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Originally Posted by Fortress_NA
And that was all the way back on post # 3!
 I do have a couple of querstions: How will Freedom affect expansion packs I've already bought? Presuming I want a majority of what is in a pack, would it be better to get it now, or wait and buy it in the store after Freedom starts? |
Needed to check to see if anyone has responded to your question. What i have seen on beta is that any booster pack you purchased is yours. All the powers and costume pieces I obtained from the ones I bought were still available to me.
As for any you haven't bought my advice would be to decide exactly how much of a particular pack you think you'd actually enjoy and use. If you like everything in a particular pack then buying it now may save you money. When Freedom goes live the packs will be broken down into bits and pieces that can be purchased seperately. The cost for one or two items isn't much but if you bought almost all of a pack as seperate items you'd probably use more points/cash (400 pts = $5) than buying the whole pack now.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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I wanted to respond to you because you seem to have a good attitude about the upcoming switch. Yes if you decide to stop paying there are some things you will lose... At no point in time did NC Soft ever come out and say we are going free to play.. from now on you will get everything you have now at no cost at all. It's a business and suddenly deciding to give everything you make away for free is not a good way to continue to pay the bills and turn a profit. As a Premium play you will retain a good deal of what you used to have based on how long you paid your $15 a month and, like many other so-called F2P games you will have the option to purchase certain things back that you lose. |
Originally Posted by Dark Sweater
I apologise for not having read this entire thread, but I wanted to respond to the OP.
First of all, I understand your frustration. Some things I learned about Freedom with time (disabled IO's in particular) have dampened my enthusiasm. I still think Freedom is nice, I just look at it differently now, more as a way to go back to play new characters with older mechanics (no IO's) than a way to return to my old account. I like the game and as a too-casual player who doesn't feel paying $15 a month is justified I think that any option to play for free is good. I don't know what other games you compare to. Having just read the full forum rules and been reminded not to compare to other games, I'm deleting the comparison I posted and will just say that Freedom is much better than another game gone free to play I tried, and I'm sure other games (some of which I only played as free) have some limitations equally bad or free. BTW I just wanted to say that I think it's good that people are posting about their impressions of Freedom on the public forum. The beta forums aren't visible to non-subscribers, most information about Freedom is kept there, and so outsiders who are interested in Freedom have no way to learn a lot of things. |
Personally I plan to keep my subscription and become a VIP simply because I love the entire game and have no desire to have to buy BACK bits and pieces. Plus since I will get 400 points a month ($5) to buy additional items I didn't buy before (Booster Packs, ect) I see it as only paying $10 to continue to play at the same, or even a better, level.
Now to address the main reason I responded.. Since Beta went to OPEN a while back everyone should be able to access and read all the info on the beta folders here. While it was closed beta only those invited could post to or read them but once it goes to open beta anyone that wants to can hop over and test the new content and post to and read the Beta Forums. If you haven't tried that .. check it out.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Then they clearly have no common sense, or business sense, at all. What NC SOFT is doing is really quite simple|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
So many people are mad that they can't play the game as it is now for free.
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1. Continue to pay us $15 a month and become a VIP. Total access to the game just as you always have had before and bonuses that others won't have unless they decide to subscribe and pay as well. As a reward for your loyalty we will give you back $5 every month in reward points that you can use to buy items in our newly created in game store without having to spend additional cash
2. If you prefer to stop paying us but have been a loyal subscriber for years/months we will designate you a "Premium" player. You will lose some content but can keep playing and can spend money, real money via a credit card, to purchase items in the store and to buy back certain features you lost when you stopped your subscription... THIS is designed to bring back some players that may have left the game due to financial difficulties and to give some that have remained but are struggling financially a way to play again or continue to play
3. If you never played the game before you can now become a F2P player. You will get a very small number of slots and very limited access to the game. You are free to use the in game store to purchase almost anything you see that interests you and try it out. THIS is an extended version of the old 2 week free trial system, which is exactly why they are doing away with that system, and it is designed to lure in new players and hopefully once they see the VETS (VIPs) runing around with a pile of thing they can't enjoy without paying for each one seperately they will decide to subscribe and become VIPs as well.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that no company can exist without turning a profit. Every one of those So-called FREE TO PLAY games they talk about has some in game store where you can go to buy all the stuff you need to do anything more than just dabble a bit. Many give you the basic game BUT if you want to play this QUEST or that CHALLENGE you need to buy (BUY) an expansion pack. I myself tried out a small kingdom building game recently which advertised itself as free. Oh it was to begin with but then I discovered that to get to the next level I needed to improve all my buildings and I either needed to SLOWLY (very slowly) do that one building at a time or go BUY tokens I could use to get to that next level and then next and the next. to top it all off you were in a race against time because other kingdoms could attack and defeat you. Then they'd turn you into a colony and you had to provide them with a certain amount of your acquired wealth and soldiers to aid them in their continued conquests. Of course that meant YOU had less and less to try and improve your kingdom UNLESS you started buying stuff.. YEAH that's really FREE.
