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The only reason for comparing Peacebringers to Warshades is that balancing a shapeshifting archetype is so difficult that it's easier to make suggestions in the context of another shapeshifting archetype.|
Originally Posted by CarminaGadelica
I think the comparison to Warshades is simply to show how far behind Peacebringers are, but that's a good point. I think I implied it earlier in this thread, but I care far less that PB's and WS's be equal than wanting PB's to fill a role - any role - well. To be a Jack of All Trades, then one would not expect a PB to be better than another AT at what that AT does, but then it must be significantly better at some other role that makes the PB worth having around.
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With Warshades, they got it right. No one wants to turn Peacebringers into Warshades by any stretch (although you could have fooled me with the changes in beta) but so long as it's done in the context of asking for comparable levels of performance in what Peacebringers currently do then I don't see anything wrong with it.
For example, asking that Peacebringers be able to stack stuns on entire spawns to the level that Warshades can isn't necessarily going to get you anywhere, but asking for comparable levels of team support might be more in line with what Peacebringers can contribute and still be distinct.
But that's just an example. The point is that there is nothing wrong with using a measuring stick.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I agree. I wanted to bring other AT's into the discussion, for a couple of reasons. I think we all want the PB's to be their own AT and to be not only competent, but also valued as team mates - and certainly not functionally equivalent to Warshades.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
The only reason for comparing Peacebringers to Warshades is that balancing a shapeshifting archetype is so difficult that it's easier to make suggestions in the context of another shapeshifting archetype.
With Warshades, they got it right. No one wants to turn Peacebringers into Warshades by any stretch (although you could have fooled me with the changes in beta) but so long as it's done in the context of asking for comparable levels of performance in what Peacebringers currently do then I don't see anything wrong with it. For example, asking that Peacebringers be able to stack stuns on entire spawns to the level that Warshades can isn't necessarily going to get you anywhere, but asking for comparable levels of team support might be more in line with what Peacebringers can contribute and still be distinct. But that's just an example. The point is that there is nothing wrong with using a measuring stick. |
The WS is a natural comparison as it is also a HEAT, and it does its role well. We'd all love our PB's to do so well.
The only thing I would fear is that any further developments would push PB's to be even closer to WS's in how they operate (I liked old Lightform better than new - it now operates more like a WS power, but it is not something that needed to change :/)
I also fear that if the community appears to be complaining about the disparity between WS's and PB's, it will result in a WS nerf rather than a PB improvement when what we really want is to raise the abilities of a PB to be comparable to all AT's, not just WS's. I believe the consensus is PB's lag behind all AT's - not that WS's excel. This needs to be stressed because the devs have said they are happy with PB's now. If they are happy with PB's and we are complaining about them relative to WS's, what will the devs look at to close that gap?
Controllers = Yes. Lots of options and combos
MMs, VEATs and WS= Maybe. MMs are love it or hate it and have issues in Speed TFs, WS and VEATs are limited number of options and don't give lots of combos
PB = NO! If someone paid I would lol.
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Originally Posted by Leese
Little, hypothetical question for the thread.
A new player comes up to you. They're interested in buying access to Peacebringers and/or Warshades in the Store, and want to know if you think it's worth it. Would you advise them to spend their money on unlocking Peacebringers and/or Warshades? If this question were about Controllers, or Masterminds I would say yes, no question. Warshades and VEATs, I don't have enough experience on, but I wouldn't advise against it. Peacebringers... I don't know. I wouldn't want to say "don't bother," I like my PB, but any answer I give would have to be heavily qualified. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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I would explain that Warshades and Peacebringers are much more complex than any other AT in the game, and that it would probably require more monetary investment via the Invention System to get them to shine to their full potential (But I would say the second part to ANYONE about ANY character) but if they were willing to read guides and didn't mind adapting to the learning curb, Kheldians could do amazing things.
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Originally Posted by Leese
Little, hypothetical question for the thread.
A new player comes up to you. They're interested in buying access to Peacebringers and/or Warshades in the Store, and want to know if you think it's worth it. Would you advise them to spend their money on unlocking Peacebringers and/or Warshades? If this question were about Controllers, or Masterminds I would say yes, no question. Warshades and VEATs, I don't have enough experience on, but I wouldn't advise against it. Peacebringers... I don't know. I wouldn't want to say "don't bother," I like my PB, but any answer I give would have to be heavily qualified. |
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It worked out for me quite well. Thanks. I wasn't interested in winning the argument against people who don't seem to know how to be polite whilst debating something. But I did get my point across to those inclined to hear it and found I wasn't alone in considering Peacebringers very survivable as is, just needing to do more damage in White Dwarf and maybe Nova.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
And I'll quote the response I gave the first time you said that:
Instead of bothering to respond to it again in the same fashion, just go back to the thread and see how that worked out for you the first time so we can stop talking about this. |
That said, while I could be disappointed because we lost our 3 minutes of god-likednees or that we now get rooted more, etc., I instead choose to focus on the positives of having more resistance in Nova and better mezz protection and the other things we've gained like being able to do SF in the air, which I enjoy immensely.
