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I've seen very few of those people. However, it won't lead to a decrease in population. A small group going to the VIP server will be more than made up for by the massive influx of free players trying the game out.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Have you not seen the people saying "I want to move all my toons to the VIP server to get away from the F2P plague"?
I didn't say all, and not most, but some will. A decrease is a decrease, even if small. They may spread out among the servers and not agree on one central server to go to as well, except the VIP server. Those who choose to stay will find less people then. It's just a concern, not a certainty, that it will become obvious and problematic. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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But, that is something the child has to read and recognize to ask his parents about. There is nothing preventing them from logging in without parent consent, not even debit cards these days considering that they are so ubiquitous.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Really? This is the best you've got? From the EULA:
"(a) Eligibility. By clicking the "I Accept" button you represent that you are an adult 18 years of age or older or, if under 18 years of age, that you have the consent of a parent or guardian and will provide their details where requested. Those who have completed these steps and who maintain their Account in good standing are sometimes referred to in this Agreement as "Members." " Basically, the child shouldn't have been clicking the "I Agree" button without a parent's consent. And any lawyer would tell you the same. |
That clause only works when there is a means of preventing a person who, legally, is not liable for their own actions in the situation and is unable to proceed without help. Those that are able to proceed are assumed to be fully knowledgeable and capable despite the truth of the fact that they may not be either.
Go ahead; prove that a child asked his parents for permission before even buying the game and before playing it.
Implied consent doesn't even work, such as "you gave him a debit card" because such things are not only used for services that require consent.
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I'm talking about the incarnate system which will be exclusive to only subscribers. It will definitely likely see a decrease, per server at least except maybe the VIP one, because of subscribers choosing to unsubscribe or move to another server for whatever reason.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I've seen very few of those people. However, it won't lead to a decrease in population. A small group going to the VIP server will be more than made up for by the massive influx of free players trying the game out.
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It may not be large, but plenty of servers already have trouble forming large enough groups.
Yes, there may be new subscribers, but if they aren't currently subscribing then chances are they don't view the game as worth a subscription.
And, they can't be guaranteed to subscribe.
Leaving that system completely exclusive is a risky move.
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1) If it varies case by case then this case has not been tested and should be. Citing examples that do the same and are fine are not proof of your side of the argument either in that case.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
"What is certainly true of other fair services and products" varies on a case-by-case basis, and as such isn't at all "certainly true."
And, to the level of hyperbole, when I bought my car, I had to continue paying for gas in order for it to run. How illegal is that?!?!?!?! |
It has to be tried.
2) Gas is a product, not a service. It does not do something for you. You use it up. It does not get used up when you don't use it.
A car is the same way. Even if you don't drive it you can, even if it is illegal in many places for whatever reason(usually to do with drugs or alcohol), sleep in it or store stuff in it.
It may not be used for its full intended purpose, but it can be used for part of its purpose(protecting you from the elements, even if while you're sleeping instead of driving).
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No one is forcing you to do anything.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
You just keep forcing me to argue in circles, saying what is certainly true of other fair services and products, and not even trying to understand the logic of it that has made me, a former blissfully ignorant defensive follower, of the same model until I questioned it enough.
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I understand the flawed logic you have used to come to your point of view just fine.
Your logic, is, however, incorrect and that has pointed out to you repeatedly.
You do not have a leg to stand on in this matter, you are simply wrong.
Good luck with your lawsuit. Really, I want you to try it, so that it can be slapped down hard enough that others who attempt to use your flawed reasoning will take notice and not clog up our lives with such wrongness any further.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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What happened to the case about the person spilling hot coffee on themselves that they bought from Mcdonalds knowing, by sheer common sense, that it was hot?|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
No one is forcing you to do anything.
I understand the flawed logic you have used to come to your point of view just fine. Your logic, is, however, incorrect and that has pointed out to you repeatedly. You do not have a leg to stand on in this matter, you are simply wrong. Good luck with your lawsuit. Really, I want you to try it, so that it can be slapped down hard enough that others who attempt to use your flawed reasoning will take notice and not clog up our lives with such wrongness any further. |
Obviously, far more illogical and stupid things have been tried in court and resulted in a win for the plaintiff.(correction: resulted in at least a settlement and change of policy)
I'm pretty confident that if I wanted to I could get money, but I would rather have a good game that kill it to try and teach a lesson.
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In the McD case, it was proven that the coffee was, in fact, too hot.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
What happened to the case about the person spilling hot coffee on themselves that they bought from Mcdonalds knowing, by sheer common sense, that it was hot?
Obviously, far more illogical and stupid things have been tried in court and resulted in a win for the plaintiff. I'm pretty confident that if I wanted to I could get money, but I would rather have a good game that kill it to try and teach a lesson. |
Also, not that many people ever thought the world was flat.
You really should get better ammo before you start firing.
I don't think for a minute you would win and neither do you. It is painfully obvious that you are realizing how wrong you are and now you are back tracking.
Please, sue them. Go for it.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck...7s_Restaurants|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
What happened to the case about the person spilling hot coffee on themselves that they bought from Mcdonalds knowing, by sheer common sense, that it was hot?
Obviously, far more illogical and stupid things have been tried in court and resulted in a win for the plaintiff.(correction: resulted in at least a settlement and change of policy) I'm pretty confident that if I wanted to I could get money, but I would rather have a good game that kill it to try and teach a lesson. |
Please read the bit about "frivolous lawsuits"...
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Guys, I'm almost out of popcorn. Can we stop feeding the troll now.
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Mo, I'm not backtracking. I still have plenty of things to use that I have posted here.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
In the McD case, it was proven that the coffee was, in fact, too hot.
Also, not that many people ever thought the world was flat. You really should get better ammo before you start firing. I don't think for a minute you would win and neither do you. It is painfully obvious that you are realizing how wrong you are and now you are back tracking. Please, sue them. Go for it. |
Also whether the coffee was too hot or not, the person knew it would be hot and that spilling it would not be good. The Mcdonalds did not spill it and did not need to do anything differently. They didn't even need to pay as much as they paid.
That person got a huge settlement for their own stupid mistake, and I'm pretty sure it was actually intentional, especially since nobody could prove the coffee was too hot after it spilled, even a burn on the skin could be faked especially if planned ahead of time.
I'm not even going to pull stupid illegal crap like that.
I just don't want to take anyone to court. I wouldn't want to be taken to court.
I'm not sue-happy. I just want a fair deal and want companies to stop double-dipping into my wallet and everything.
I don't want to kill this game with a lawsuit, which may be pretty likely with a big settlement especially with others claiming damages in a class action suit that would follow the same example.
It's a big issue for companies that they need to heed and prevent, which will result in fairer pricing and service for us customers.
I don't need to go sue and get more than I need or deserve for it. I just want a fair deal.
Hi. I'm a 7 year veteran and in no way do I feel entitled to get everything for free if I stop paying my subscription and step down to premium. Paragon has been very straight forward that this is a "hybrid" model not a free to play. The real change is what they listed on the main page today. Trial accounts are coming to and end with the Free model be the new trial version of the game. WoW recently went to something similar, but you can't levelast 20 and have zero access to the auction house, mail, and personal tells (sound familiar).
I intend to remain a veteran and "support" the game I have come to enjoy. I feel good that my continual fee will support the product and I will be paying for the items on the market if I don't have enough paragon points at the time. Why? Because Paragon never hid what the differences would be. They presented it openly and honestly. If you don't like the new model simply unsubscribe and leave the game or play it for free. Complaining about material after you fully grasp what was presented is not a way to go. The business model is sound and, again as a 7 year veteran, I fully support it.
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Which is why I'm confident "if that one can win then I have a lot better chance".|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck...7s_Restaurants
Please read the bit about "frivolous lawsuits"... |
What was your point? Are you just throwing links out and trying to get me to magically read your mind?
Links don't prove your point when you have no evident point.
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Why am I even continuing this when you people should be thinking it over?
If you don't think then there is no point in asking you to think.
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It takes seconds to realize you are wrong, there is no need to think it over.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Edit:
Why am I even continuing this when you people should be thinking it over? If you don't think then there is no point in asking you to think. |
I am a well paid troubleshooter, tasked to come up with worst cases for my company daily.
Your logic is flawed, it will not float.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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You just don't get it... and, apparently, you never will. We don't OWN THE CONTENT... it is not ours to play with when we want. This is not a boxed game where you have all the data on disk and you have paid for the program. |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Yes, but then why charge for the content as an ownership fee at all?
Why can we not use the product offline when it costs them nothing for that so long as we pay for the content to cover the cost of the content. |
We pay for the ability to access THEIR PROPRIETARY CONTENT and servers. We can not use it offline because it is not ours to use. Even the characters that you create are not yours. They are owned by NCSoft. That is in the EULA. You are paying for the ability access them.
And you are paying for it at about 50 cents a day... that's less than 3 cents an hour to use their servers and their programs. If you don't want to pay, then you shouldn't gripe about what they want to give you access to for free.
You don't hit smiling monsters - Sister Flame
A frivolous thread about frivolous lawsuits... time to add some more frivolity.
I claim this thread in the name of The Church of the Drunken Squirrel!
All donations are to be made in the form of Guinness.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
I have one thing, well, no 3 things to say...
1st, my GOD what a waste of several minutes of my life! I should sue you for a sliver of my life I'm never getting back!!!
2nd, love the game, will keep subscribing... Beta means, not really ready for prime time.
3rd, As to the McDonalds lawsuit... Yes, it is true that perhaps the lady should not have placed a very hot cup of coffee in between her thighs as she drove away, but the negligence came from placing the coffee in a cup normally used for fountain drinks (ones that are sealed at the bottom with WAX and the bottom fell off). Imagine, if you will, that you are driving away from an eatery with a cup of very hot java lava betwixt your nethers, and all of a sudden YOUR crotch is drenched in +150 degree liquid... Do you find the coffee-stewed lady-parts an acceptable risk for a steaming morning beverage?
I am not reading this obituary of common sense again, and kudos to those of you who tried reason. You are patient people...
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Variations have been tried repeatedly, all fail for a variety of reasons. And there is a trump card underlying all of this that is essentially an automatic lose for you no matter what sort of legal trickery you attempt. If, as you argue, the EULA and the service terms are legally inconsistent, that doesn't mean NCSoft has actually broken the law, it means there does not exist a valid contract anyone can agree to in order to use the service. If you believe the terms of the service are "illegal" you have an obligation under US contract law to deem the service contract invalid, understand you now have no valid terms under which to use the service, and discontinue using the service. Failing to do so for the length of time you appear to have done so would be considered tacit agreement with the spirit of the contract, and the best you could hope to have happen is to have the contract declared void, and for NCSoft to terminate service until a different contract could be constructed that contains legal terms. Your ability to attempt to recover any of the money you paid would be considered in light of the fact you continued to accept service, and would be considered also invalid.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Maybe. I admit that, especially if you were the judge having a vested interest in your own habit of paying for content and subscribing being justified and legal rather than having been taken advantage of.
There are other people out there though. You are not in control of the legal system no completely objective, without a vested interest either way. I would still like to see this tried if companies will not be more fair to their customers voluntarily. |
It is a foundational principle of US contract law that contracts, by definition, cannot contain impossible or illegal terms on either party. Such contracts are not "illegal" they legally do not exist. To the extent that NCSoft might be in violation of US contract law you would be as well, as a voluntary party to a contract that was void in the US. Your status as a "victim" as the plaintiff of such a lawsuit would be essentially nil. This is the *best* case achievable under US contract law. The worst case is that your lawyer has sanctions applied for promoting a frivolous lawsuit and for NCSoft to request and be granted recovery of legal fees as a frivolous lawsuit.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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About once a year there's a discussion about whether we even own our own creations. Legally, we own the copyright to our creations as a matter of US copyright law. However, we do not own anything our creations are entangled with, meaning NCSoft intellectual property. That includes the copyrightable portions of the story content (i.e. the villain groups and their descriptions), the artwork (i.e. the 3D models and textures in the character creator) and the powers data (i.e. the specifics of powersets and abilities). That would make the tiny sliver of content you do own impossible to actually use anywhere (without intense scrubbing of intellectual property entanglements) without NCSoft permission. Furthermore, NCSoft has no legal obligation to grant to you any access to any system that might host that content, because in the EULA you granted to them a license to use that content as they see fit and you accepted the fact that you do not own or have any intrinsic right to any of the physical systems that host all game content except as allowed by the service contract.
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Originally Posted by Chuckers
We don't OWN THE CONTENT
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Weren't you Done With This Thread (/ragequit) about two pages ago? Don't stick around on our account. Go back to muttering semi-audibly in the back corner of the bus shelter and leave the rest of us out of it.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Why am I even continuing this when you people should be thinking it over?
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From the page you didn't read at all.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Also whether the coffee was too hot or not, the person knew it would be hot and that spilling it would not be good. The Mcdonalds did not spill it and did not need to do anything differently. They didn't even need to pay as much as they paid.
That person got a huge settlement for their own stupid mistake, and I'm pretty sure it was actually intentional, especially since nobody could prove the coffee was too hot after it spilled, even a burn on the skin could be faked especially if planned ahead of time. I'm not even going to pull stupid illegal crap like that. |
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| she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent. She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds (38 kg). Two years of medical treatment followed. |
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Originally Posted by BeornAgain
3rd, As to the McDonalds lawsuit... Yes, it is true that perhaps the lady should not have placed a very hot cup of coffee in between her thighs as she drove away, but the negligence came from placing the coffee in a cup normally used for fountain drinks (ones that are sealed at the bottom with WAX and the bottom fell off). Imagine, if you will, that you are driving away from an eatery with a cup of very hot java lava betwixt your nethers, and all of a sudden YOUR crotch is drenched in +150 degree liquid... Do you find the coffee-stewed lady-parts an acceptable risk for a steaming morning beverage?
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Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Dude.
You're ******* crazy.
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Actually, go find your original boxed copy. Go ahead, I'll wait. |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
1) I literally did pay for all base 10 archetypes, including masterminds and controllers, because I bought the first boxes that included them. If they are going to let us keep what we have purchased then they shouldn't be taking those archetypes away from me and those others who bought the boxes. |
Now do what I just did, and look thru all the paperwork in that box. All of it. No where does it say that you had bought anything (especially the right to play the 10 original ATs) but the box and what was physically inside it. A cd, maybe artwork, a game manual, a toy or 2 or 5 maybe. What was included along with what was physically in that box was a one month subscription fee valued at $14.99 or less and possibly the privilege (as long as you stay subscribed) to some ingame goodies- badges, temp power for all characters, costumes.
Now you get to the log-in screen and the EULA.You have to accept the EULA before they allow you to play. And after legalize and mumbo-jumbo big words, it basically says: This is our game/ intellectual property. You rent the privilege to access our servers. We determine what you have access to. Anything you do in game also becomes part of our property. You do not own anything in regards to our property. We can allow you access to the servers at our convenience/ pleasure. We can remove your privilege to access our servers as we please. We can change anything we like at any time. Your only official recourse is to stop paying your subscription.
In short follow-up, the game has evolved. The industry has evolved. The Devs are taking the game in a new direction. The Devs are changing what they determine to be your privileges/ rewards in their property. Your subscription has only paid for the privilege to access the servers.
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You didn't buy the content. You paid an enrollment fee to join the CoH and CoV communities, and your monthly sub is the maintenance fee to keep your account active.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I could have sworn that I paid about $50 for City of Villains and about $50 for City of Heroes, and an additional $30 for both with all 3-4 different versions I purchased over the years, which definitely included 5 archetypes each, "tanker, blaster, scrapper, defender AND controller" and "brute, corruptor, stalker, dominator AND mastermind".
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This is no different than a gym membership. Just because you pay to join and again each month to stay an active member doesn't mean you own the gym equipment.
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If you think I was saying that to be insulting to you, trust me I wasn't. It's a known fact that the guy who picks up his ball to go home, then turns around and says "and another thing..." never ever wins the argument.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
1) Forum tip of the day: Insult others when they accuse you of insulting them. It makes you look so much better. /sarcasm
(Yes, the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated, makes it perfectly fine for me to say that because you asked for it by treating me as such.) |
Calling the way you write rambling isn't an insult. It's a very recognizable form called stream of consciousness. Under normal circumstances, putting your thoughts down as they occur to you and then not editing for structure only works in creative applications, not argumentative. If you are editing your thoughts and structuring your posts, you're doing a poor job of it.
I'm really not trying to dismiss or insult you. I'm trying to point out fundamental flaws in your method of delivery so you stop blaming other people for not understanding what you're trying to say. Because in truth, a writer that blames his readers first is the one that's being insulting.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Edit:
I'm done with this topic because you people just dismiss it rather than ever think "what could make him right?" which would be the objective way of finding the truth.
You just keep forcing me to argue in circles, saying what is certainly true of other fair services and products, and not even trying to understand the logic of it that has made me, a former blissfully ignorant defensive follower, of the same model until I questioned it enough.
A few, off the top of my head:
When I bought my DC metro card, it cost me 10 bucks for the card, which had no money on it. I then had to put extra money on it in order to use the service (i.e., ride the metro).
When I had my cable installed, I had to set up a service appointment for them to set up the cable, and they charged me, but I didn't get any channels for free (certainly what I would consider bad service, but not illegal).
And, to the level of hyperbole, when I bought my car, I had to continue paying for gas in order for it to run. How illegal is that?!?!?!?!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus