What would you do to make Keyes fun?
Keyes is unfortunately a bit of a lost cause to me. I won't say I'll never do it again, but it is definitely not something I want to get involved with again soon. Maybe if I was guaranteed at least a Rare drop. But that's only because the standard random roll for salvage bit makes me so irritated with the game that just writing about it makes me want to rage quit. I'll just say that running this thing 3 times and getting an Uncommon every time just reinforces my negative opinion of it and the incarnate system overall. It's not so much that the mission itself is horrible as that this style of mission is unsuitable (to me) to be mainline task. If it were just some sideshow like the Cathedral of Pain I wouldn't really care how it worked.
PS so that I'm not totally negative: the new low level sewer mini-raid is quite good and by far my favorite of the trials thus far.
Just a brief notion that came to mind: what if the Anti-Matter Pulse knocked off a percentage of your remaining health rather than a percentage of your total health? One of my pet peeves with this trial is suffering a near knockout from an enemy only to be finished off by the pulse before I can heal.
Here are some of the things I posted as soon a Keyes started:
- Make the disintegration FX _much_ bigger like a big sprite ring with a vertical spike to give people a chance to notice. Also its a signature power, it deserves to look impressive.
- Set up a "no other special abilities" flag or self-buff power that fires at the start of Disintegration and Obliteration beam that last for the duration of the power to prevent them overlapping with each other and with the time-freeze, when these overlap you get potentially unavoidable deaths which is not fun at all
- Put FX on the terminals, blue aura when uncharged, red when locked, have the blue stack x3 with uncharged so that one layer is removed per charge
- Make the Gamma pulse FX fade in and out a little slower, there have been time I've blinked and missed it not realising that my heath is now <50%
- Make Anti-Matters regeneration either pause a little before it starts or ramp up (then level off) to give people time to scramble over there
- I'd scrap the entanglement schtick, it penalises Melee too much (Oh just thought, alternate option: if there was something other than AM that the players could wail on that would help in the battle, like if the regen terminals could be pre-damaged a bit (before the timestops happened), that would give one of the entanglement halves something to do rather than just move away from their opposites)
I'm still hoping that, when the rewards are upped, I can find someone that wants to run it. I had one nibble here on the boards, but it evaporated.
I have yet to run *one* Keyes. Tons of BAFs and Lambdas, but not a single Keyes. No one is interested.
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I think the pulse damage needs to be cut by 50%. Sending players to the hospital in a steady stream isn't my idea of a good time. The Anti-Anti-Matter badge is just being sadistic.
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Disintegrations: The player being disintegrated should be clearly marked in the team/league windows so that people healing can have a chance at preventing the player from being defeated. |
EDIT: Forgot to say that in the main I find Keyes reasonably fun - it's a challenge that can be nigh on impossible with people running about like headless chickens but can be made a whole lot easier by players paying attention. At this level of game the trials shouldn't be easy run-with-my-eyes-closed-whilst-asleep affairs. The worst part of Keyes isn't any of the trials design - it's finding enough other players who do/will pay attention.
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I'm still hoping that, when the rewards are upped, I can find someone that wants to run it. I had one nibble here on the boards, but it evaporated.
I have yet to run *one* Keyes. Tons of BAFs and Lambdas, but not a single Keyes. No one is interested. |
At this point, I think the only way the developers will increase activity on Keyes would be to actually remove BAF and Lambda from the game. That would in essence FORCE people to run the newer trials. [Not saying the developers will actually do that, just as a for-instance]. I am very hopeful that the new trials will not be as horrible as Keyes, really really hoping a LOT.
If they are as bad, look for lots of continued BAF/Lam teams and the shunning of the newer content. People like new, but if the new is not any fun they'll stick with the quick way, and you can take that basic fact of human nature to the bank. Being Held and/or killed in the hospital is one of the least-fun game mechanics I have yet to run across.
I'm still hoping that, when the rewards are upped, I can find someone that wants to run it. I had one nibble here on the boards, but it evaporated.
I have yet to run *one* Keyes. Tons of BAFs and Lambdas, but not a single Keyes. No one is interested. |
I don't see usage of Keyes increasing at all due to that other trial arriving at the same time. That trial is 100 times more relaxing to play (NOT EASIER) than Keyes.
