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Counter to Counter: Here's a question; Do the devs view Kheldians as ONLY team players? (Sort of like defenders?) Because, if so, they would be justified in using our inherent as an excuse. Otherwise, it should be no excuse whatsoever. Most AT's can EASILY do +1x4 missions (with or without bosses.) Kheldian Human Forms (PBs especially) struggle with soloing. And honestly, every archetype should be able to solo at level 50, having some sort of way to deal with mez control for everyone's playstyle.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
The only counter I can find is the hypothetical abuse of a Kheldians' inherent, where they snatch +140% damage bonus from their team-mates, OR +7 mag prot, OR +70% res. It's the only circumstance where it's justifiable to fear "Peacebringers becoming overpowered". Some might argue that Human Form is only weak if you don't team, or if you team with the wrong kind of people, and [sarcasm]woe to you and your future grandchildren if you haven't yet learned the value of massive knockback in your attacks![/sarcasm]
There's your counter. A weak one, I know, but enough to keep the buffs away for the moment. IMO, until that inherent is looked at, there's never going to be any serious buffs coming this way. |
And worrying about Kheldian's becoming OP? I'm sorry, but that's too sad to even laugh at. Even Warshades, who can be truly epic, aren't that OP. Besides, it takes a massive learning curve to play them and the awesome purple destruction is a fair reward for learning such a difficult playstyle.
TL;DR - If mez protect/Knockdown makes a Kheldian OP, then obviously Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and VEAT's are gods.
Templar of Truth Level 50+++ Triform Peacebringer - Server Freedom
Templar of Judgement Level 50+++ Triform Warshade - Server Freedom
Gaze into the Abyss... OR ...Walk in the LightTemplar of Judgement Level 50+++ Triform Warshade - Server Freedom
And you thought eight Kheldians were awesome...
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Alternate Counter...|
Originally Posted by Diggaroo
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And worrying about Kheldian's becoming OP? I'm sorry, but that's too sad to even laugh at. Even Warshades, who can be truly epic, aren't that OP. Besides, it takes a massive learning curve to play them and the awesome purple destruction is a fair reward for learning such a difficult playstyle. TL;DR - If mez protect/Knockdown makes a Kheldian OP, then obviously Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and VEAT's are gods. |
140% damage out of a 300% damage cap. Nova brings 45% itself, so you're likely to be brushing the damage cap pretty hard as a PB. You'll have well surpassed it as a Warshade double mired.
Same goes for the potential 70% resist. We've got a hard cap at 85%. Which WS's hit fairly easily through eclipse, and PB's will be hitting a lot more often through the updated Lightform. So most of that extra resist is just sitting there doing a whole lot of nothing. Cant even argue its useful in Nova or Dwarf, Eclipse has always carried over, and here shortly Lightform will too.
The Mag 7 mez prot isn't all that hot either. If you've got 7 controllers/dominators on your team everything is locked right down, and if it isn't then you've got lazy controllers.
So the oft quoted "overpowered inherent" isn't really as overpowered as people would like to claim it is. The most useful being the damage buff...but the thing to keep in mind is how often do you see teams composed entirely of tankers, defenders, masterminds, and corruptors? I don't know about anyone else, but most of the time I'm seeing teams composed of a healthy smattering of everything...with a bit of a bias towards brutes and scrappers, but not overly so. The resist is just overdoing it. Both kheld AT's will cap their resists fairly regularly on their own now, so the 70% we'd get out of our inherent is kinda wasted. The mez prot is either too little or unneeded thanks to nothing being able to act anyways from being locked down. There needs to be some changes made. I've stated elsewhere I think our shields should be defense instead of resists to help deal with the problem of resists from the inherent being useless. I also think the mez prot from controllers should be boosted to 2-3 per controller.
Unfortunately, we've had ideas like these for years now and the devs have always steadfastly stood behind their "We're worried of making you OP" defense...which as we've all pretty much agreed is ridiculous. They wont talk to us though, and other than the occasional bone thrown our way to shut us up they don't seem interested in taking their past screw ups seriously. We'll get another patch job like the last time in I-13, and that'll be the last we hear about kheld changes for another 3 to 4 years...
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Considering that in upcoming Freedom non-VIPs will have to pay 12.50 USD to unlock Peacebringers (and only PBs, Warshades aren't included in that package), I'd say the devs' perspective might change if the general consensus among players remains the same - that PBs are a very poorly built, poorly neglected AT not worth investing either the time or the money. Ultimately, that's their call, though, and if the devs think Peacebringers are fine, well, there's nothing we can do but accept it and play something else.