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You realize that we didn't lose anything, you just now have the potential for those 3 minutes of capped resists with proper slotting to be permanent? If by rooted more you mean rooted less, than sure. That perma 'godliness' now carries over to forms if you so choose to take them. Absolutely nothing was taken away from Peacebringers except for a costume-wrecking animation and some ungodly recharge times.
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Originally Posted by Irresponsible
It worked out for me quite well. Thanks. I wasn't interested in winning the argument against people who don't seem to know how to be polite whilst debating something. But I did get my point across to those inclined to hear it and found I wasn't alone in considering Peacebringers very survivable as is, just needing to do more damage in White Dwarf and maybe Nova.
That said, while I could be disappointed because we lost our 3 minutes of god-likednees or that we now get rooted more, etc., I instead choose to focus on the positives of having more resistance in Nova and better mezz protection and the other things we've gained like being able to do SF in the air, which I enjoy immensely. |
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Sure feels like I'm being rooted more on beta than I ever was on live. Activating LF roots you now when it didn't before anyway, right?|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
If by rooted more you mean rooted less, than sure.
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As for being able to get to perma LF with IO sets, what about new players who don't have the money for that? Things are supposed to be balanced around SOs unless the Devs have changed their minds?
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Pretty much this. It's like buying a nerf. I probably wouldn't lol, but I'd certainly give that poor sod a pat in the back. Peacebringers on SOs? Pass.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Controllers = Yes. Lots of options and combos
MMs, VEATs and WS= Maybe. MMs are love it or hate it and have issues in Speed TFs, WS and VEATs are limited number of options and don't give lots of combos PB = NO! If someone paid I would lol. |
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Originally Posted by Irresponsible
Sure feels like I'm being rooted more on beta than I ever was on live. Activating LF roots you now when it didn't before anyway, right?
As for being able to get to perma LF with IO sets, what about new players who don't have the money for that? Things are supposed to be balanced around SOs unless the Devs have changed their minds? |
Are you seriously going to complain about not being able to move for a few seconds in exchange for the ability to PERMA LIGHTFORM? If so... I suggest you just get out right now.
edit: Even if a player couldn't afford to Perma LF, it's still going to be up a hell of a lot more often than it was before.
New players don't have the option to Perma Eclipse either. That's a retarded argument. By your standards, Perma Phantom Army isn't a big deal either, because it actually takes time and inf. to achieve.... Right.....
I sometimes wonder what kind of things people are playing. I'm mostly a soloer, and usually I don't push the difficulty settings too high = +1/x2 at most. I don't often have real problems with my peacebringer, although she's certainly a nailbiting thing to play. Really, the thing I hate is the total lack of mez protection outside lightform or dwarf, which means I tend to spend time inbetween missions filling my tray up with breakfrees.
Right now I think the biggest 'buff' Kheldians need is to remove Quantum, Void Hunter, and cyst spawns and leave those for the Kheldian-specific arcs. 
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I just wanted to draw attention to the bolded part of your response...|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
We got a buff - and it's a good buff - but we got the wrong buff. We didn't have much of a problem with survivability before this change, and the new light form isn't better - it's just different. Peacebringers never needed it to be "permable" to be counted as one of the most durable archetypes in the game, and quite frankly I'm not terribly happy with the shortened duration.