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I can understand the size of the pulse upsetting some players but it's an incarnate trial and as such it's not really unreasonable to design it so that most characters would find rebirth worth slotting for the trial. Between rebirth, green insps and aid self there are enough ways that incarnates can give themselves more survivability against the pulse if they choose to. Multiple builds means aid self could be taken just for a trial build if neccessary.
This. It's frustrating as hell to have a healing power ready to save them but not be able to spot the character (for targetting) in a full league. EDIT: Forgot to say that in the main I find Keyes reasonably fun - it's a challenge that can be nigh on impossible with people running about like headless chickens but can be made a whole lot easier by players paying attention. At this level of game the trials shouldn't be easy run-with-my-eyes-closed-whilst-asleep affairs. The worst part of Keyes isn't any of the trials design - it's finding enough other players who do/will pay attention. |
If you make something non-frustrating and with mechanics that aren't nearly impossible to see based on this game's age-showing UI, folks will play it.
The first two proved that and I suspect third one will prove that again.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
The fact that no one is interested should tell you volumes, just in and of itself.
At this point, I think the only way the developers will increase activity on Keyes would be to actually remove BAF and Lambda from the game. That would in essence FORCE people to run the newer trials. [Not saying the developers will actually do that, just as a for-instance]. I am very hopeful that the new trials will not be as horrible as Keyes, really really hoping a LOT. If they are as bad, look for lots of continued BAF/Lam teams and the shunning of the newer content. People like new, but if the new is not any fun they'll stick with the quick way, and you can take that basic fact of human nature to the bank. Being Held and/or killed in the hospital is one of the least-fun game mechanics I have yet to run across. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Almost as frustrating: getting out the hospital door, and getting no further than 50 feet away from the door when one is killed YET AGAIN. This can happen multiple times.
After about four of those, my incentive to even try to help my team is just about gone. This trial is *all about* intentional frustration of the player, and that is just not enjoyable.
I can deal with difficulty, such as the Apex TF which by now is easy for me. Keyes is just crap, and yeah.... just... crap.
Keyes to me is the anomaly of the Trials and TF's thus far. There's usually a period of requisite byotching once something new comes live, and then three-four weeks later, we're getting tells for speed runs and duo runs.
Keyes isn't like that . Its much harder to crack. The coordination level is much more difficult, and teamwork is an absolute must.
So, in that vein, I would not recommend a change to the Trial. Hard stuff is hard because it is hard. What I WOULD recommend is a commensurate reward . People run BAF's and LAM's b/c they can be done in their sleep at this point. Keyes needs red bull and caffene. So if you want to see more peeps attempt the Trial, more carrot . Don't do anything with the stick.
56 attempts later, Master of the Keyes Island Reactor. Bite Me, Anti Matter.
I would design a different option option so I never have to touch it.
More directly, though, Keyes is a good piece of content to do so you can say you accomplished it. A good thing to have with a badge just for finishing so people who need to brag can do so and people who want to see if they can accomplish something can give it a go.
It is terrible for something you need to repeat a dozen times.
It is designed and operates like an event, not like the grind that it is supposed to be.
I enjoy Keyes as it is, but have thought that it deserved an added completion bonus since launch. The 1 Emp (then 1 astral if you do it again) is a pretty good bump.
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I would design a different option option so I never have to touch it.
More directly, though, Keyes is a good piece of content to do so you can say you accomplished it. A good thing to have with a badge just for finishing so people who need to brag can do so and people who want to see if they can accomplish something can give it a go. It is terrible for something you need to repeat a dozen times. It is designed and operates like an event, not like the grind that it is supposed to be. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day, SET a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Incarnates: K'lir(Fire/Dark Corr):Hot-House Flower(Plant/Fire Dom):Kinrad X(Kin/Rad Def):Itsy-Bitsy Spider(Crab):Two Ton Tony(Mace/WP Broot):Teeny Weeny Widow(Fortunata/Widow) : Zeroth Law (Ice/Fire Tank)
Keyes to me is the anomaly of the Trials and TF's thus far. There's usually a period of requisite byotching once something new comes live, and then three-four weeks later, we're getting tells for speed runs and duo runs.
Keyes isn't like that . Its much harder to crack. The coordination level is much more difficult, and teamwork is an absolute must. So, in that vein, I would not recommend a change to the Trial. Hard stuff is hard because it is hard. What I WOULD recommend is a commensurate reward . People run BAF's and LAM's b/c they can be done in their sleep at this point. Keyes needs red bull and caffene. So if you want to see more peeps attempt the Trial, more carrot . Don't do anything with the stick. |
This is where we differ. I can deal with a trial or TF that is strategically difficult. But I don't see any benefit to repeatedly getting 50 feet from the hospital door and then instantly killed. Rez in the hospital, wash-rinse-repeat.
There's no way I can avoid that, unless I am on a heavily shielded character. There is no strategy whatsoever that a [for instance] Blaster can use to avoid the Death Pulses. That does not make me play any smarter, it doesn't do a thing but frustrate me and cause me to rack up debt. If you are on anything except an alt with a powerful Heal or an alt with his shields [and everything else] IO'ed out, you are in for a very painful time.
The end AV fight is just laughably stupid. Its stupid! There, I said it. Stupid.
Judging from the dearth of people lining up to participate in this abysmally un-fun excuse for a trial, it seems that many players agree.
I enjoy Keyes as it is, but have thought that it deserved an added completion bonus since launch. The 1 Emp (then 1 astral if you do it again) is a pretty good bump.
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Right now, I figure Keyes would have to be worth at least three Empyrean Merits for me to try and run it. I would not run it more than once a day - I would try to complete it for the Empyreans and then run Lambdas and BAFs for component drops (and of course, a couple more Empyrean Merits).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
An interesting thing about the new Undeground Trial is that while it gives insane amounts of both types of IXP, it also has things happening in the final fight that can wipe out an entire league in one go.
Some early calculations from the beta suggested that a player could open both Lore and Destiny with only 4-5 runs of it - but that could be balanced out by the bigger chance of failure, and the fact that the fewer runs there are, the fewer end reward tables there are to give the salvage needed to fill the slots.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
If only the devs would have added other Trials, so that players wouldn't be forced to run Keyes to progress.
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Do you really not understand that most people want the devs to create new, alternative things for players to do that aren't broadly unpopular? That's a waste of developer/designer time that produces something that so few people want to do that the people who actually do want to do it can't do it anyway.
The question in the OP, and thus hopefully the thread, is about what could have been done to make something very few people want to play into something enough people would want to play that someone could find a league willing to run it on a regular basis. The answer to that should not be "ignore it and do the other stuff". That's just idiotic. Perhaps not because it makes sense for the devs to actually "fix" Keyes, but at the very least because we don't want them to make more trials that so many people want to avoid.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
"Hard stuff because it is hard."
This is where we differ. I can deal with a trial or TF that is strategically difficult. But I don't see any benefit to repeatedly getting 50 feet from the hospital door and then instantly killed. Rez in the hospital, wash-rinse-repeat. There's no way I can avoid that, unless I am on a heavily shielded character. There is no strategy whatsoever that a [for instance] Blaster can use to avoid the Death Pulses. That does not make me play any smarter, it doesn't do a thing but frustrate me and cause me to rack up debt. If you are on anything except an alt with a powerful Heal or an alt with his shields [and everything else] IO'ed out, you are in for a very painful time. The end AV fight is just laughably stupid. Its stupid! There, I said it. Stupid. Judging from the dearth of people lining up to participate in this abysmally un-fun excuse for a trial, it seems that many players agree. |
the only thing i dont fully agree with is the AV fight since thats prolly the only semi good thing about keyes trial
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
An interesting thing about the new Undeground Trial is that while it gives insane amounts of both types of IXP, it also has things happening in the final fight that can wipe out an entire league in one go.
Some early calculations from the beta suggested that a player could open both Lore and Destiny with only 4-5 runs of it - but that could be balanced out by the bigger chance of failure, and the fact that the fewer runs there are, the fewer end reward tables there are to give the salvage needed to fill the slots. |
You can already do that by running small team trials.
On topic, the difficulty of Keyes is fine in general its just too long and repetitive. Cut the terminals/reactor down to 5, delay anti matters spawn an additional 30 seconds. This would bring the time for the reactor phases in line with the collection phase for lambda.
Do you really not understand that most people want the devs to create new, alternative things for players to do that aren't broadly unpopular?
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Some early calculations from the beta suggested that a player could open both Lore and Destiny with only 4-5 runs of it - but that could be balanced out by the bigger chance of failure, and the fact that the fewer runs there are, the fewer end reward tables there are to give the salvage needed to fill the slots.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Ten Emps would make me consider it.