What would you do to make Keyes fun?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-08-24 14:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
OK I am just gonna come out and say it. This trial is only hard because 90% of the player base is to damn lazy to pay attention to the info bar and/or follow instructions. This trial is easy if you pay attention.
The stratgey we use is easy. Kill 30 and nominate three people to collect temps. While said three people are collecting the rest stay together to form a healing bubble and move terminal to terminal so they can be taken care of.
Next reactor is just as easy. everyone targets through one person and kills the EBS. For every two done they pass temps to one person and those three collectors from last time are clearing terminals (with breaks back to the healing bubble as needed) and getting them activated. Once AM shows up same as other reactor, follow. clear and lead AM around while STAYING TOGETHER (A foreign concept I know).
Third reactor is as easy as first. Each team clears the doors and mobs and lets the collectors collect. Start on clearing each level and having collectors get what is needed as you go. Rinse and repeat for when AM shows up.
Final battle is so stupidly simple it is painful. PAY ATTENTION TO THE WINDOW!! How hard is that? Also if you are to damn stupid to not notice a HUGE GLOWING GREEN PATCH on the ground you deserve to be hit by it. As for the time stop he does that at around 80%, 50%, and 20% health. Watch his health bar and back away as needed. Why people have a hard time with this is beyond me. I just think most of the player-base wants to be on auto pilot for their rewards and do nothing that resembles a challenge.
Shadowy Presence - Absolutely, positively worse than playing a Kheldian... --Myrmydon
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A big problem for Keyes is that even with the Empyrean bump, there's other ways to get Empyreans. And in fact, those other ways are faster! | Uber: Right now, I figure Keyes would have to be worth at least three Empyrean Merits for me to try and run it. I would not run it more than once a day - I would try to complete it for the Empyreans and then run Lambdas and BAFs for component drops (and of course, a couple more Empyrean Merits). |
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| Teldon: OK I am just gonna come out and say it. This trial is only hard because 90% of the player base is to damn lazy to pay attention to the info bar and/or follow instructions. This trial is easy if you pay attention. |
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| Also if you are to damn stupid to not notice a HUGE GLOWING GREEN PATCH on the ground you deserve to be hit by it. |
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Nothing. It's fun.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
So what would you do to make this trial more fun for you?
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Carefully read what a lot of posters in this thread are saying. At least half of them outright say they don't think the Keyes trial is particularly hard. What they say is that it's not enjoyable, and that it's not a good return on time spent for the end reward.|
Originally Posted by Teldon
OK I am just gonna come out and say it. This trial is only hard because 90% of the player base is to damn lazy to pay attention to the info bar and/or follow instructions. This trial is easy if you pay attention.
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Content that's not got a great reward per time invested will still be played if enough people think it's a lot of fun. Stuff that's not especially fun will still be played if the reward is high enough (though I think that's a last resort way to get people to play stuff). Keyes is pretty clearly widely considered not worth it and not fun. How "hard" it is doesn't even need to factor in.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Yup, because "paying attention" completely negates things like the Death Pulses.... OR NOT....
Of course! The fact that enough powers and AoEs are being fired off/running [by players packed into a relatively small space] for the average Hami raid, means that those green patches on the ground are very very easy to see! I'll get right on that! *facepalm* |
Yup and apparently you don't know how to stay with a healing umbrella to negate the pulse or look at an info window that gives you time to get out before big green patch of death hits.
Shadowy Presence - Absolutely, positively worse than playing a Kheldian... --Myrmydon
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Didn't the Devs say that was the original design for fighting Hami? I faintly remember a post about it saying something to the effect of:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its like the original Hamidon that was designed to have the players all attack from range and all simultaneously move to the same new firing spot at the same time when the mito bloom occurred, twice. Its worth noting the players actually *thought up* this solution to Hami, and mostly concluded we'd never be able to coordinate it well enough to ever be worth whatever reward Hamidon could possibly give.
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"Yeah, the original idea we had when designing it was you let the Yellow Dawn happen, then pull Hami into a corner to continue the fight."
followed with
"And no, we've never been able to do it that way ourselves."
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Of course I don't know how! I completely ignore that teammate who has journeyed over to the hospital door with the specific intention of providing a "healing umbrella" for me so that I won't die again as I try to rejoin my team.|
Originally Posted by Teldon
Yup and apparently you don't know how to stay with a healing umbrella to negate the pulse or look at an info window that gives you time to get out before big green patch of death hits.
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.... or wait, I *don't* have a "healing umbrella" waiting to escort me back, so your argument is null. Ditto the fact that I have to move around to avoid various effects in the final AV fight.