And we DID lose something. There were those of us who liked light form in its former incarnation - not only because of the costume shift. We lost the duration and probably the most unique animation in the game, but more importantly (IMO) they removed the ability to attack on the run. It was one of the best things about Light Form, and I will miss it even more than the costume swap. When my team needed a damage dealer who couldn't be killed, Light Form delivered. Well, unless there were Dark Ring Mistresses, Master Illusionists, Rikti Magi, Tarantula Queens... wait, what was I saying? Oh, right: Light Form delivered. I could count on it for several spawns, or a double or even triple aggro. Now? I'm jumping out and healing before we're halfway through the crisis, and -most importantly - I have nowhere near the combat mobility that I had before. My problem with the duration will be fixed once I've adjusted my build to make it perma, but I will always miss the non-rooting attacks that Arbiter Hawk called a bug. (which makes me wonder if Light Form would have been changed at all were they not fixing yet another bug that benefited Kheldians). Some of us liked the footstomp animations - the cool stomp animations (and the cool light form shift) were what made me choose peacebringers in the beginning. Personally I never gave a damn that you couldn't use them from the air. How hard was it to turn off flight or lead out with a punch after the dwarf teleported? IMO we lost out there, too. The game's not ALL about numbers, ya know. But what did we get in return that we really wanted? A mediocre buff to our damage that gave us a whopping 16 dps over what we already did, and a shortened recharge to Photon Seekers.. But I'm sure the changes are all that and a bag of chips for someone who pvp's on a human-form Peacebringer. And if we're trying to push more through now, it's probably due to Hawk's statement that "we're pretty happy with where Peacebringers are sitting now." In other words, they're DONE making changes to Peacebringers. The changes we have are what we're going to have on live, and I'm betting it's going to be a very long time - if ever - before anything further is done. |
I PVP plenty on my humandform PB and would like to point out I agree with everything you said about the lightform changes not being better but different in PVE and the same applies to PVP.
The old light form had the benefit of giving a PB a constant stream of damage (mediocre damage but constant) in PVP because of the no-root. Now IF we can make the new light form perma in PVP (thanks to DR on recharge) we'll most likely have to make sacrifices elsewhere for what will be about 5-7% additional resistance (depending on build) while in the new lightform. That's "great" and all but I'd rather have the no-root since the build up buff is negligible.
I'd have prefered they left lightform as it was and given PBs a straight damage increase (which is what a lot of people have been posting for PVE changes.)
Bottom line I think you'll find most PVP humanform PBs will agree the changes are not in fact "...all that and a bag of chips for someone who pvp's on a human-form Peacebringer."
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You're probably hitting on the issue of why Kheldians haven't seen changes for years now. They're not so bad that they can't play the game at the minimal settings (which I do point out to people are still the default to get through the game... anything higher is gravy). The problem is that their performance (and this being mainly Peacebringers) is so far behind other ATs, and how their powers do not mesh together as well as they should (shields given to an AT that shapeshifts, among many others), or as smoothly as they should (long shapeshifting time, along with shorter build up style powers, etc.).|
Originally Posted by AliasiSudonomo
I sometimes wonder what kind of things people are playing. I'm mostly a soloer, and usually I don't push the difficulty settings too high = +1/x2 at most. I don't often have real problems with my peacebringer, although she's certainly a nailbiting thing to play. Really, the thing I hate is the total lack of mez protection outside lightform or dwarf, which means I tend to spend time inbetween missions filling my tray up with breakfrees.
Right now I think the biggest 'buff' Kheldians need is to remove Quantum, Void Hunter, and cyst spawns and leave those for the Kheldian-specific arcs. |
The changes on Test were very much needed to get us more in line with where we should be, but as I and others have pointed out, they are not enough to fix the issues noted in my paragraph above. I don't expect Kheldians to be the #1 top AT (and there is no real one, to be honest. There are people who hate Scrappers, even though they work quite well). I just want them to work well, and have equivalent enough performance to what other ATs can do. We are not there yet, though we are closer, thanks to what has been adjusted thus far.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I've been soloing some of the harder arcs on the beta server with a PB at +1/x3 with Bosses and that's without a fully IO'd build or any Incarnates slotted except the basic Alpha and it's been relatively easy. That's a welcome improvement from what I can manage on live right now. Is it crazy to extrapolate that with a maxed out build that Peacebringers might be able to manage something like +2/x4 or even x6 solo or even higher? I doubt will be able to ever do +4/x8 solo like Warshades but it would be nice to close the gap some.
It is a trade-off and requires an adjustment in play style but I so love most of the changes including having LF work in Nova and the new Dwarf shift not being interrrupted that I'm still very excited.
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Originally Posted by Tabcef
i'd tell them to unlock a soldier or fortunata since those two don't require extreme IO slotting (which they won't have access to as a free/premium player) to be effective.
warshades need IO slotting to be really good instead of middling, and peacebringers need IO slotting to be middling instead of a horrible joke. i'm sure this will eventually happen: a person who just on a whim decides to unlock one of the epic archetypes, and is trying to decide between a soldier or a peacebringer.. and ends up picking the peacebringer boy i'mma feel sorry for that dude. |
This pretty much sums it up for me.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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Originally Posted by Irresponsible
I've been soloing some of the harder arcs on the beta server with a PB at +1/x3 with Bosses and that's without a fully IO'd build or any Incarnates slotted except the basic Alpha and it's been relatively easy. That's a welcome improvement from what I can manage on live right now. Is it crazy to extrapolate that with a maxed out build that Peacebringers might be able to manage something like +2/x4 or even x6 solo or even higher? I doubt will be able to ever do +4/x8 solo like Warshades but it would be nice to close the gap some.
It is a trade-off and requires an adjustment in play style but I so love most of the changes including having LF work in Nova and the new Dwarf shift not being interrrupted that I'm still very excited. |
My friend AIB's Tri Form Peacebringer, Serene Servant, does incredible things on live already. I'm not sure as to the exact (+/-) setting that he's able to handle on his own, but I want to say it's up to 53x8 depending on the enemy group. Granted, that shouldn't be considered a standard at all in my opinion but more of an anomaly. These changes we'll be seeing with issue 21 should definitely help doing amazing things with Peacebringers be more common, ("common") but that's not to say I think that an increased overall potential is enough to be gap closing, in terms of their relative performance to Warshades. Survivability will be more consistent (barring psi damage... I refuse to deem the crash a threat) but will be severely lacking in damage (though they can cap HP in Human Form, which Warshades can't do.)
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Pics or it didn't happen! But this just proves my point that there was nothing wrong with PBs that couldn't be fixed if we all just learned to play more better |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
My friend AIB's Tri Form Peacebringer, Serene Servant, does incredible things on live already. I'm not sure as to the exact (+/-) setting that he's able to handle on his own, but I want to say it's up to 53x8 depending on the enemy group. Granted, that shouldn't be considered a standard at all in my opinion but more of an anomaly. These changes we'll be seeing with issue 21 should definitely help doing amazing things with Peacebringers be more common, ("common") but that's not to say I think that an increased overall potential is enough to be gap closing, in terms of their relative performance to Warshades. Survivability will be more consistent (barring psi damage... I refuse to deem the crash a threat) but will be severely lacking in damage (though they can cap HP in Human Form, which Warshades can't do.)
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I went and pushed the difficulty slider up to +2/x4 with bosses and it's a little more difficult for my decidedly average PB build but still doable against even hard mobs like Rikti, Vanguard, Malta, etc with lots of end drain and psi damage.. Taking out oranges, reds, and purples that are levels 52-53 so quickly while soloing is quite a new experience for her.
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No, it doesn't. It shows that one player is able to do something... Even the most dedicated PB Players, AIB included, acknowledge the dire need PB's have for a buff. These Light Form changes are probably the silliest thing to have a problem with, and I can't for the life of me understand why you don't think perma LF across forms is worth having to stand still for a second.|
Originally Posted by Irresponsible
Pics or it didn't happen! But this just proves my point that there was nothing wrong with PBs that couldn't be fixed if we all just learned to play more better
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| I went and pushed the difficulty slider up to +2/x4 with bosses and it's a little more difficult for my decidedly average PB build but still doable against even hard mobs like Rikti, Vanguard, Malta, etc with lots of end drain and psi damage.. Taking out oranges, reds, and purples that are levels 52-53 so quickly while soloing is quite a new experience for her. |
What is the Kheldian surprise?
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The guy working on us has been primarily busy getting zone events and giant monster's working. In particular the Seed of Hamidon and stuff in the Halloween trial. Likely was given khelds to "practice" with. Might explain why he doesn't wanna mess with too much.
| Jeff Hamilton aka Arbiter Hawk has been working at Paragon for about a year as assistant system, he does monsters and villains and zone events and such. He started off in QA. Even though he's not QA anymore, he's kept the Arbiter name. |
I kept asking Kheldian Questions during the Q&A section and Zwillinger kept studiously ignoring them. Was rather annoying since Arbiter Hawk has been the ... most communicative ... of the Red Names on Kheldian Issues up until this point.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I woulda been there with you except for prior engagements yesterday.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
I kept asking Kheldian Questions during the Q&A section and Zwillinger kept studiously ignoring them. Was rather annoying since Arbiter Hawk has been the ... most communicative ... of the Red Names on Kheldian Issues up until this point.
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I really don't have my hopes up that they're going to do anything worthwhile with us. Everything I've seen so far screams "Do a couple things to shut em up, then forget about em". They've done nothing to show me that they're actually going to TRY and fix us...just another patch job, the last one we'll get for a couple years.
The first strike against them is they wont talk to us...