The fact is $15 a month, or less if you pay by the quarter or year, is realatively cheap compared to some games that actually SAY they are free. In under 8 years this game is on the verge of its 21st update which works out to better than two new additions a year. It's had two major expansions (COV AND PRAETORIA) that we did have to pay extra for but that compliment the original and now allow us to roam freely between them vastly increasing the size and the content available to all players.
Is it perfect.. No but then no game is which is why they are always tweeking things to get rid of bugs, reduce lag and make things better. NC Soft is a business just like your local grocery store or the gas station down the street. They have bills and salaries to pay and NEED money to do so. Now think about this.. just how long do you think your local grocery store would stay open if they decided to suddenly just start giving away all their food for free! ONE way or another the game needs to generate income to survive. If you enjoy playing it and want it to continue you can either give them $15 a month and be a VIP or spend cash at the store to buy back the items you lost by not subscribing. DID any of you really think it was in any way, shape, or form FAIR for you to get exactly the same amount of game content and pay nothing at all as those of us that continue to subscribe.... Then you are not being very realistic.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
This thread reminds me of back when CoV was going Live, and we were getting all the new villain ATs. There was a small but vocal minority that demanded they get access to them without buying CoV because they were paying their $15/month ( and the monthly sub price was not going up). They felt entitled because the CoV data was being loaded on their computers whether they bought the expansion or not, and since it was there, they should be able to use it. You could not change their minds either...
Kyle Al'Mordu - Lvl 50 MA/SR Scrap
Fusion Force!
TRIUMPH
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Its not that I don't appreciate this particular thought, its that I'm wondering how it could possibly be that this game managed to retain so many people who believe it up to this point. I was really hoping most people who are current subscribers are fine with paying a subscription and open to the idea of getting more for their subscription. It never occurred to me that one of the complaints about Freedom would be that subscribers would have to continue to pay their subscription to retain subscription rights just like they do now.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
That's the thing about subscription that really sucks. You either pay forever or stop paying and lose stuff.
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I'm not worried we might lose these customers when Freedom launches: I'm wondering how we managed to have these customers in the first place.
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I was about to say, "Either your local pizzeria is the pizzeria of the gods or they are ripping you the hell off," but then I remembered that it is, in fact, no longer 1991 outside my head, where the price of a large pizza remains around $8 and comic books are still worth buying. It's hard living with a permanently timeshifted consciousness. |
Originally Posted by zachary_EU
Price of one pizza per month
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Actually I live near a Little Ceasars that has an everyday offer to walk-ins of a large pepperoni or sausage pizza for $5 bucks. While it's not great pizza, every time I've stopped there they are busy trying to keep up with the all the customers.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I was about to say, "Either your local pizzeria is the pizzeria of the gods or they are ripping you the hell off," but then I remembered that it is, in fact, no longer 1991 outside my head, where the price of a large pizza remains around $8 and comic books are still worth buying. It's hard living with a permanently timeshifted consciousness.
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Wow. Aracnaville hit it right on the head. The whole point of City of Heroes going into a hybrid business model (again, the never said free to play) was to give potential new VIPs a broader feel of the game. They built into the system a Premium plan to reach those that like what they see and want a bit more. They never designed this for their current subscriber base to stop paying the monthly, but their are options for those that have financial troubles, etc. Meaning, you no longer lose complete access to the game if you have to stop you sub for a while.