It is awesome for you that you evidently have someone with a powerful and fast heal joined to you at the hip, Siamese-twin style who is escorting you personally through Keyes. The rest of us who lack this luxury will just go run something else, most likely.
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As much as I dislike the trial, I would probably do it for 10 emp merits. I still wouldn't have fun doing it, and I wouldn't do it every day, but...
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
This. I don't care if they up the Empyreans to 10 per run, I am STILL not running this. I will not form a league to run it, I will not join leagues to run it.
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Look if folks refuse to buy green from the vendor while in the hospital that is there problem. You have plenty of time to get back to the team between pulses. If you can't build a good team from your friends list or with others that you play with on server that is your problem.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Of course I don't know how! I completely ignore that teammate who has journeyed over to the hospital door with the specific intention of providing a "healing umbrella" for me so that I won't die again as I try to rejoin my team.
.... or wait, I *don't* have a "healing umbrella" waiting to escort me back, so your argument is null. Ditto the fact that I have to move around to avoid various effects in the final AV fight. It is awesome for you that you evidently have someone with a powerful and fast heal joined to you at the hip, Siamese-twin style who is escorting you personally through Keyes. The rest of us who lack this luxury will just go run something else, most likely. |
Shadowy Presence - Absolutely, positively worse than playing a Kheldian... --Myrmydon
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And LAM is largely the same as Keyes in terms of frustration - not as bad, but the same disincentive to run it does exist. It's funny, it's almost as if most people just run BAF over and over again. I wonder if that was the original intention - hmmmm.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If only the devs would have added other Trials, so that players wouldn't be forced to run Keyes to progress.
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And then Jesus will bake us cupcakes.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
More Trials are coming - they're even planning holiday themed Trials - although those mightn't give Incarnate rewards
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Triumph usually starts out with a few Lam's, then moves onto BAFs for the main part of the day, then finishes off with a Keyes. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
And LAM is largely the same as Keyes in terms of frustration - not as bad, but the same disincentive to run it does exist. It's funny, it's almost as if most people just run BAF over and over again. I wonder if that was the original intention - hmmmm.
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My trial days usually end up being:
Lam: 2
Baf: 4
Keyes: 1
BAF is just such a brain dead trial, it's easy to knock out a bunch in a row when you have over 16 people, but just don't feel like spending twice the time on Keyes :P Probably be running it as much as Lam once it's 2 emps.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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As is appropriate to content intended as a grind.
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Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
BAF is just such a brain dead trial, it's easy to knock out a bunch in a row when you have over 16 people
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BAF doesn't even feel like a grind to me, it's just less fun than the other two (less thinking). I'm just liking having a reason to unretire a bunch of my 50's, although I am looking forward to making a bunch of new toons in i21.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
As is appropriate to content intended as a grind.
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<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
i want more AV's like at each ractor there is a different av standing on top of each one even while we gotta be pulling antimatter around with us
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You mean spend all that development time on Trials designed to force players to only play the BAF? |
Originally Posted by rsclark
And LAM is largely the same as Keyes in terms of frustration - not as bad, but the same disincentive to run it does exist. It's funny, it's almost as if most people just run BAF over and over again. I wonder if that was the original intention - hmmmm.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I like the Keyes trial, but there are a few things that miff me. Dealing with those would be rather encouraging and I think would make the raid more popular:
~Reduce the number of gimmicks. I like the Obliteration Beam, so that's welcome to stay. Same with the computer/recharge bit. His debuff aura and/or Entanglement is probably the best nomination for getting cut. I'm not even sure what those are supposed to do precisely.
~Disintegration needs some sort of change. Right now, it seems entirely too easy for one or two bad players to completely screw the rest of the League over, generally by accident. Either (a)make the recharge on the power longer, (b)reduce the number of ticks, so there's one little "warning" one and one big one that's the main point, or (c)make it so stopping the Disintegration has a benefit to the fight.
~Fix the wonky badge requirements. Loves a Challenge has the "oh, and don't die" requirement that doesn't have anything to do with letting Anti-Matter heal (which is thematic and makes sense). Bunker Buster is like Synchronized, but many times more punishing. Either set it up so it only needs to be done once, or let the three times be spread over multiple trials. And either way award the damn badge when the objective is completed! Don't make it necessary to play all the way to the end to know if you got it or not. The other two badges are fine the way they are, but these two need to be fixed.