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
Unfortunately, we've had ideas like these for years now and the devs have always steadfastly stood behind their "We're worried of making you OP" defense...which as we've all pretty much agreed is ridiculous. They wont talk to us though, and other than the occasional bone thrown our way to shut us up they don't seem interested in taking their past screw ups seriously. We'll get another patch job like the last time in I-13, and that'll be the last we hear about kheld changes for another 3 to 4 years...
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It's not like they weren't ... you know ... WARNED ... or anything ...
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
if the devs think Peacebringers are fine, well, there's nothing we can do but accept it and play something else.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Under the old difficulty slider I just used to leave it on Rugged while soloing my PB and never worried it as that seemed good enough, only pushing it up to Invincible when on good teams. With the new one I usually put it on +1x2 for level 50 content at the absolute highest. But on beta right now I can run +2x4 with bosses and don't imagine that +1x8 or even +2x8 without bosses would be so hard that it wouldn't be worth the effort. It's starting to feel like the good old days again when I could be marginally proud of my difficulty setting and not often having to feel embarassed cause it's set to -1x3 or something ridiculous like that.|
Originally Posted by Diggaroo
Counter to Counter: Here's a question; Do the devs view Kheldians as ONLY team players? (Sort of like defenders?) Because, if so, they would be justified in using our inherent as an excuse. Otherwise, it should be no excuse whatsoever. Most AT's can EASILY do +1x4 missions (with or without bosses.) Kheldian Human Forms (PBs especially) struggle with soloing. And honestly, every archetype should be able to solo at level 50, having some sort of way to deal with mez control for everyone's playstyle.
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Anymore I don't much mess with the difficulty slider until I get my tier 9s on a toon. Do you really expect to do that kind of stuff solo as a low level HF only PB?
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Well, at this point in time I'm well beyond accepting it. I've put in too much time and effort to my PB to just throw away. I'm just waiting for a catalyst to push me someplace...Either something to show us they're serious, or something to show us they don't give a rats patoot. Regardless, I'm fast reaching a point where I'm going to have to make a decision if I want to stick around with CoH or not...and while my situation isn't likely to be a very common one, how they treat the AT I've declared my "main" is going to either keep me here and paying, or send me looking elsewhere for entertainment.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Ultimately, that's their call, though, and if the devs think Peacebringers are fine, well, there's nothing we can do but accept it and play something else.
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The time between I21's launch and I22 is gonna be make or break for me. Yeah, I realize I'm taking this really "SRS BZNS!" style; but in my defense I've played my kheld since they were released, my first character was a broadsword/invuln scrapper, but I put him away pretty much the minute Kheld's were available. I've then spent the last 6 years or so playing him primarily. So I do take this seriously, I've just plain got a lot of time and effort put into my PB. A lot of anger and frustration as well; but no one can accuse me of being impatient. I think 7 years of waiting is long enough...too much really.
My own ideas for PB/Kheld improvement:
1. Pool powers are available when transformed. If my stone armor alts can go granite form and still retain access to the pool powers then why not the Khelds? I find it hard to believe that it would make them "overamped".
2. human form attacks receive a 20% damage increase.
3. Squid mode: it's powers recharge faster and have a 30% damage increase. Conversely a slightly higher stamina burn to compensate for these changes. Also Pulsar and Photon Seekers being available in this form would be nice for PB, for WS Unchained Essecne and Dark Extraction could be available in squid mode
4. Dwarf Mode: attacks recharge faster and have 30% damage increase, some resist to endurance drain, also they could benefit from a fury bar, I wouldn't mind if the teleport power was yanked from drwaf mode and another attack put in its place, also Dawn Strike/Quasar being available in Dwarf mode as well. Transforming into human form to unleash either of those attacks carries a risk at times, triggering the power when transformed with the usual stamina drain plus reversion to human form however may not be so bad.
5. Also for PB since lightform can now be made perma, aside from pool powers available while transformed (hence access to HASTEN), the lightform power should also be made available while transformed, thus removing the need/risk to revert to human form to reactivate lightform. For WS make eclipse available when transformed.
6. The constant KB/KD debate for PB.....how about special power customization where we can set powers to be either KB or KD?
If nothing else, at least make pool powers available when transformed.
Considering the devs seem to be reluctant to boost damage, would it be a better course of action to request a greater ability to buff/debuff? I've seen a few rather interesting suggestions here and there for buffing some powers.
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This is my thinking as well.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Considering the devs seem to be reluctant to boost damage, would it be a better course of action to request a greater ability to buff/debuff? I've seen a few rather interesting suggestions here and there for buffing some powers.