The second is they insist they're talking ABOUT us, but they've been doing that as long as I remember, which leads me to believe all the talk consists of "Kheld's are whining again" and that is it...not that they're talking to us to tell us what they're saying about us in the first place.
The third is of course such WONDERFUL comments as "Changing knockback to knockdown would give PB's more AoE damage than Super Strength"...
Three strikes, they're out...and so is my hope that anything serious is going to occur.
Finally for caught up on this thread and the changed. I see most of the changes as good. I bemoan the lost of Foot Stomp for Solar Flare. but I understand the visual need for the animation change. The big plus is that is allows a White Dwarf to teleport into a spawn and immediate do a Dwarf Flare w/o having to wait the Teleport Hover. It makes the White Dwarf a better tank.
The Light Form change worries me. The loss of 4/5ths of the Mezz Protection worries me the most. It loses it's OH SH** usability. And given I actually haven't tested the change out yet, I'm worried about my solo play ability specifically right Elite Bosses. Light Form w/ is a staple for fight Elite Bosses solo. It's a rare EB that my PB can take down in under 1:30. Now with 1:30 min up time and 1:00 min downtime. My PB defeating a EB now seems very doubtful. Surviving 60 secs vs an EB waiting for Light Form to be recharge.
And on the touchy topic of the Kheldian Inherent. I'm on the side that says is close to perfect (IMHO) and don't want it changed much at all. The only weakness of the Khelds Inherent is in regards to the +1 Mag/control-type mezz protection. With only 1 control-type, Mag 1 status protection is worthless. It provides no benefit what so ever. The other buffs +10 RES or +20 DMG are obviously useful.
My suggestion for making the Kheldian Inherent Power perfect would be to give it a base +1 Mag Status Protection. And reduced the status protection of Dwarf Form and Light Form by -1 Mag to offset the Inherent's +1 Mag. Solo or w/o a control-type AT on the team, it provides no appreciable protection. But with 1 control-type on the team, Mag Status Protection is some appreciable, yet modest, protection.
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The ready answer seems to be: "What are you whining about? With IO's you can make it PERMA!"|
Originally Posted by Fuzun
The Light Form change worries me. The loss of 4/5ths of the Mezz Protection worries me the most. It loses it's OH SH** usability. And given I actually haven't tested the change out yet, I'm worried about my solo play ability specifically right Elite Bosses. Light Form w/ is a staple for fight Elite Bosses solo. It's a rare EB that my PB can take down in under 1:30. Now with 1:30 min up time and 1:00 min downtime. My PB defeating a EB now seems very doubtful. Surviving 60 secs vs an EB waiting for Light Form to be recharge.
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It's as if everything else in the game is balanced around SO's EXCEPT for Peacebringers.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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And my ready answer is that my PB's build is based around 40+ Hamidon Enhancers. Even with the Enhancer poppers, it would take a lot of resources to strip them all out. Besides I like the build, I'm not going to change it.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
The ready answer seems to be: "What are you whining about? With IO's you can make it PERMA!"
It's as if everything else in the game is balanced around SO's EXCEPT for Peacebringers. |
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Nor should you have to, and my remark was not directed at you in the least.|
Originally Posted by Fuzun
And my ready answer is that my PB's build is based around 40+ Hamidon Enhancers. Even with the Enhancer poppers, it would take a lot of resources to strip them all out. Besides I like the build, I'm not going to change it.
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These changes pretty much ignore any playstyle that doesn't rely on human-centric high recharge IO builds, they ignore the rapid decline in relative performance that Peacebringers experience starting at level 26.
Basically, we're being told that we have to conform to a distinctly narrower range of playstyles if we want to benefit from these changes.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
A new player comes up to you. They're interested in buying access to Peacebringers and/or Warshades in the Store, and want to know if you think it's worth it.
Would you advise them to spend their money on unlocking Peacebringers and/or Warshades?
If this question were about Controllers, or Masterminds I would say yes, no question. Warshades and VEATs, I don't have enough experience on, but I wouldn't advise against it.
Peacebringers... I don't know. I wouldn't want to say "don't bother," I like my PB, but any answer I give would have to be heavily qualified.
My honest answer: It depends on what you want to do, and how you want to do it. If you're into reflex-intensive hi-octane combat with an archetype that can change its role on the fly as fast as a battle tide can turn, and then feast on the corpses of its enemies when it's over, then I'd recommend buying a Warshade any day.
And if you're into self-reliance and amazing survival in the face of everything except psi and toxic damage, and don't want to have to be constantly shifting forms (but still want the option) then you might enjoy Peacebringers.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies