Quote:
I think I love you XD
|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
I'm going to be quite Jingoistic here and say '**** the US and that kangaroo court they call a legal system'.
|
I don't think "jingoistic" means what you think it means.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I don't think "jingoistic" means what you think it means.
|
In 'my' country we aren't bound by a contract, that we have to accept before we can even see said contract.
1) By opening this shinkwrap you have accepted the EULA.
2) the EULA is contained within the jewel case, within the shrinkwrap with no way of checking it before hand.
Nor do we demand the rest of the world obey our **** legal system.
(Not that my country is perfect, its just better than the US, hence Jingoism.)
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Quote:
Right now: you lapse your subscription, you lose access to everything.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Why am I even continuing this when you people should be thinking it over?
If you don't think then there is no point in asking you to think. |
Once Freedom hits: you lapse your subscription, you lose access to some items.
Access to some features will be behind a paywall in Freedom, just like they are behind a paywall now (COV before the merge, GR, boosters).
What's there to think?
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leandro
Right now: you lapse your subscription, you lose access to everything.
Once Freedom hits: you lapse your subscription, you lose access to some items. Access to some features will be behind a paywall in Freedom, just like they are behind a paywall now (COV before the merge, GR, boosters). What's there to think? |
Did you miss the whole.... your subscription costs the same but gets you less thing?
No one is saying that you should get everything for ever, if you stop subscribing, but giving you a one off fee of $10's to access a powerset, when you have given them $15's already this month (and $15 last month, and the month before and so on) is complete BS.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Yes, but it is their right to try and increase revenue for the product they are providing us to play. It is a business and VIP get a points stipend per month to use however they please. The cost of the items is still not set in stone, but as it stands to get a power set you need only wait at least a mont (providing you withhold the current month's stipend) to get the set. They "could" have gone the Everquest route and charge for new content via expansion packs, but they opted to give us (VIP members) a way to obtain these items without purchasing them with real world money. They were already doing this with costume packs.
Note: Nowhere did they state we will stop getting free content. Or was the IDF costume set and Time Manipulation+ new round of proliferation missed? Thus, bringing it back to we will be getting more. If you don't wish to pay you need only be patient and that has been the status quo for some time now.
Quote:
That's not ruling that EULA's are illegal, that's ruling on the circumstances surrounding the acceptance of an EULA. But in every country I'm aware of that has an actual functioning legal system, its still the case that while you can opt out of an EULA that has such restrictions, you cannot make up your own terms of service and continue to use the service. In the absence of a valid EULA, declaring the one you're presented with to be invalid only means they can't enforce its terms, and you can't legally use the service.
|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
In 'my' country we aren't bound by a contract, that we have to accept before we can even see said contract.
1) By opening this shinkwrap you have accepted the EULA. 2) the EULA is contained within the jewel case, within the shrinkwrap with no way of checking it before hand. Nor do we demand the rest of the world obey our bat**** legal system. (Not that my country is perfect, its just better than the US, hence Jingoism.) |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I missed that, and continue to miss that. Only by sematical twisting is it possible to make that statement. As far as all information currently provided states, VIP subscribers will get more actual content for the same subscription price than they were getting before. The only way to state otherwise is to say that we used to get "all" and now we're getting less than "all" which is, on top of being factually inaccurate, silly besides. "All" is not a quantity, and ever since they decided to sell booster packs and boxed expansions, we've never had "all" for our subscription.
|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Did you miss the whole.... your subscription costs the same but gets you less thing?
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I just realized that, in addition to being daft, tiresome, and still alive, this thread is mis-titled. This is a comic book superhero game. Clearly the title of this thread should be, "I SAY THEE NAY!"
Quote:
Hell, you could even say ever since they decided to sell Collector's Edition versions with extras, we've never had "all" for the base price of game+sub
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I missed that, and continue to miss that. Only by sematical twisting is it possible to make that statement. As far as all information currently provided states, VIP subscribers will get more actual content for the same subscription price than they were getting before. The only way to state otherwise is to say that we used to get "all" and now we're getting less than "all" which is, on top of being factually inaccurate, silly besides. "All" is not a quantity, and ever since they decided to sell booster packs and boxed expansions, we've never had "all" for our subscription.
|
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
Your original post cited losing existing Archetypes and Powersets. If you subscribe, then you will have access to all your characters, all of the current ATs (they haven't announced any new ATs, but who knows what the future holds), and all of the current powersets. The only confirmed "premium" powersets are Beam Rifles and Street Justice. As an example that not all future powersets will be "premimum", the new Time Manipulation set is not going to be "premium" but will require a subscription.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Um....
No. No.... and double NO. My complaint is that my subscription now gets me less. The only times I've ever unsubscribed was when I really didn't want to or could not, play. What I would retain, doesn't matter a fig to me, If I unsubscribe, I don't play. But now my sub doesn't cover powersets any more, which is BS, since my sub hasn't reduced in price. |
And truth be known, I would not be surprised if the Beam Rifle and Street Justice sets don't eventually either make their way into the Paragon Rewards tree or just be flat out free to subscribers. After all, when City of Villains was released, I paid for it as a separate purchase. Now everyone gets it for free. Last year, when Going Rogue came out, I paid for that as an expansion. When Freedom comes out, all subscribers are gonna that for free as well. It therefore, would not surprise me to see the same thing occur with Premium sets.
- Garielle
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
|
Last I heard we are going to be getting a $5.00 credit in the store each month we pay our sub fee so we'll actually only be paying $10.00 a month to stay subbed instead of $15.
Quote:
I was about to reply to that message but Arcana already said what I was going to.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I missed that, and continue to miss that. Only by sematical twisting is it possible to make that statement. As far as all information currently provided states, VIP subscribers will get more actual content for the same subscription price than they were getting before. The only way to state otherwise is to say that we used to get "all" and now we're getting less than "all" which is, on top of being factually inaccurate, silly besides. "All" is not a quantity, and ever since they decided to sell booster packs and boxed expansions, we've never had "all" for our subscription.
|
Tangent: Incarnate access being VIP exclusive seems to be a sore point for some. What about having an "Incarnate Power License" that gives you access to the Incarnate stuff (much like we have AE and Inventions license) priced $5 for 30 days?
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
Quote:
The more I think about them, the less in general I like the idea of time-window licenses for Premium players. I think they only make sense in certain specific circumstances. Unlocking the use of crafting tables, maybe. Accessing the markets, maybe. Things that are, or more correctly can be treated as tangential excursions. AE access for sure. But activating IOs in your build that way seems wrong, because as a general rule those things become part of the character not easy to swap or remove, explicitly by design. And while I have no problem unlocking access to the incarnate trials on a time-limited basis, I'm much more conflicted about turning off what you earn in those trials once you earn them. If it was me, I would probably say you can unlock the trials for a month for a fee, but if you earn an Incarnate power during that month its yours to keep forever. I recognize that can be a gameable policy so its not clear cut, but that's probably where I would fall. As a general principle, I would say that things the players earn in-game through actual gameplay should be permanently usable in *most* cases. There are obvious exceptions for sanity sake. If the reward for running mission X is that it unlocks mission Y, but both X and Y are part of mission content in an unlockable part of the game, then obviously if you temporarily unlock that part of the game when it runs out you might be unable to do Y even after doing X. But progressional rewards in general seem more important to treat as "if the player earns them, they get to keep them" things.
|
Originally Posted by Leandro
I was about to reply to that message but Arcana already said what I was going to.
Tangent: Incarnate access being VIP exclusive seems to be a sore point for some. What about having an "Incarnate Power License" that gives you access to the Incarnate stuff (much like we have AE and Inventions license) priced $5 for 30 days? |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Go for it. |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Right now they do. I could sue them for past expenses, the box and content costs specifically(and get much more than I paid as a punishment to the company for screwing customers), for charging a secondary fee that was not agreed to on a signed form before purchase.
|
Seriously, I DARE you to attempt a lawsuit on this basis.
It will get laughed out of court. And they might fine you for frivolous litigation.
When you click on "I agree" every single time you log in, YOU ARE SIGNING IT. That is an electronic signature that is EVERY BIT as binding as you flying to northern California and signing a piece of paper in their office.
Part of the EULA is you agreeing to their terms of service, any fees they charge you are part of those terms.
You are renting access to their servers. THEIR servers. YOU do not own them and you have no rights to them other than what they allow you to have. Did you notice what ELSE is in the EULA? They reserve the right to change their terms of service at any point, with or without notification. And there is nothing you can do about that, because you AGREED TO IT.
Oh, you never actually READ the EULA? Well, that's what you get for signing something without reading it, isn't it?
The box you bought? That was a physical copy of the game itself. Since it is their product for sale, they can charge anything they like for that product and you can choose whether or not you want to pay what they ask. If they choose to give that product away for free several years after you bought it, they have every right to do so, because it is their product to do with as they please.
You don't have a leg to stand on in any lawsuit you file. But that's fine, people file frivolous lawsuits all the time that waste the court's time.
Word of advice: Have an idea what the hell you're talking about before you start throwing threats of litigation around.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Isn't there a saying about discussing potential litigation on the interwebz?|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Right now they do. I could sue them for past expenses, the box and content costs specifically(and get much more than I paid as a punishment to the company for screwing customers), for charging a secondary fee that was not agreed to on a signed form before purchase.
If they can ban you from accessing the content, not just the servers, then they are illegally banning you or illegally charging for the content, or illegally not allowing private use of the content. |
I highly advise you to contact a lawyer who will talk to you for free about your case before you spend any money.
Before that, I advise you to read the EULA that you agree to every time you log in.
Quote:
He has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. |
Originally Posted by all_hell
Isn't there a saying about discussing potential litigation on the interwebz?
I highly advise you to contact a lawyer who will talk to you for free about your case before you spend any money. Before that, I advise you to read the EULA that you agree to every time you log in. |
There isn't a judge on the planet that would find in his favor if he attempted to sue them.
The agreement is: You pay a subscription fee in return for access to the servers. You are NOT being charged for the content on the servers, just for access to them.
If the company who owns those servers chooses to let people have access to them on a limited basis free of charge, that is their prerogative. They are in no way, shape, or form obligated to give everyone equal access to the game free of charge, regardless of anything those people may have paid in the past.
Not one of us actually OWNS anything related to the game. When we bought a game box (if we did), we were essentially paying an enrollment fee. Thinking that you should be able to use everything for free because you bought a physical box is no different than buying a phone and thinking you should be able to make calls on it for free. ANY phone you buy will have a service fee associated with it, you don't get free service just because you bought the phone itself. This game is no different.
Because the developers decided they were going to allow limited access to the game free of charge does NOT, in any way, shape, or form mean that we are entitled to the same privileges as a paying subscriber when we are playing for free. It really is THAT simple.
I get the feeling T Immortalus is the kind of person who would demand that he be given a full meal when he is offered an appetizer for free, and complain when his demand is not met out of some sense that he deserves to have the same thing people are paying for given to him for nothing. The sheer amount of entitlement emanating from him is astounding.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
What the devs are doing with CoH Freedom is amending the agreement.
Subscribed players are not paying for content, and they will not be paying for content in the future. Their subscription fee grants them full access to the servers and everything on them.
Free and Premium players, however, will be paying for some of the content. The vast majority of it is free for them, but since they are being given access to the servers free of charge, they will have to pay for select pieces of content.
Buying a box does not give you any more privileges than downloading the game does. You aren't entitled to full access simply because you bought a physical object.
Just because you bought a phone doesn't mean you can keep using it if you stop paying your bill.
Just because you paid an enrollment fee does not mean you can keep going to the gym if you stop paying your membership fee.
Buying a satellite dish doesn't mean you keep getting service when you quit paying your bill.
What the devs are doing is saying "Yes, you CAN keep playing if you quit paying your subscription, only you won't get to play everything you could before."
They are giving us an option that is unheard of in ANY other service or business that requires a recurring fee. In all of my above examples, if you stop paying the associated fee you get nothing until you start paying again. That is not only commonplace, but that is the way virtually every recurring fee based service in the world works.
The devs are giving us, for free, part of what formerly cost us $15 a month. And people have the audacity to complain that they lose access to some of it because they stopped paying for it.
It's frigging FREE! Why are you complaining about getting something for free?! That is the part that doesn't make any sense to me.
Something for free is better than nothing for free. It's the simplest math in the world: 1 is more than 0.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
When I read some of the complaints being made and the bizarre logic used to justify them I was reminded of this website.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I get the feeling T Immortalus is the kind of person who would demand that he be given a full meal when he is offered an appetizer for free, and complain when his demand is not met out of some sense that he deserves to have the same thing people are paying for given to him for nothing. The sheer amount of entitlement emanating from him is astounding.
|
http://notalwaysright.com/
I always considered buying the boxed game as buying a convenience. The disk lets you install the game far faster than you could downloading it over the internet. So in a $20 retail box you get 1 month of subscription time equal to approximately $15 and the convenience of installing most of the game (not including updates) from the disk which is way faster than dowloading. So I'm basically paying a $5 charge for a disk that enables me to play in an hour or two rather than in a day or two.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Quote:
Well said. You lay it all out simply and clearly. But I fear the OP is probably impervious to arguments that don't agree with his notion that "I bought this game, I should get to play it forever for no additional cost."|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Buying a box does not give you any more privileges than downloading the game does. You aren't entitled to full access simply because you bought a physical object.
Just because you bought a phone doesn't mean you can keep using it if you stop paying your bill. Just because you paid an enrollment fee does not mean you can keep going to the gym if you stop paying your membership fee. Buying a satellite dish doesn't mean you keep getting service when you quit paying your bill. What the devs are doing is saying "Yes, you CAN keep playing if you quit paying your subscription, only you won't get to play everything you could before." They are giving us an option that is unheard of in ANY other service or business that requires a recurring fee. In all of my above examples, if you stop paying the associated fee you get nothing until you start paying again. That is not only commonplace, but that is the way virtually every recurring fee based service in the world works. The devs are giving us, for free, part of what formerly cost us $15 a month. And people have the audacity to complain that they lose access to some of it because they stopped paying for it. It's frigging FREE! Why are you complaining about getting something for free?! That is the part that doesn't make any sense to me. Something for free is better than nothing for free. It's the simplest math in the world: 1 is more than 0. |
(I do have many games like that. They're all single-player games that do not require an internet connection or access to a service. This is a different kind of game.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Quote:
^this.|
Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold
I always considered buying the boxed game as buying a convenience. The disk lets you install the game far faster than you could downloading it over the internet. So in a $20 retail box you get 1 month of subscription time equal to approximately $15 and the convenience of installing most of the game (not including updates) from the disk which is way faster than dowloading. So I'm basically paying a $5 charge for a disk that enables me to play in an hour or two rather than in a day or two.
|
This is exactly why I have bought every box as it came out - for ease in re-installing the game when a computer wipe has to happen or upon buying a new one.
I have tried to follow the bizarre legal reasoning frorm the OP, without much success. It's not something that would succeed in impressing the professors at the law school I attended....
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
Quote:
O.M.G. Seriously?
|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
That person got a huge settlement for their own stupid mistake, and I'm pretty sure it was actually intentional, especially since nobody could prove the coffee was too hot after it spilled, even a burn on the skin could be faked especially if planned ahead of time.
|
NCSoft, Please reconsider your decision to close down CoH. It has an extremely loyal following and enjoys a great amount of free support from the larger community.
I invite everybody to add the above image to your signature as a petition to reverse NCSoft's decision.
I invite everybody to add the above image to your signature as a petition to reverse NCSoft's decision.
I'm going to be quite Jingoistic here and say '**** the US and that kangaroo court they call a legal system'.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.