What is the Kheldian surprise?
As well as the starting Kheldian contact have you not tried speaking to the new hero contact too?
Both have the (v) mission marker, and having just made a new PB to test this, yes they both give missions.
As well as the starting Kheldian contact have you not tried speaking to the new standard contact too?
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That's what I said, I didn't check to see if I had other options in my contacts window. I'm currently working and unable to check, so I just thought I'd ask quickly to see if anyone else had.
Are you referring to Microcosm's analysis of the new Light Form? Unless Joe has posted something, those are the only "new numbers" that are coming to mind.... It's irrelevant though because the conversations you're referring to happened before we knew about any of these changes.
As of right now on Live, Light Form cannot be made Perma. Whether it happens to be up at the same time that a Warshade has insufficient buff food is completely circumstantial and it would be pointless to try to calculate those odds. You got angry when people linked you to the PB vs. Warshade performance analysis, insisted that Peacebringers were more survivable even when you were provided with mathematical proof that this was not the case. You also showed a complete lack of understanding of how Warshades even functioned. The whole thing started when you said this: You went into a discussion under the impression that Warshades had lower survivability than Peacebringers, period, and kept that attitude no matter how many people told you it simply was not the case. With these new changes, it's a different story- Your argument has now become true... Discounting Psi damage, Peacebringers will have steadier survivability (exempting the easy-as-anything crash you have to work around.) Although the point that Warshades are reliant on teammates to survive is way off. Anyways if you don't remember the conversation I'm talking about, you can find it here. |
But yes, ever since the new difficulty settings, you can't really say Warshades are better in a team environment. Just one that offers more targets for their AOE-derived buffs, etc. I remember Dechs saying he became more survivable when he dialed up the number of enemies he fought (even if that seems counter-intuitive), which makes sense, given how Warshades work.
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Are you referring to Microcosm's analysis of the new Light Form? Unless Joe has posted something, those are the only "new numbers" that are coming to mind.... It's irrelevant though because the conversations you're referring to happened before we knew about any of these changes.
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P.S. SO's make it very nearly cap too, the only real difference is that IO's can let you keep it perma. If you are not keeping it perma because you are on SO's, you should be taking the toggle shields too, in which case wanting lightform to cap resistance by itself when you could have it cap with the shields you already have instead and give you psi resistance is just silly.
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Not overpowered, at least that's not what -I'm- saying. I'm saying -Wasted- power. Makes the shields and/or Dwarf form redundant, which is a shame.
Lightform would be fine as is, if the rest of the set was jiggled around it. Maybe the shields or Dwarf gave some defence, for example.
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
I don't think it's true now on Beta that Peacebringers have better survivability, either. They have steadier, more reliable performance you could say (since their buffs can remain the same), but Warshades can go higher than they can. Their superior mez capabilities also helps things.
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"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Resist-centric survivability - especially without high, broad-spectrucm debuff resistance (-def, -rech, -end/recovery at least) - just isn't very impressive. A def softcapped character can handle much more in practice than a res-hardcapped character, other things being equal. And a def softcapped character with aid self and no mitigation out of their primary will survive circles around a res-hardcapped PB, even though the PB has better selfhealing, pulsar, and a dull pain type power.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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Aren't you really limiting the focus of the discussion too much with that? Sure, in a perfect world, the two Kheldian types would be balanced on a razor's edge with eachother... but way before we get there they need to be closer to the ballpark of the rest of the ATs.
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No it was just a specific point that I was referring to. I'm not saying it's the only thing that is allowed to be discussed.
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
I've built up a good amount of defense on my Warshade (and plan to do the same on my Peacebringer) through set bonuses. Having less than softcapped defenses still makes for amazing survivability when paired with hardcapped resists. My Warshade has outlived Stone Tanks and used them for Vengeance. He's done the same with an FA Brute... On a Fire Farm.
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Are you referring to Microcosm's analysis of the new Light Form? Unless Joe has posted something, those are the only "new numbers" that are coming to mind.... It's irrelevant though because the conversations you're referring to happened before we knew about any of these changes.