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entanglement is isnt a debuff aura thing its like a mapwide thing|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I like the Keyes trial, but there are a few things that miff me. Dealing with those would be rather encouraging and I think would make the raid more popular:
~Reduce the number of gimmicks. I like the Obliteration Beam, so that's welcome to stay. Same with the computer/recharge bit. His debuff aura and/or Entanglement is probably the best nomination for getting cut. I'm not even sure what those are supposed to do precisely. |
the entanglement basically says if you are alpha entangled you suffer from X from each beta entangled player your near (like within melee range)
the stuff entanglement does to you is so minimal its barely noticeable and prolly why most poeple have no idea what it actually does
it does a minor DoT (like ticks of 4 or 5 energy dmg), small amounts of -def, -resist, -tohit, -recov, and -regen (as mentioned the numbers are so minimal they are hardly noticeable, especially with debuff resistance from self or from the ageless destiny), and it only even applies if your standing near opposite entanglements, if everyone is moving around and your rarely standing near anyone, then no it will do literally nothing
Hm.
I've run this 2-3 times now with experienced people at the helm. Each time we were successful at the trial, not always at the badge gathering.
The only thing that bugs me about it is "Entanglement". I have no idea what entanglement means, what it does, and what I should do about it beyond the fact that some people have 'alpha' and some people get 'beta'.
* The trial doesn't explain entanglement.
* The wiki only offers a vague warning: "After the Obliteration Beam fires, leaguemates will be affected by various forms of Entanglement, which are short-term contagious debuffs and damage."
* Whatever contagious debuffs and damage are happening are overwhelmed by all the other Anti-Matter bells and whistles going off at the same time.
So, to answer the question: Dump entanglement.
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Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
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Teldon, I think it's fair to say given how the majority of posters have been posting very reasonable and valid criticisms of this trial, including a highly respected forum member in Arcanaville, you are coming off as a complete PANCAKE.|
Originally Posted by Teldon
Look if folks refuse to buy green from the vendor while in the hospital that is there problem. You have plenty of time to get back to the team between pulses. If you can't build a good team from your friends list or with others that you play with on server that is your problem.
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You're essentially saying to people 'oh hey it's your fault that you can't play'. I've heard that 'learn to play noob' argument before and it's insulting and frankly ignorant to the point of being dangerous. You raid, you raid with friends, that's great. But here's the problem.
City of Heroes never has, never is, and never will be a raiding game. If you look around most posts, people come here to play a casual-oriented game without the ridiculous caveats attached to most MMO's in gear grinding, gear itself, repair bills, gated gear and weapon advancement and so on. And that's been the way here for seven years before these Trials came along.
To ask people to participate in something that's so very demonstrably unpleasant and unintertaining as the Keyes Trial is going against that established community mentality. And you insinuating that people are somehow deficient for not having the right friends and/or abilities is also against that, and demonstrates a distinct lack of understanding on your part.
Right. Now that that's off my chest, I'd like to chip in my thoughts. I've played Keyes once. And I posted about it almost directly after the event, because it set off my triggers for anxiety to the point where I stopped dead in my tracks and had to spend several minutes calming down as the chaos exploded around me. Now, I was initially very biased against this Trial, but I've taken the time to think more rationally about it.
- The overall feel of the Trial is 'garbled'. From a story standpoint, it makes little or no sense that Cole would even allow Anti-Matter to get to this point, and if it succeeded on a permanent level, it'd fundamentally change the Praetorian story. And seeing as some story elements are being included in this Trial, a change I'd want to see is restraining Anti-Matter and not have the 'the reactors will blow and the city goes with it' part. We know Cole wouldn't let this happen, so go with that. It can still be a threat, but it overstates Anti-Matter's importance and also overstates the nature of the challenge.
- Hand in hand with that is the garbled nature of the mechanics of the Trial. As others have said, this does anything but promote teamwork and cohesive actions. One of my biggest complaints about Trials is that far, far too many Trial leaders and regular players simply assume people know how the Trials go and/or think they have read guides. I even had that said to me after a Trial today, in fact. I am in the camp of Trials and the Incarnate System to be a necessary evil for me because I have some characters that would thematically benefit from it. But having three towers with little or no guide as to which to start on first, let alone how correctly to proceed is against the very nature of teamwork and you can't expect all Trial leaders to have the strength of personality to wrangle twenty-four other people. The mobs appear to spawn...well, because they can. Anti-Matter gives off a damage pulse...because he can.
- The mechanics don't help; just because Anti-Matter can do a damage pulse or freeze time doesn't mean he should. Arcanaville is right when he says it's overly gimmicky and it is. No other Trial to date tries to pack in three other Trials' worth of mechanics like this one does. And I will honestly point a finger at Positron and say that there is a bit of vanity in the design. I'd really expect the big tricks and super-difficult enemy to be Emperor Cole; you know...the guy who's the Well's current champion? Yes, Anti-Matter is a Praetor, but he's not the Praetor. Combine that with unresistable damage pulses, and you have a distinctly unfun experience. My first and only experience with this Trial gave me the feeling that I was experiencing a power-levelling min/maxer's dream scenario. This is who you'd be if you wanted the nearly unbeatable character with loads of dues ex machina powers. To me that hides a straw man of a character that relies on smoke and mirrors to hide something of not much substance.
If the point is to shut down the reactors, then don't spawn the mobs on the ground. Have them strategically placed to defend. Clearly define what the objective is. Don't be afraid to have Anti-Matter tell you what's going on, by shouting and ranting to 'get away from that!' and so on.
The supposed 'stealth' part of the mission shouldn't be handled sequentially in the mission, it should be a chance for Stalkers and invisible characters to shine, which is what all characters and their character of choice want in the end. I had the impression the Trial would have a seperate component of stealth and subterfuge; instead, the bulldozer just barrels on over there.
And ultimately, make the tricks things you can overcome rather than just have to accept, nose and newspaper style. The first two Trials are fine examples of this, and by all accounts so is the Underground Trial.
It couldn't hurt to learn from that.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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To clarify, I know how Entanglement works. I just don't know what it does to me other than "minor debuff that I can probably ignore if I'm not Disintegrating". Similarly, I know how his PBAoE debuff works as well, but I'm not really familiar with what the effects of it are. And in both cases, it's rather hard to notice and pay attention when there are other, more significant issues that I'm also trying to simultaneously manage.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
it does a minor DoT (like ticks of 4 or 5 energy dmg), small amounts of -def, -resist, -tohit, -recov, and -regen (as mentioned the numbers are so minimal they are hardly noticeable, especially with debuff resistance from self or from the ageless destiny), and it only even applies if your standing near opposite entanglements, if everyone is moving around and your rarely standing near anyone, then no it will do literally nothing
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After being on several Keyes trials that have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, I will loudly proclaim that many people cannot play and yes, it is their fault.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
You're essentially saying to people 'oh hey it's your fault that you can't play'.
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VIRTUE
Agahnim- Elec/Ice Blaster
"Elec/Ice. Nice. Holy <@*&$@#!> =) You're like the CoH equivalent of those bdsm people who hang from the ceiling on hooks!"
-Plasmar
Agahnim Dragmire- Warshade
"(You spin space webs. =D)"
-Paladin
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more accurately many folks CAN play if they take the time to LEARN it. However the encounter in question is so unfun they don't want to bother.|
Originally Posted by Agahnim
After being on several Keyes trials that have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, I will loudly proclaim that many people cannot play and yes, it is their fault.
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Especially since there are things that are MORE fun that they can do to get the same or better rewards.
funny that.
AKA Keyes is not hard if you take the time to learn it. But for a majority of the player base that dreck isn't worth learning. Having spent an entire day (literally from 12am to 12 am of the next day, with a few hours in between for lunch/dinner and other things on Pocket D on freedom) and having seen Keyes run a grand total of Twice, compared to the literally dozens of time the other two have been run, I think the player base has spoken.
AKA anyone who thinks most folks are saying Keyes is hard, hasn't been reading the thread or has a reading comprehension issue.
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It's a case of going into it with a BAF mindset. Keyes runs require teamwork and an active audience. Unlike BAF if you want to be successful you can't just shut off your brain and coast.
I think the damage pulse is manageable at it's current level. The final battle is so chaotic there may need to be some tweaks there. I'd follow everyone's suggestions and get rid of the entanglement since it's just ignored anyways. The suggestion to prevent Obliteration/Time stop/Disintegration overlap is also a very good one.
Edited to add substance and reduce innate snark.
VIRTUE
Agahnim- Elec/Ice Blaster
"Elec/Ice. Nice. Holy <@*&$@#!> =) You're like the CoH equivalent of those bdsm people who hang from the ceiling on hooks!"
-Plasmar
Agahnim Dragmire- Warshade
"(You spin space webs. =D)"
-Paladin
I've love to give feedback on this Trial but I have yet to see one formed, on Freedom no less, during my typical game time.
My game time isn't much lately, that I will admit. It's usually Friday night from ~9 pm - 12pm EST. And the same Sat or Sun night.
And I'm dead serious. I see BAFs and Lambdas forming right and left, but no Keyes. I've even asked if people had interest in one and I get the obvious 'lulz' from the players.
I know I will get on one eventually and I feel sorry for that league since it will be my first attempt and they will probably be short on patience like most players.