I'm sorry, but I say no.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Only if you want the stuff.

I know that this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp but we don't have to buy everything they put out.

It is ironic how in the rest of the quote you mentioned hypocrisy.
You question my objectivity when all you have done is blindly defend the changes without any genuine knowledge of what is to come. We don't know how quickly the new powersets will show up and we don't know how well our 400 points will keep up pace. Of the two of us, I am the only one who has shown the objectivity to make that assessment.
Blindly saying the 400 points is enough might be showing a good positive attitude but without knowledge of whether or not it is enough, it is the complete lack of objectivity.


I did not quote you in error. I was referring to the inherent hypocrisy in your call for patience and your prior statements in this thread.[/QUOTE]
I have made three posts in this thread, the one you quoted and two others. The prior statements make no contradictory remarks to the need for patience therefore they do not fit any definition of the word "hypocrisy" I suggest if you want to insult your fellow forumites, you stick to the facts - otherwise you just end up looking like a jerk.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

The only way 400 points will not be enough is if you absolutely MUST have everything the very SECOND it is released.

If you are patient, you will eventually get everything you want for free. It will just take a little longer for some of it.

I fail to see how that is not objective. Lemur is just displaying a capacity for patience that is largely lacking in MMO players.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

My point is, if a powerset costs 800 points and we get 400 points a month and they release a new powerset each and every month, we can never have them all without spending more money on it.
I'm not saying that is going to be the case because I, like everyone else have no idea at the pace new content will be added to the store.
What I am saying, is we need to wait and see - blindly saying eventually we can get it all for free if we are patient enough is not necessarily true and should not be advertised as such.

Giving the free PP to Subscribers while they are already getting everything for free isn't a good idea. If that were the case they could just save up those PP and use them to unlock everything for the Premium account and never have to pay again.

Who says everyone is going to WANT everything they release? I have seen nothing other than a couple power sets that I have any interest in acquiring, and at the pace those sets will come out, I will have the points banked to buy them. Street Justice will be released after i21 goes live, and I will have the 800 points for it because there is nothing else I want right now. Titan Weapons will come later, and I'll probably have the points for that as well. And Staff Melee will be coming out eventually.

There is a BUNCH more stuff that I have ZERO interest in. Guess what? I don't HAVE to spend my points on crap I don't want, allowing me to save them for the stuff I DO want.

The only people who are going to want everything the devs release in this fashion are those who must have EVERYTHING, whether they are ever going to use it or not.

Maybe I misspoke. You will eventually be able to get everything you WANT for free, if you are patient enough.

If I want something RIGHT NOW and I don't have the points, I have the option of spending a few bucks to get those points. If I can wait for it, I will do exactly that and not spend the money. Thus far in my almost 6 years playing this game, I have seen NOTHING that I wanted so bad I couldn't wait a while to get it.


Edit: I didn't misspeak. I did in fact say you can have what you WANT for free, with a little patience.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

How long would that take at 400 points a month? With new content coming out each month?

Remember they are subscribed during that time so Paragon are getting $15 a month from them.

Plus if you know that you won't have to buy say Staff Melee, then that X amount of PP EXP boost, looks really tempting to go with your scrapper.

Plus well you can get more than 400PP for $15, by the time the player could save enough PP to access all the content they'd lose by going Freemium, they'd of spent way more than just out right buying PP.

You can say you might be able to buy everything you want for free but that doesn't mean everyone has the same values that you do. With the examples you gave I think the majority of the playerbase are going to want far more than you.
This is a game that has had very little in end-game content for a considerable amount of time. Instead it has managed to sustain purely on the extreme alt-itis of it's playerbase. The average player is going to want to get their hands on each and every powerset the Devs come up with because that is why they are here.

I paid for the things I have and want to keep.
I bought the original game boxes and every game box since that included bonuses and game time. I paid for access to the original 10 non-epic archetypes by buying the boxes. They should be included in those purchases.
Yes, completely free players should not have access to them because they didn't buy a boxed version, but I paid for the content that was included in the boxed games specifically(the basic 10 are on the boxes listed as a feature).

I wonder if they will continue selling boxed games or digital copies that no longer include what they say they do? They probably will see a false advertising case because of this if somebody is sue-happy.


I'm ok with losing epic archetypes, really, because I did not pay directly for them. That's an extra payment I can deal with, even if it is a bit expensive and sucks to have my existing characters taken away.

My main concerns with the invention system lockout until a certain level of spending(or with a sneaky little licence/subscription scam) are that it comes way too late in the reward tiers beyond other things many people have constantly expressed their desire to skip because they suck and that so much other content depends on the system that it would be foolish to lock it away for so long.
Everything beyond the old TO/DO/SO system has something to do with the invention system. You have AE tickets that won't be worth much anymore(when really that should still be good but kill the xp and inf rewards of AE) without invention recipes and salvage to buy. You have merits for TFs/SFs that will also be mostly worthless and no longer be incentive for people to run old content that doesn't see much use. You have alignment merits, which are included with the Going Rogue alignment change system(I better have this system since I own Going Rogue and it is a feature on the box) that pay for recipes almost exclusively.
It's just not wise to do that, especially forcing somebody to either spend a high amount or buy into a pseudo-subscription.

I can see restricting that content some, but not to tier 7 at 27 months of subscription or $405(note 1) of direct payments or any combination of both. That's just plain stupid and greedy and probably insane.


I'm ok with that. I'm not getting new stuff for free, of which there will be a ton of. I still will have more than enough reason to pay more than $15 per month, but it's a choice, "pay or don't enjoy that stuff", that can be put off if finances are not doing so well.

They ARE going to add a boatload of new stuff to the store, so they don't need to restrict us former subscribers from certain things we already have that are so very important(especially not archetypes that were included in box purchases).

F2P makes money off more content. That is how it works. They don't need to take away past content nor should they. They have plenty of room to add more content than we ever had before to the store and end up rich for it.
So, why make your past subscribers(like me having paid over $500 total over the years) feel like their money isn't worth as much to you anymore? Why make their subscribed time worth less than that of a new or continuing subscriber, especially when you have a "subscriber only" tier to entice?
(I also think most subscribers won't reach tier 9, without insane spending on top of the subscription, before the tier 9 VIP items are swapped out, and that is a bad move.)

After further thought, I actually won't have to pay much extra by unsubscribing and going Premium, but subscribers will, eventually if not immediately.

I will always have to pay for things in the store as F2P/Premium, but subscribers have that stipend to soften it a bit.
The only problem with that is the stipend guarantees that they want subscribers to have things to purchase and do so.

I can guarantee that, eventually if not immediately, content release to the store will greatly outstrip the subscriber stipend to the point that even saving will not get you one quarter of the things in the store, while you see less content included with the subscription which you will also lose if you unsubscribe.

Your subscription covers almost everything right now, but, after Freedom, it will cover far less than that.


The "freemium model" is meant to have an optional subscription where subscribers get some exclusives and get most content while they remain subscribed with the stipend for temporary boosts and a bit of content from the store(or unlocks should they choose to let the sub lapse at a point in the future), while the free players pay for everything directly, paying more if they get everything.

The one CoH is using is making both pay much more(eventually for sure) and leaving very little reason to actually subscribe(the exclusives) which may not be important enough to free players to subscribe for. (I can see the grindy Incarnate System, that requires large groups, getting less and less easy to find groups with server transfers of some to the VIP server and others letting their subscription lapse, not to mention the server transfers to spread out to lower population servers where play will be smoother than the servers packed by the influx of free players.)


It seem like, eventually, the subscription(as they will be changing it for Freedom) will just be $15 for access to all old content and some content from the store, a few unnecessary exclusives(if you can play free without them then they are unnecessary, plus people may not put much weight into them for whatever reason such as grind) and $5-6(6 with the extra points for VIPs at a high tier) worth of points, 1 paragon reward token and a signature story arc(which may only be a single mission or 3 given at a time for all we know). (all that per month and only as long as the subscription is maintained.) It will essentially just be the exclusives and point stipend that make subscribing worth it, but even those will likely not be enough to entice or keep subscriptions as the store fills with more requiring extra money.

Maybe you think a subscription for that stuff above, which still requires extra purchases to be made for most new content, is just fine, but, personally, it doesn't look quite worth it to me.
I can tell you it certainly may not be worth enough for those coming here because of F2P who didn't find the subscription worth it before Freedom. They tend to spend less with statistics showing(as best they can) that most F2P players pay little or nothing while 10% of them pay more than the equivalent of $15 per month to varying degrees, while still not subscribing.


It looks like subscribers will be the ones paying extra while free/premium players will pay less overall for the same content as time goes on.

I think that sums up my point pretty well.
Veteran premium players, and free newbies a bit too, are getting a raw deal at first, losing masterminds and controllers that were included with the CoH and CoV boxes(meaning they should keep access to them for buying the boxes) and the invention system that is pivotal to a lot of content, but subscribers will end up with a worse deal if Freedom continues the way it apparently is(encouraging subscribers to spend more than their stipend in the store).

That is why my original, admittedly harsh, post that started this debate.

If you didn't read and try to understand that(guess you won't read this either), including the correct meaning of it, then you have just shot your rebuttal in the foot, so do yourself a favor and reread as objectively as your possible rage(possible because you shouldn't be raging after this post) will let you.



Edit:
I also bought the Architect Entertainment boxed edition of the game, so I can make a case for having full access to that system with my account as well. FYI

Edit 2:
(note 1): 27 months of subscription for newbies after Freedom launches, but 81 months for current veterans at $1215 already spent on the game just to unlock tier 7 benefits of the invention and AH systems. WOW! That's a...lot late in the tiers for your veterans who will not be happy to lose the invention benefits(such as set bonuses and the ability to craft more or drops to sell or ability to sell them). I guess it's only the most veteran who "deserve" that content, and anyone who may not have been able to subscribe earlier and continue subscribing, perhaps because they were too young or didn't know CoH existed because of no advertising from CoH, are left to wait a long long time or spend a LOT.
/shakesheadindismay

I kind of wonder about that, really—the "not trying to save a sinking ship" thing. There seem to be a lot fewer players around now than there were a couple years ago before I let my sub lapse. It tends to be a lot harder to build a team than it used to be on the less-populated servers. I also notice that the subscriber figures for City of Heroes on MMOData haven't been updated since 2009, at which point it was on a definite (if gradual) downward trend and only had about 125,000 subscribers.

How many subscribers are there now? Have the devs said lately? Perhaps the ship has grown leakier than it appears.

When have they ever released a new powerset each month? When have they even (regularly) released a new one every six months? They take time to develop and test. We'll probably get the new powersets strictly with new expansions and issues, because that update cycle allows plenty of time for development and testing. If we get 2 to 3 power sets every six months, then at most that's 1 new set every two months.

I'll agree with you that there's no real way we can tell what the devs are going to do in the future, because past performance is no guarantee of future results. But if they continue the trends they've shown in the past, there's a good chance that most stuff will either be free to subscribers, purchasable with subscribers' bonus Paragon Points, or ceded to subscribers or everyone for free in the long run.

Oh NOES!!

D000000000000000000000M!!!!!

If the devs could crank out a NEW POWERSET each and every month I'd happily pay 1600 points a piece for them.

Hell I'd pay that if they could crank out high quality costume pieces that fast.

The devs have never said anything about how many subscribers we have. That info has always come from the parent company NCSoft itself.

If you want a rough idea of what our subs are at go read their most recent financial report, or use the search tool and read one of the posts where players discussed the topic.

A cruise liner that doesn't get as many passengers as it used to isn't the same thing as a ship going down after it hit an iceberg. The other games I was referring to went to their f2p models usually within 24months of launch, and amid reports of anemic numbers from the get-go. That's the distinction I was making.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I'm not blindly defending what is to come without genuine knowledge of such. I am mercilessly pointing out your attempts to make a point while ignoring key pieces of factual historical information.

It's simple. We've nearly always had to pay for new powersets for a stretch of time before they became free. That's not changing with CoH:Freedom no matter how many times you try to say it is.

That's another point where you're wrong. I've read both your posts. More than once. If you want people to understand the literal meaning of your words, you need to learn to put them together in a much more coherent and concise fashion.

Complexity of thought and language is fine when you have the skills and take the time to convey it, but you haven't. You're making a lot of broad assumptions about the current state of the game, the state of VIP and Premium accounts after Freedom, and the future of the store. If your statements and citations had been even a little more concrete I'd take the time to start correcting them, but you can't blame people for not following what you're trying to say when you write like a tilt-a-whirl.

That's what I am saying. There're only few of most everything that I actually use.