I'm sorry, but I say no.

I did decide I want to pull this one statement out and apply a little common sense to it.

Who cares what statistics say? If X number of people come to the game that couldn't afford to before, and spend n<=$15 a month, that's still X*n dollars that the company never would have seen.

If the number of people staying or becoming VIP stays roughly the same, then all of that money is gravy.

Besides, claiming "statistics say" without actually citing the source is downright silly, and probably part of the reason people are ignoring the "literal meaning of your words"

I believe that is kind of where they are hoping the free players come in. A just plays for free, never uses more than his 2 slots and doesn't contribute a cent. B doesn't want to delete his level 50s, so picks up a couple of slots, and a few costume pieces to make the new characters look just right, and wow, the Street Justice powerset looks great, why not pick it up. C realizes this is a really great game, buys a year's subscription.

Smile?

Really? you were able to do that? I tried, but the walls of text and no logical progression from point to point made my eyes glaze over and my head hurt. And I wish I were joking.

The only thing required for them to do with our subscription money, is to keep the servers up and maintain the game as it is. Anything other than that is something they have time to work on because they want us to keep playing.

Well yeah. That's why I wrote the sentence after the one you quoted. I never said I was able to understand it, just telling him what he needs to do for regular human type readers to.

I could not resist quoting this and adding to it.
That is why I have a problem with Freedom.

1) I literally did pay for all base 10 archetypes, including masterminds and controllers, because I bought the first boxes that included them.
If they are going to let us keep what we have purchased then they shouldn't be taking those archetypes away from me and those others who bought the boxes. They have record of serial codes applied to ensure this.

Go ahead Lemur Lad; refute that the first boxes included those archetypes as a feature under the same price. I would like to see the excuse for letting people play the other 8 for free while those who purchased can't play all 10. Not even "performance issues" could be cited as a good enough reason.


2) That was always an issue with the subscription, and remains so for every mandatory subscription game. It's a legal issue.
They sell it like any other game, but require a second purchase to use it. That would be highly illegal price-gouging if not for the free month of play included with the purchase, but it may not be enough.
A) You still pay full ownership price for the box, not just the $15 for the game time. You own it so, legally, you have the right to use it even fi that means offline.
B) That doesn't account for other content which must follow the same rules.
Any expansion or downloadable content does require the initial box purchase(but you wouldn't buy it without that anyway) but it also does not include any minimum amount of time to use it.

I wouldn't be surprised if a game company, even Blizzard, lost the battle over that sticky issue of charging for ownership but requiring "server access fees" before you can use it.

Not even the EULA and ToS and fine print on the box saying "additional online fees apply" can save them from the trouble of selling ownership of a product, like a movie, and not allowing use of it without an additional subscription "rental fee".

The reason they put "server access fees" in the agreement where you must click "yes" to play the game is to allow them to charge you extra for content, despite the fact that the content needs to be usable without those fees otherwise you do not own it and should not be charged for ownership then.

There are only 3 solutions to that which could avoid legal issues.
A) Stop charging for content and let people download the game and all content for free but require a subscription.
B) Stop charging a subscription and rely on content sales to cover operating costs(which works extremely well).
C) Keep charging ownership and subscriptions, but allow players to use the game and all content offline if they choose. Additional players are not guaranteed with any game so they don't have to include any way to play with others, but they could allow LAN play as well to encourage purchases.

Point is, the mandatory subscription, and even the optional one, are problematic. They have to be done right or there are a lot of legal issues that can be brought up.



I am actually thoroughly amazed that nobody has tried to sue Blizzard or any other subscription MMO company because of this.
Don't tell me it's not an issue because of the EULA ToS or whatever document the game company has. Those haven't been tested enough in court and often they won't hold up, which is why the legal team is always trying to update them to cover as many holes as possible. The very act of selling a non-refundable(due to laws) product before making a customer agree to the EULA and ToS that requires a secondary purchase is likely illegal.



3) The very truth that subscriptions do not cover content costs is worrying for subscribers.
That gives them free reign to add content to the store that you have to pay extra for, just like the premium members, and nothing new for your subscription, leaving you with just the exclusives and $5 of points for $15 in cost.

It's very likely that a subscription will be far from worth it when you end up paying $10 more than everyone else for a few exclusives that may not be enough to justify that extra payment.




P.S.
1) Yes, I get more with Freedom by unsubscribing than I do before Freedom, but that is no excuse for taking away certain content(masterminds and controllers) that were included in content I paid to own.
It also does not justify the required payments for content as a subscriber when the subscription should allow use of all content so long as you subscribe, otherwise it looks like a lot of price-gouging of subscribers while the F2P purchasers get more fair treatment.

That is why I do not wish to subscribe, on top of the other reasons mentioned before.
I do not trust them to give subscribers what they pay for fairly under the evident system.

2) I may get more from unsubscribing after Freedom than before, but that doesn't mean before was right or fair or that after is entirely right or fair to subscribers or non-subscribers.

3) I still don't think all that time I paid for and could not use, due to real life things like sleeping and work, was right either. The fact that they treat my account as lesser value than a continuing/new subscriber with Freedom despite all that money I spent and didn't get the full value of(like a prepaid cellphone plan would allow full value usage) does not make me happy. It's not right or fair.

Yes, they have a right to make money, but they should be adding to the game to do so and will be doing that so it is unnecessary and unfair to take away things that were already paid for or paid for in all that wasted value with unused time.

After all, what "server access fees" are necessary when you are not accessing the servers?



Edit:
@Lemur Lad

Search massively.joystiq.com for at least one example of news about a study being done that "only 10% of F2P players spend money".

Even if that is an extreme case. Lots of F2P players, expected under common sense, will not spend anything, especially if they don't see much reason to. Many are probably cheap but many are also just wise in having to justify purchases.

You're just intentionally insulting me there, especially since you can't possibly say that about my post on page 7.
You can't take the moral high-ground by taking the moral low-ground.

If you aren't blindly defending a system then counter the points made with evidence to the contrary or accept them as predictions of the future(in the cases when they are) that are just concerns that I would not like to come to pass and may or may not come to pass.
Just know, when(implied if, as always) these things do come to pass that it will not be good for anyone who subscribes.


Edit 2:
Lots of non-paying players means lower performance for everyone and higher cost for the game. That is why it is a bad thing.
They need to encourage people to pay, not demand it when people have a choice to not pay.
They only hurt their veterans with demands by taking away things or making some things exclusive when they probably shouldn't be or making them pay extra beyond the monthly subscription too much.
They're "right to make money" is really our "right to spend money" when we want to. They need to make us want to spend, not feel obligated yet again. We'll support them if they are fair to us.

They aren't. Premium accounts keep what they've paid for. ATs included. Unless there's been some clarification since the 5-10 times I saw it directly reported from SDCC that that was the case.

See, this is what I mean about you not having a fundamental grasp of certain facts. Cite where you get this information, state your point clearly, and you can be corrected. Stop running so far afield when you're not even fully conversant of the basics.

I'm boggling at this. Are you saying it's not fair that, under the current system, you get nothing if you pay nothing? Seriously?

Wow. I only watch about an hour or two of actual (non-Hulu) cable TV a week. I sure wish Time Warner would reimburse me for all that time I spent sleeping instead. Again, seriously?

Not... exactly. Not entirely everything. Arguing that you bought the archetypes can go either way.

Premium accounts don't have access to MMs or Controllers without purchasing them from the market -- currently $15 each -- or having enough subscription time stored up to unlock them via Paragon Rewards. They unlock at 13 Reward tokens. Pre-Freedom 30-month veterans unlock this automatically (30mo translates into 13 tokens...one per 3 months plus one per year). Alternately, purchasing subscription time is enough to unlock MM/troller - after Freedom launches, each month equals one token and every twelve months adds an additional token.

To the OP: Will you have been playing for 30 or more months when Freedom launches? Well congratulations, you'll have MMs and Controllers automatically and you can stop complaining about it.

Premium accounts also don't have access to HEAT/VEAT, which are VIP only. There is no way around that restriction. They are not available via Paragon Rewards or Paragon Points.
I misspoke - HEAT/VEAT are available on the market for $12.50.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

That's the funniest decision ever. "You know what people will really pay for? Arachnos Soldiers." That's like GM suddenly adding a surcharge for the radio in your new Chevy to receive AM stations.

/em Steps up to the plate, points at outfield.


1. You and I are their sources of revenue now. Premium players will be additional players increasing their sources of revenue when Freedom launches.

2. Premium players are going to pay a lot more for the same things VIP players get as part of their subscriptions, and due to the PP stipend they will also pay a lot more on average even for thing that are ala carte for all players. How much more? This much more:



3. Even if we players voluntarily pay more than our subscriptions under Freedom than now, just like now its still not unfair if we are getting more for our dollar. Booster packs, for example, are not "unfair." Paragon experimented with releasing more content somewhat ala carte, and players were willing to buy it. If we didn't buy all those booster packs when they were released, we wouldn't then be getting all that content for free instead: we just wouldn't be getting it at all.


If I get more game for the same amount of money I used to pay, that's more than fair. The fact that Freedom might have even more than that for me to buy is not unfair, its being like every other store in existence. Even at my salary, there aren't many stores I actually shop at where I can buy out the entire store.

1) Forum tip of the day: Insult others when they accuse you of insulting them. It makes you look so much better. /sarcasm
(Yes, the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated, makes it perfectly fine for me to say that because you asked for it by treating me as such.)

2) http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=268436
Where do Masterminds and Controllers get unlocked? Tier 5? $195 worth or so after Freedom launches? 3 times that before it launches?

I could have sworn that I paid about $50 for City of Villains and about $50 for City of Heroes, and an additional $30 for both with all 3-4 different versions I purchased over the years, which definitely included 5 archetypes each, "tanker, blaster, scrapper, defender AND controller" and "brute, corruptor, stalker, dominator AND mastermind".

They're well beyond $100 spent in the tiers and I don't even get credit for that $100 on the tiers to unlock them.



Tell me where it says I will get my mastermind and controller unlocked simply for owning a boxed copy?
Nowhere?
That seems like a serious oversight that needs correcting.

You aren't paying for the game when you purchase the box. You're paying to have initial access to the game. Think of it as a license you purchase every month (when subscribing) to continue to play the game. Once you let that license expire (by unsubscribing) they can dictate any terms they want for you to get that content back when using Paragon Points or reward medals.

News to me. A friend in the beta told me they are for sale at about $12 of points per archetype.

I'll be seriously pissed if I can't at least pay a one time fee to unlock my existing epic archetype characters, even if per character.

Now I see where your panties got all up in that bunch. You have no idea how the Paragon Rewards system works. And that's not an insult, it's an observation. You really don't.

How many months veteran do you have?

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

Whoops. My knowledge of the market is out of date. They are indeed currently available for 1000 points ($12.50). They didn't used to be available (what means grammar?); they were a VIP perk.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

I can prove you did not pay for access in perpetuity to those ten archetypes by buying the boxed editions. Stop subscribing now, then check to see how many you continue to have access to.

The fact that City of Heroes Freedom will allow *access* to *some* things doesn't mean they have to allow access to *everything*. Today, non-subscribers have access to nothing. In Freedom they will have access to some things. Without unlocking them, that won't include all the archetypes that subscribers have access to, but subscribers themselves will only have access to all the original archetypes because they are, in fact, continuing to subscribe.


You have a highly skewed version of reality. Not even the most hardened opponents of onerous EULAs that I know would agree with you that requiring a subscription to use a service is illegal or unethical. This occurs all the time. You pay to install a satellite television system, but you still have to pay a subscription to use it. If you want to claim that you bought the content of the box (legally, you didn't) and that entitles you to use it without NCSoft's service by, say, writing your own server, you might pick up some libertarian support. But to assert that NCSoft should allow you to access a service that costs them money to provide for free just because you bought a box with a disk in it is way, way, way over the line into extremism.

Neither Blizzard nor any other MMO company is going to lose a lawsuit arguing that they charge for ownership twice, because none of those companies claim they are selling ownership in anything. You don't own the client software you bought, and they never assert you do. The only thing you legally own after buying a boxed edition is basically the box.

Which is why I made the distinction later on that you pay $50 for the box which includes only one month of game time that costs maximum of $15.

Either that is one hell of a price gouge at $35 for the physical materials included or they are charging for the content development and thus ownership of that content in so far as you are allowed to use it, under the same rules that allow users to make copies of their movies for their own private use and can use their movies without an additional fee.


Either they are overcharging or they are charging when they should not be.
Neither is right.

That does not prove it when their right to deny you access to content you paid to own is also in question.
(edit: their right to turn off access to the server is theirs, but not a right to turn off access to the content, that is what is in question)

What does the $35 beyond the $15 for the first month actually cover?
Answer that and you shall see my point.


I bought that content. I have a physical disk. I have the right to use it.


What if I bought a digital copy at $30(or whatever) that included a month of time?
What does the extra $15 cover?

I have the right to use the content that I obviously paid directly for, which is easily proven by the above digital example.



The ONLY reason this still happens is that they have not been tried in court yet to set a precedent that forces companies into a more fair business practice.
I guarantee somebody could sue and either reach a huge settlement that makes the company change the policy, and all others with the same policy, or goes to court and wins.

I even believe it would happen with other companies even after changing their policy due to previous customers being under the problem model.

I would sue if I thought I could get a lawyer to try it with little money and wanted to destroy the company, but I just want them to be better.
I don't want to force them to be more fair. I want them to choose it so I don't have to.

no, I know how it works, but not everyone has enough months.

How many veteran badges does it take to unlock the mastermind and controller?
How many veteran badges does it take to buy the box that definitely includes one of those 2 archetypes as a feature?

there is a discrepancy that needs to be rectified there.

I can see holding them back for those who did not make a box purchase, but anybody who has bought a box paid for those archetypes as part of the original game.

1) They haven't questioned it which is why it hasn't been tried yet. Maybe they haven't thought of it like I have yet or any other reason that prevents them like I have my reasons.

2) Yes, a service fee is fine, but they charge both as a service and a product.

3) I got a free DVR and tuner box with a satellite TV service agreement. I didn't have to buy it first then pay again to use it. If anything, they are both included in an agreement signed before installation, unlike MMO games.

You just gave more credit to my point.

1) I disagree with their option to turn off access to the content I paid an ownership fee for beyond the first month payment of $15.
They charged me more than $15 for the box; they even charged more than $15 for a digital copy.

That is not right in any way to deny content the customer owns even if they can't use it on the company servers.


2) You pay as a service for Hulu, not as a product. You have to sign an agreement before you can pay as well, right?
This game requires no service agreement and we pay for content as well. That is not right.

You also can record things on Hulu when you are unable to watch it, right? You can on satellite TV with a free DVR box with the agreement.

1) But THEY'RE not turning it off: you are.

I already told you how many you need up thread. Then I asked a question. How many veteran months do you have?

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

I don't wan to touch the issue of "we already paid for booster packs which were fine" because they don't include time to use them at all, unlike the box/digital game purchases, and they were made using developer time taken away from improving the game we pay for them to improve it, through both/either box costs and server access fees.


I just can't legally or ethically rectify the cost of content and the cost of server access fees on top of each other.
One doesn't make sense when the other is present unless the latter is optional.