As of right now on Live, Light Form cannot be made Perma. Whether it happens to be up at the same time that a Warshade has insufficient buff food is completely circumstantial and it would be pointless to try to calculate those odds. You got angry when people linked you to the PB vs. Warshade performance analysis, insisted that Peacebringers were more survivable even when you were provided with mathematical proof that this was not the case. You also showed a complete lack of understanding of how Warshades even functioned. The whole thing started when you said this: You went into a discussion under the impression that Warshades had lower survivability than Peacebringers, period, and kept that attitude no matter how many people told you it simply was not the case. With these new changes, it's a different story- Your argument has now become true... Discounting Psi damage, Peacebringers will have steadier survivability (exempting the easy-as-anything crash you have to work around.) Although the point that Warshades are reliant on teammates to survive is way off. Anyways if you don't remember the conversation I'm talking about, you can find it here. |
I don't get angry with people online even when they are rude as that's just a waste of energy. My point was more that the numbers don't tell the whole story and most of the players I encounter who play warshades have a harder time of staying alive than the peacebringers I encounter or that I do when playing mine.
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And I'll quote the response I gave the first time you said that:
Or maybe you're making generalizations about an entire archetype you've evidently never played based on your limited experience encountering people who were doing it wrong.
That would be like me saying "Blasters do less damage than defenders" because I was once teamed with a blaster on a trial account trying to figure out how brawl worked while the defender on our team was killing stuff. |
Instead of bothering to respond to it again in the same fashion, just go back to the thread and see how that worked out for you the first time so we can stop talking about this.
hey ya'll i just wanted to say
buff peacebringers they're still a joke
ok thanks
p.s. the new light form is great and all but the crash sucks and also more importantly everything else about peacebringers still sucks
Mostly I was just joking about how nobody ever seems satisfied with Kheldians while I'm a little in awe of how much the Devs have improved them since I started playing one about 4 years ago. |
ws and pb are not the same..
one is good for lots of targets.. one is good for single harder targets.. end of story.. we got a buff.. and a good one at that.. without the devs taking something away.. jeesh..
or have you guys forgoten i13 when they fixed the perma dom prob but nerfed everything else in pvp..
usually when the devs give buffs they take something away to compensate.. ..
a buff with no consequences = great..
and later other issues maybe we can see more changes.. but for now yeh.. just cool out .. grab a beer and just enjoy..
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kheldians are never happy.. we got a freaking buff...
ws and pb are not the same.. one is good for lots of targets.. one is good for single harder targets.. end of story.. we got a buff.. and a good one at that.. without the devs taking something away.. jeesh.. or have you guys forgoten i13 when they fixed the perma dom prob but nerfed everything else in pvp.. usually when the devs give buffs they take something away to compensate.. .. a buff with no consequences = great.. and later other issues maybe we can see more changes.. but for now yeh.. just cool out .. grab a beer and just enjoy.. |
Yeah, they buffed us...but we're by no means "fixed" yet. I'm not trying to be ungrateful here, I'm just trying to make sure they don't call it "done" for another 3 to 4 years. We shouldn't settle for what we've got so far, because its a job not finished yet. Not only that, but its a buff that's caused other problems to crop up.
So am I glad we got a buff? Definitely, thank you Arbiter Hawk. Just don't run off yet, we've got other problems that could still use some attention. You might also talk to us a little more so we can all be on the same page for this. Also would let us know you ARE still keeping an eye on us...so...yeah...talk to us please.
seriously are we back at the point of discussion where we're going "no ya'll it's ok!! just be happy we got ANY buffs it's ok, stop asking for things!"
the light form discussion is great, but the constant derails of "hush up you fool, what if they nerf x!!", or "stop complaining or else they'll never buff us!" does nothing for the discussion and contributes nothing for the devs to read other than i guess something for a good laugh (shoutouts to the folks going "ugh peacebringers too good, NERF PEACEBRINGERS" in this thread..)
to make it clear, again:
the buffs are good.
obviously.
but they don't address the issues peacebringers have.
they bring the pure numbers up without doing anything about the problems with peacebringers, whether it's the knockback, the severe underperformance of the forms, or the overall lack of damage and utility of peacebringers in comparison to the archetypes that they're supposed to be imitating.
tell me what role other than "space filler/damage filler" that a peacebringer occupies even with these new buffs.
a tank? the crash on light form makes it so consistent tanking isn't achievable without severe workarounds and even then the ability to tank requires high-end slotting in the first place.
a scrapper, blaster, or blapper? the damage output isn't comparable in the slightest when working on even levels.
the categories peacebringers fall under in the new power selection screen are ranged damage and tanking. they don't do any of these effectively. in fact i'm pretty sure these placements are based entirely on the existence of the now mostly worthless forms (in terms of hassle and effectiveness vs. staying in humanform) so that's pretty funny in it's own right too.
the discussion on how peacebringers should be improved always ends up centering itself around "peacebringers vs. warshades", when it really should be "peacebringers vs. the respective archetypes they are imitating".
so far from this thread once that line gets brought up, it always ends up stalling the discussion with pissing contests of "but oh no you see, peacebringers are actually better at X than warshades!" when that shouldn't even be the primary concern or focus of the discussion.
it would help a lot if the devs posted what they expect peacebringers to function as, and how they fulfill that role. otherwise we end up running into the wall of playstyle differences when it comes to suggesting improvements.
Little, hypothetical question for the thread.
A new player comes up to you. They're interested in buying access to Peacebringers and/or Warshades in the Store, and want to know if you think it's worth it.
Would you advise them to spend their money on unlocking Peacebringers and/or Warshades?
If this question were about Controllers, or Masterminds I would say yes, no question. Warshades and VEATs, I don't have enough experience on, but I wouldn't advise against it.
Peacebringers... I don't know. I wouldn't want to say "don't bother," I like my PB, but any answer I give would have to be heavily qualified.
"The Hamidon is a what what of what?" - Brian the mission guy.
kheldians are never happy.. we got a freaking buff...
ws and pb are not the same.. one is good for lots of targets.. one is good for single harder targets.. end of story.. we got a buff.. and a good one at that.. without the devs taking something away.. jeesh.. or have you guys forgoten i13 when they fixed the perma dom prob but nerfed everything else in pvp.. usually when the devs give buffs they take something away to compensate.. .. a buff with no consequences = great.. and later other issues maybe we can see more changes.. but for now yeh.. just cool out .. grab a beer and just enjoy.. |
And we DID lose something. There were those of us who liked light form in its former incarnation - not only because of the costume shift. We lost the duration and probably the most unique animation in the game, but more importantly (IMO) they removed the ability to attack on the run. It was one of the best things about Light Form, and I will miss it even more than the costume swap. When my team needed a damage dealer who couldn't be killed, Light Form delivered. Well, unless there were Dark Ring Mistresses, Master Illusionists, Rikti Magi, Tarantula Queens... wait, what was I saying? Oh, right: Light Form delivered. I could count on it for several spawns, or a double or even triple aggro. Now? I'm jumping out and healing before we're halfway through the crisis, and -most importantly - I have nowhere near the combat mobility that I had before.
My problem with the duration will be fixed once I've adjusted my build to make it perma, but I will always miss the non-rooting attacks that Arbiter Hawk called a bug. (which makes me wonder if Light Form would have been changed at all were they not fixing yet another bug that benefited Kheldians).
Some of us liked the footstomp animations - the cool stomp animations (and the cool light form shift) were what made me choose peacebringers in the beginning. Personally I never gave a damn that you couldn't use them from the air. How hard was it to turn off flight or lead out with a punch after the dwarf teleported? IMO we lost out there, too.
The game's not ALL about numbers, ya know.
But what did we get in return that we really wanted? A mediocre buff to our damage that gave us a whopping 16 dps over what we already did, and a shortened recharge to Photon Seekers..
But I'm sure the changes are all that and a bag of chips for someone who pvp's on a human-form Peacebringer.
And if we're trying to push more through now, it's probably due to Hawk's statement that "we're pretty happy with where Peacebringers are sitting now."
In other words, they're DONE making changes to Peacebringers. The changes we have are what we're going to have on live, and I'm betting it's going to be a very long time - if ever - before anything further is done.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I think the comparison to Warshades is simply to show how far behind Peacebringers are, but that's a good point. I think I implied it earlier in this thread, but I care far less that PB's and WS's be equal than wanting PB's to fill a role - any role - well. To be a Jack of All Trades, then one would not expect a PB to be better than another AT at what that AT does, but then it must be significantly better at some other role that makes the PB worth having around.
I've always looked at PB's human form as the AT Blapper fans should love to play. They have great melee skills with some ranged attacks and better survivability than a Blapper.
But, the melee comes with knockback and the ranged damage is poor. Now, with the newer mobs out there, Resistance based defense also seems less valuable. ***
If a PB's supposed to tank than at least Rhino needs to be able to survive tanking AND do a better job of agro management. Perhaps make the Rhino Defense themed to add to the Resist it's getting from the inherent, etc (instead of just more resist) + Punch-Voke or an agro aura. Even if the damage remains poor (Rhino should not out-shine tanks), at least it's a function the Rhino could do well enough to make getting that form worth while and actually useful to teams.
If a PB's human form is supposed to Blap, then it needs to do decent damage compared to scrappers and blasters. Again, I understand and agree that a "jack of all Trades" should not out-shine true tradesmen, but it's damage out needs to at least be in the same league.
If the PB's supposed to be an offender, than it needs to be able to apply some heals (or debuffs) and some crowd control. Pulsar and Glowing Touch don't cut it.
My Invulnerability / Super Strength / Pyre Mastery Tank is three times better at every facet of game play than my PB is.
Now, I think the changes made will help close that gap considerably in all avenues except survivability and agro management - so that's great - but it still leaves the PB without a role. Matching a tank in damage is not a "wow" factor unless it does something else - crowd control, healing, debuffing, agro management - anything. The PB's still do not do any of these things competently.
(***I don't have numbers to prove that, just impressions. Praetorian Clocks shred resistance based armor as do most level 50+ AV's, new and old. I used to be able to stand up to Lord Recluse in the STF with my invuln tank all day long with a little assistance from a healer. Now that I am uber-Incarnate with extra armor, I/O's, etc - he two shots me.)
EDIT: I will miss old lightform, too. It was the one facet of my PB that helped me prove I was valuable to teams. When some poor fool runs into a room and agros all 5 groups, I could pop Lightform and run around like a screaming idiot dropping mobs left and right while the rest of the team died. The fact that Lightform didn't root meant I could position myself for the follow up attack before the mobs landed from my KB or I could move on to the next target knowing my still-animating Incandescent Strike was going to finish the job on the other side of the room. It made for some wild, fun combat that entertained the PC's while their toons lay dead until I could give them enough breathing space to pop a wakie. Those instances were the only times I really felt like I was contributing more than a scrapper or blaster who might have filled my slot otherwise.
So am I glad we got a buff? Definitely, thank you Arbiter Hawk. Just don't run off yet, we've got other problems that could still use some attention. You might also talk to us a little more so we can all be on the same page for this. Also would let us know you ARE still keeping an eye on us...so...yeah...talk to us please.
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None of us are, TBH. But it's damned discouraging to see our favorite archetype being made better at what it was already good at at the expense of the changes it really needed.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
the categories peacebringers fall under in the new power selection screen are ranged damage and tanking. they don't do any of these effectively. in fact i'm pretty sure these placements are based entirely on the existence of the now mostly worthless forms (in terms of hassle and effectiveness vs. staying in humanform) so that's pretty funny in it's own right too.
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Sadly, I think those question marks are there because they knew we'd be up in tentacles about what the actual numbers would have been.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Little, hypothetical question for the thread.
A new player comes up to you. They're interested in buying access to Peacebringers and/or Warshades in the Store, and want to know if you think it's worth it. Would you advise them to spend their money on unlocking Peacebringers and/or Warshades? If this question were about Controllers, or Masterminds I would say yes, no question. Warshades and VEATs, I don't have enough experience on, but I wouldn't advise against it. Peacebringers... I don't know. I wouldn't want to say "don't bother," I like my PB, but any answer I give would have to be heavily qualified. |
warshades need IO slotting to be really good instead of middling, and peacebringers need IO slotting to be middling instead of a horrible joke.
i'm sure this will eventually happen: a person who just on a whim decides to unlock one of the epic archetypes, and is trying to decide between a soldier or a peacebringer.. and ends up picking the peacebringer
boy i'mma feel sorry for that dude.
yeah i actually originally typed out "melee damage" but then i realized peacebringers aren't in the melee damage section. yep..
Shifting gears for a moment, I wanted to ask something. Are Kheldians not allowed to partake in the new tutorial or do any of the new low level arcs?
I just made a new Warshade on Beta because I was curious about where Shadowstar was (My Warshade is a Villain) and I didn't get sent through the tutorial. I might have not been paying attention and clicked a skip button, but I don't think I did.
Assuming I didn't just goof up, is the assumption that the tutorial and the new arcs are designed to teach people how to play the game, and since Kheldians are gated AT's it's assumed that people who have access to them already know how to play the game?
If that's the case, I would hate to be a returning player who decides to come back as full VIP because of all the new goodies, rolls up a new Kheldian, and misses out on all the new low level content (and training for using some of the new features that this content provides.)
Again, this is all assuming I didn't click a wrong button somewhere in the beginning. I didn't check to see if I had another contact besides Shadowstar either, but I don't think I did. You would think Kheldians would have gotten a direct low level arc tie-in anywho... Heck, those Shivans who destroyed Shadowstar's hangout spot also used to strap us to ships and use us as fuel. We have a bit of a vested interest in the situation, Yknow?