Yes, VIPs may have to pay for a power set here and there, but retaining points may keep that little nitpick at bay. Costumes sets? We've already been doing that. QoL adds? These are not game breaking if you don't buy them. Heck my main tank is my sugar character and she made all her influence playing the game as it is now. And, again, NcSoft has stated they intend to still keep giving to the VIP community. The IDF costumes are very nice and actually blend well with other sets, the time manipulation power set is going to be very popular, and we are getting expanded incarnate and mission content.
The argument shouldn't be, "Why should I be forced to keep paying my subscription?" It should be, "Why aren't you willing to continue supporting this game?" Me, I fully intend to remain a VIP and reap the benefits theren.
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STILL NO ANSWER BTW|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
I think Dark Gob put it best.. "When you go .. can I haz your stuff"
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kthx
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Please note: I've not read the entire thread, so I've probably missed a huge chunk of discussion, but I'd like to point out something.
A lot of people who are saying that we should still get everything for free as part of our subscription are falling afoul of what I term the "Equivalency Fallacy". This false statement of position is beloved of politicians and statisticians, because it let's them claim something is "bad" when it's actually not.
Allow me to explain.
The fallacy (in context) is that historically the proportion of power sets that have been given free to existing subscribers (100%) has always been equal to the absolute quantity of power sets added to the game. Going forward, the proportion of freely granted power sets is reducing. On the basis of the sets we know about, it's reducing to 20%.
Victims of the fallacy view the reduction from 100% to 20% as a reduction in quantity.
However, so far, we have precisely ZERO evidence that the absolute quantity of power sets that will be given for free will be lower than it has been historically.
So if, in previous years, taking some numbers that Arcanaville and I examined a short while ago, we have averaged 4 new power sets per year (and that number REALLY pushes the boat out on the word "free"), and the developers release that same number free to VIPs (and remember, there is ZERO evidence that they will not do this), our absolute number of free power sets remains at the same level as it has in previous years. Our subscription, therefore, is paying for the same quantity as it has done in the past. The other 16 power sets that they release in the same year as Premium sets have not somehow been removed from our subscription. They would simply not exist without the new model, because they have to be paid for somehow.
So, anyone who argues that a reduction in proportion is equivalent to a reduction in absolute numbers is blowing smoke. We do not have enough information to say whether the number of free powersets will remain at historical levels. All we know so far is that the announced sets have a reduction in the proportion that will be free. This is NOT a reduction in quantity. If anyone thinks that it is, I have some interesting statistics involving share prices that you'd LOVE, and will make me (not you) a lot of money.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Waitwaitwait.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
-taking some numbers that Arcanaville and I examined a short while ago-
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Wait.
Shadowe teamed with Aracanaville?
That...that's like pairing Batman and GLaDOS on the awesome scale O_o
*Mind: Blown*
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Whatever you paid for you should be able to keep. That is the trend with other F2P models, so why CoX isn't following that approach I don't understand.
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It was only a one-off mini-series, to discuss a point. Believe me, it's a pleasure to talk to someone who is willing to dig out underlying data rather than reacting to an initial perception.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Waitwaitwait.
Wait. Shadowe teamed with Aracanaville? That...that's like pairing Batman and GLaDOS on the awesome scale O_o *Mind: Blown* |
Not that I'm an Arcanaville partisan, by any means. I just think she plays with cards up her sleeves.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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I agree with you fully Shadowe, but you are also making another common mistake those complaining about having to pay for powersets are making. You are assuming that just because something is Premium that it automatically means you have to spend more than your subscription. |
Originally Posted by Shadowe
The fallacy (in context) is that historically the proportion of power sets that have been given free to existing subscribers (100%) has always been equal to the absolute quantity of power sets added to the game. Going forward, the proportion of freely granted power sets is reducing. On the basis of the sets we know about, it's reducing to 20%.
