying to get the badges, my Keyes trial runs could be counted on one hand. After I get the badges, wild horses wouldn't get me run this disaster of a trial again.
OK I am just gonna come out and say it. This trial is only hard because 90% of the player base is to damn lazy to pay attention to the info bar and/or follow instructions. This trial is easy if you pay attention.
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But as I said above, I don't *personally* find the trial hard in the sense of being difficult to complete.
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I diverge a little from SnowGlobe in thinking that adding fun is less about making it easier and more about making the design more engaging.
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But I do think that you're under-estimating the problem of timestop: the problem with timestop is not timestop itself: the problem with timestop is that it can freeze players while they are being disintegrated or targeted by obliteration. Even so, that won't fail a trial on its own so its not even a threat to the league completing the trial. What it is, is a design that crosses the line from a puzzle that can kill you, to a random event that can just kill you without any reasonable way of either reacting or proactively preventing it.
Puzzles are fine, and difficulty is fine, to a point. Bad luck you die is something that many people find frustrating if its done too overtly, and worse if its stretched out over a period of time**, and in my opinion its not necessary. And I say this as someone that frankly doesn't care if I die a hundred times in a trial. Its not like I can't wipe the debt out in ten seconds and at this stage of the game death just kind of tickles. As a player I can, and have no problem running Keyes. But if you ask me to comment on its design, as a designer I have issues with it. |
** Psychologically speaking, as a game designer I would sooner say "bang you're dead" and kill the player than say "bang, you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it in five, four, three, two..." That's another feature of Obliteration that frankly I can't justify the design sensibility of.
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I think the most telling thing about the trial is that it isn't being run as often as the others. That alone should scream to the developers that players are not finding it fun.
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Actually, I have a tiny fix for all the incarnate trials that would make them more fun: Remove the timer that only lets you exit the hospital for 10 seconds every 30 seconds.
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more accurately many folks CAN play if they take the time to LEARN it. However the encounter in question is so unfun they don't want to bother.
Especially since there are things that are MORE fun that they can do to get the same or better rewards. funny that. AKA Keyes is not hard if you take the time to learn it. But for a majority of the player base that dreck isn't worth learning. |
I could pull up a bunch of guides, study hard and learn Keyes from front to back. However I find it to be a waste of my hard-earned gaming-time to run this trial, since it is *NOT* enjoyable - and so it is not worth trying to memorize it. And LOL at someone else's idea that one can carry enough greens to negate the Death Pulses. Yeah, not hardly. I guess some people have Incarnate Inspiration trays that hold 50 Inspirations or more.
Meh.
I would hesitate myself to use that argument, particularly given that it was used initially against Lambda and BAF themselves, as well as other content (I9 Hamidon comes to mind). I think even if Keyes participation was ramping upwards over time, I would still have the same critique of its design I have now. Its worth noting, but I don't think its the most telling aspect of Keyes on its face.
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The Issue 9+ Hami raids are no where near the amount of times it was run before Issue 9. Before Issue 9, Hami Raids happened nightly. Even now, on Triumph, hami raids happen 1 or 2 times a month (if that). That also tells me that the "new" hami raid isn't as liked as it was before it was changed.
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...And LOL at someone else's idea that one can carry enough greens to negate the Death Pulses. Yeah, not hardly. I guess some people have Incarnate Inspiration trays that hold 50 Inspirations or more.
Meh. |
Well I know the 2 toons that I have done Keyes with (I've possibly done it on 3 toons but can't remember)...I have self-healing powers (main is Kinetics and the other one I do it with is a mind/emp controller so pbaoe heal there plus RA/rebirth destiny powers).
You know you can buy more (green) inspirations from the hospital NPC inside right?
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I'll say again that I'd put money on it that the Underground Trial will become the third most run trial behind BAF and LAM, with Keyes being a distant 4th come Issue 21.
The U trial is not easy, but it's actually you know . . . fun.
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