Victims of the fallacy view the reduction from 100% to 20% as a reduction in quantity. However, so far, we have precisely ZERO evidence that the absolute quantity of power sets that will be given for free will be lower than it has been historically. |
A few posts back in this thread, I made this post which lays out why it is mathematically impossible for someone not to get MORE powersets and other features with their subscription than they have ever received in the past. All without spending a single penny more than their subscription. The only way for them not to receive more is if the developers top releasing any new content at all, premium or otherwise.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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It is apparent you don't understand, since that is exactly the model that Freedom is using. Their approach is almost exactly like one used by another hybrid, dealing with short people carrying around a ring. Right down to the market layout. If I canceled my subscription and went premium, the only thing I would lose is Incarnate abilities and access to new features being introduced with Freedom. Since I have never paid for those things, I would not be losing anything I have paid for.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Whatever you paid for you should be able to keep. That is the trend with other F2P models, so why CoX isn't following that approach I don't understand.
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Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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I was consciously ignoring the cost of Premium powersets, since it is irrelevant to the fallacy: Currently 100% of all powersets are available at no extra cost. After Freedom 20% of new powersets are available at no extra cost (but the absolute number granted in this fashion will (hopefully)remain at approximately the same level), some (or all) of the remaining 80% can be purchased using VIP PPs, and any remaining after that would require money to be spent.|
Originally Posted by Garielle
I agree with you fully Shadowe, but you are also making another common mistake those complaining about having to pay for powersets are making. You are assuming that just because something is Premium that it automatically means you have to spend more than your subscription.
A few posts back in this thread, I made this post which lays out why it is mathematically impossible for someone not to get MORE powersets and other features with their subscription than they have ever received in the past. All without spending a single penny more than their subscription. The only way for them not to receive more is if the developers top releasing any new content at all, premium or otherwise. |
Those who have fallen victim to the Equivalency Fallacy seem to believe that having to use a purchasable currency (but VIPs don't actually have to purchase any of it) to purchase some power sets devalues their subscription in some way that has never been clearly defined.
What they're saying is "I currently get it all, so I should continue to do so in the future", when what they seem to have missed completely is "you currently get it all. In the future you will get no less absolute quantity than you do currently, but if you want MORE, you have to use a purchasable currency to obtain it". They're effectively saying "I do not care if the devs spent five times as much money making new power sets. I should still get them." They do not recognise that any company that increases their output by five times but doesn't charge for it is going to lose a LOT of money. Their argument is "I've always had 100%, I should keep getting 100%", when they don't realise (or don't care) that they're actually saying "I always got 4 per year, I should keep getting 20 per year", but 4 =/= 20 (that's where the word Equivalency comes from, btw). The devs have never promised (as far as I know) that they are going to match our historic experience 100%. They've said that we won't get less (in fact they've said we'll get more), which is an expression of absolute quantity, not proportion.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Some people are doing that, and these people are morons. But there are other people that aren't exactly falling for that, their problem isn't quantity per se they just aren't expressing their opinion consistently clearly, and they aren't asserting its logical conclusion.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
The fallacy (in context) is that historically the proportion of power sets that have been given free to existing subscribers (100%) has always been equal to the absolute quantity of power sets added to the game. Going forward, the proportion of freely granted power sets is reducing. On the basis of the sets we know about, it's reducing to 20%.
Victims of the fallacy view the reduction from 100% to 20% as a reduction in quantity. |
Some people have a specific preference that they can always afford everything. And the logical consequence of that statement is that everyone should get only what that person can afford. In other words, if everyone paid X dollars, that would be tantamount to the devs having enough resources to make Y amount of game. If X is the budget of this particular individual, they are essentially telling the devs to never make more than Y amount of game, so they can always afford it all. They don't want to play a game where different people can afford different amounts of game.
Its a variation of the completist philosophy that says, essentially, everything in the game should be theoretically acquirable by me. If it can't be, it shouldn't be in there. Extended to a subscriber that does not want to pay any more, it says anything you can't get with just your subscription is wrong to add to the game, because it represents things I cannot get in theory.
This completionist attitude is not a right or wrong attitude per se. Its just one that has to be abandoned with City of Heroes Freedom because the Hybrid model being executed all but forbids it. And its not like arguing about the price of server transfers: this basic principle of the game's business model is changing fundamentally to be incompatible with the completionist attitude in a way no level of complaint will be able to reverse.
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So how do you explain this then?|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Whatever you paid for you should be able to keep. That is the trend with other F2P models, so why CoX isn't following that approach I don't understand.
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Originally Posted by Positron
If you purchased GR on an account it will ALWAYS have access to it and its features.
Anything you earned or bought for your account will ALWAYS be available to that account, whether it's VIP or Premium. |
Anything you bought or earned will always be available to your account whether it's VIP or Premium. How is that different from other F2P MMO's?
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Some things just can't be explained |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
So how do you explain this then?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Wow 19 pages of this
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Actually, I thank you for finding that quote. It was one I was staring to think I'd misremembered. Because it seems that what Positron said there is not actually true. The player asking the question is talking about Incarnate powers (which are a feature of Going Rogue, as I recall), and Posi's comment implies that Incarnate powers will remain accessible as a Premium if you bought Going Rogue. Current evidence from Beta seems to contradict that, however, and it appears you will not have Incarnate access as a premium player under any circumstances. I would really appreciate it if the Devs would clarify that apparent contradiction.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
So how do you explain this then?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=780 Anything you bought or earned will always be available to your account whether it's VIP or Premium. How is that different from other F2P MMO's? |
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
Incarnate Powers were not part of Going Rogue. Going Rogue is required to use the Incarnate System. They were originally going to preview the Alpha Slot as part of the GR launch, but ended up pulling it back and opening it up later. They have been quite clear that the Incarnate System is VIP access only under the new Freedom model.
Kyle Al'Mordu - Lvl 50 MA/SR Scrap
Fusion Force!
TRIUMPH
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Going Rogue was Issue 18. The Incarnate content was released with Issue 19. So no one bought Incarnate content. All we bought with Going Rogue was the ability to use the Incarnate System when it finally was released.
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Originally Posted by Quasadu
Actually, I thank you for finding that quote. It was one I was staring to think I'd misremembered. Because it seems that what Positron said there is not actually true. The player asking the question is talking about Incarnate powers (which are a feature of Going Rogue, as I recall), and Posi's comment implies that Incarnate powers will remain accessible as a Premium if you bought Going Rogue. Current evidence from Beta seems to contradict that, however, and it appears you will not have Incarnate access as a premium player under any circumstances. I would really appreciate it if the Devs would clarify that apparent contradiction.
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First, I got the confirmation I was looking for that you don't keep it even if you bought GR: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...56&postcount=5
Which is fine. I just wanted to know.
Because guys, I understand that GR did not, despite original plans, include the Incarnate content. But Positron's comment is in direct response to a question asking "will I keep my Incarnate powers or lose them when I go premium?"
No, Incarnates didn't launch with GR. They still require GR. They are still related to GR. They just came out after launch. And if his comment had been in response to a question about side switching, or Praetoria, or something else I would not think that it implied anything about Incarnates. But it's a direct reply to a question about Incarnates, and nothing else.
The point is moot, since Clockwork O1 responded to my question, which I appreciate. And I'm not going to lose any sleep over his answer (though I might lose some money, heh). But you should be able to see how some of us thought that we would keep that access, based on Posi's comment and were confused and/or disappointed to find out that we don't. And before anyone cries nerdrage or entitlement, I will repeat: I was confused and disappointed to find out. Not enraged. Not flailing about. Just confused and disappointed.
But I'll get over it and pay my monies and have fun anyway.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
I apologise for not having read this entire thread, but I wanted to respond to the OP.
First of all, I understand your frustration. Some things I learned about Freedom with time (disabled IO's in particular) have dampened my enthusiasm. I still think Freedom is nice, I just look at it differently now, more as a way to go back to play new characters with older mechanics (no IO's) than a way to return to my old account. I like the game and as a too-casual player who doesn't feel paying $15 a month is justified I think that any option to play for free is good.
I don't know what other games you compare to. Having just read the full forum rules and been reminded not to compare to other games, I'm deleting the comparison I posted and will just say that Freedom is much better than another game gone free to play I tried, and I'm sure other games (some of which I only played as free) have some limitations equally bad or free.
BTW I just wanted to say that I think it's good that people are posting about their impressions of Freedom on the public forum. The beta forums aren't visible to non-subscribers, most information about Freedom is kept there, and so outsiders who are interested in Freedom have no way to learn a lot of things.