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
The following is just a pipe dream, but I figure no harm in sharing my whimsical thoughts.
I've always thought that Kheldians needed an inherent that also worked while solo, like pretty much every other AT has.
To that effect, I always thought, gee, why is my inherent limited to team mates only? Why can't I juice up from my enemies?
Granted the buffs gotten from enemies would almost definitely have to be reduced greatly per foe. I'm not even sure how it could work since mobs don't belong to Archetypes I don't think.
So I'm thinking perhaps use their rank to determine what buffs you get.
The following list is just off the top of my head:
Underlings - 1% Recharge per foe in range
Minions - 1% Endurance recovery per foe in range
Leutenants - 1% Health Regeneration per foe in range
Bosses - 5% Mez resistance (not protection, just to be clear) per foe in range
Elite Bosses - 5% Accuracy and 10% damage per foe in range
Arch Villains - 5% Defense and 5% Resistance to all per foe in range
Giant Monsters - 10% Defense to all per foe in range
Note: All of the above buffs are capped at a maximum of 10 from each rank. So for example, 10 underlings would cap you at +10% recharge, more underlings wouldn't buff you further.
Perhaps this could be turned into an inherent aura that requires a to hit check, and cycles once every 10 seconds and the buffs last 10 seconds. This way you aren't guaranteed to get any buffs constantly, but odds are you're likely going to hit some foes, just not all the foes around you. The to hit signifies that unlike your willing team mates, your foes do not want to willingly part with their energies, so they resist your attempts.
Or perhaps instead of a PBAoE aura effect, have this tied in to your attacks, sort of like how a tanker taunts when he punches a foe, you instead juice up from your foe when you successfully hit him.
After looking at my list, I sort of think the last two are almost pointless to include because I can't think of any Kheldians that can solo many AVs or GMs, but I included them on the list for the sake of completeness.
So let me revamp the list and the buffs to only go from Underlings to Elite Bosses:
Lets keep the same buffs listed above, but have them cumulative with the ranks prior, so for example:
Underlings grant 1% Recharge per foe
Minions grant 1% Recharge per foe and 1% Endurance recovery per foe
Leutenants grant 1% Recharge per foe and 1% Endurance recovery per foe and 1% Health regeneration per foe
etc.
The cap will still be 10 regardless of how you mix rank types.
Finally, I'd like to say that I am terrible with numbers, so the numbers I used above are VERY rough and should definitely be adjusted by someone who understands game balance far better than I do.
EDIT: Heck I'd even be OK with giving Warshades an additional source of buffing just because it really fits their power scheme, an automatic short duration buff from corpses that are in range of their inherent. With no to hit check because, hey, they cant fight back and resist because they are dead.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
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I consider Buildup -> Inner Light a damage buff. You used to get =80% for 10s. Now it's +100% for 10s, then +30% for 20 more secs.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Considering the devs seem to be reluctant to boost damage...
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I would agree. And I would also say the devs were reluctant to boost damage further with the changes that have now gone live, as they wanted to see how they go (that's the clearest indication I have received from Arbiter Hawk on this point). |
Originally Posted by Socorro
I consider Buildup -> Inner Light a damage buff. You used to get =80% for 10s. Now it's +100% for 10s, then +30% for 20 more secs.
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So we can keep bringing together good ideas (maybe in different directions, a buffing direction, or something else, etc.), and we'll see where they go with it. We know further animation changes are planned, so hopefully good arguments will convince them to go further with other improvements.
I will say this for the changes after running my Peacebringer through the 10 hero alignment missions and a few more Incarnate trials. He is much better and more fun to play, and feels more viable in human form. Frankly, I enjoyed him less while soloing before, and now that feels like a good option for him now.
That said, Solar Flare and Pulsar are certainly still too weak. Making the improvements we have suggested time and again for these (KD instead of KB, guaranteed Mag 3) are in no way unbalancing, but actually make these powers and Peacebringers more balanced. I.e., in line with other ATs and powersets. I'm not going to let go on these changes at all, and the DPS numbers still make me think a little something more is needed.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
There are a few suggestions I think would make a huge difference...
1) Remove the KB from Solar Flare.. ts just ridiculous that some of the dev team just doesnt want to make a change that almost the ENTIRE community has been asking for...
2) Exactly what is the Flare on Solar Flare.. Here is another suggestion.. remove the Knockback or Knockdown effect altogether and add a Mag 2 Stun onto Solar FLARE.. with the flash effect..
3) This would THEN make Pulsar worth a crap because at least it could STACK.. You know how the WARSHADE can stack Mezzes ????
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by Socorro
I consider Buildup -> Inner Light a damage buff.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
That said, Solar Flare and Pulsar are certainly still too weak. Making the improvements we have suggested time and again for these (KD instead of KB, guaranteed Mag 3) are in no way unbalancing, but actually make these powers and Peacebringers more balanced. I.e., in line with other ATs and powersets. I'm not going to let go on these changes at all, and the DPS numbers still make me think a little something more is needed.
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How about just making every attack that has either hold or stun, do BOTH, hold AND stun.
This will do several things, first, allow PBs a greater variety in choice of what sets to slot, and allow for folks to either go in the hold direction or the stun direction (not likely to be able to go in both directions due to limited slots available and even if they did, it wouldn't be overpowered since there is no noticable difference between a foe that is held and a foe that is held and stunned), and lastly it will synergize with teammates more since it will stack with whatever they are using, be it holds or stuns.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
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I honestly don't know what the Devs want. Arbiter Hawk was leery of adjusting Solar Flare to KD and Pulsar to a guaranteed Mag 3, which is arguably a debuff capability more than a damage one. He also was iffy on letting Pulsar and Incandescent Strike stack (same for the equivalents with Warshades). |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
This is why I'm thinking a more buff/debuff centric branch of suggestion may be better. It's not that we aren't getting any damage buffs at all, I just don't think things will be elevated to what many are suggesting. I have a feeling that straight out damage isn't what devs want for PBs. Also, I think buff/debuff would make them more favorable for teaming. I've been busy lately but I've got a few ideas for some interesting things. I'll try to type them up at some point.
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I like the idea of mezzing or buffing/debuffing more too, I guess, though I do wonder how our DPS numbers still compare to VEATs. I think they're generally higher than us there as well.
I guess I'm not willing to ask for less than what other ATs seems to be getting, and I still think the evidence is strong that we are weaker in mezzing, buff/debuff, and damage departments than other people. We don't excel in any category enough to make up for our weaker areas as well.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
He also was iffy on letting Pulsar and Incandescent Strike stack (same for the equivalents with Warshades).
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I really hope that G-Well's inability to stack with anything else in the Warshade's arsenal wasn't something he used as a "balance" reference for PB's, since Shades can already stack 3 layers of stuns on top of the ST hold. It's just not a fair comparison in my opinion, and Glowing Touch hardly balances the scales. :/
Another problem I've thought of to add to the list- Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but the KB in Shadow Blast needs to be removed. The description for the power says it is KD but I can confirm that it KB's enemies 2 levels higher than my Warshade, possibly more. This is a problem because the other two attacks in the Human Form ST chain (G Well and E Drain) are melee range and cannot be executed if the target is KB'd without repositioning.
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Well, he's clearly taking the two ATs separately. I just know he said he was iffy on allowing Incandescent Strike and G-Well to stack their mezzes with other powers in both sets. But your point is something that we have countered more than once... Pulsar needs to at least be a guaranteed Mag 3 to be even somewhat competitive with Warshades, and even then, Warhsades can stack their mezzes easily.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I really hope that G-Well's inability to stack with anything else in the Warshade's arsenal wasn't something he used as a "balance" reference for PB's, since Shades can already stack 3 layers of stuns on top of the ST hold. It's just not a fair comparison in my opinion, and Glowing Touch hardly balances the scales. :/
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Pulsar needs improving, and I certainly think you can make argument about how the other mezzes stack.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Another problem I've thought of to add to the list- Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but the KB in Shadow Blast needs to be removed. The description for the power says it is KD but I can confirm that it KB's enemies 2 levels higher than my Warshade, possibly more. This is a problem because the other two attacks in the Human Form ST chain (G Well and E Drain) are melee range and cannot be executed if the target is KB'd without repositioning.
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I honestly do NOT get why. Human form is more melee oriented than range oriented, so having so many KB powers is just counter-productive. What you are saying is the exact same thing I have said for Solar Flare, and could even be argued some for Radiant Strike (though I'd take it for Solar Flare over RS). Such KB issues for melee classes were removed ages ago, and VEATs followed through on those changes. You don't hear Bane players complaining about all the KB in their mace powers. The KB you find in VEATs is for ranged attacks, which arguably does not reduce DPS and really is useful mitigation for a ranged AT (or the VEAT put themselves in that position via power picks that they don't necessarily need... I don't think anyone would keep the gun grenade power on a Bane build).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
got it
It would be nice though if Radiant Strike gave you a weak stun, that could perhaps even be slotted to increase its effectiveness, so you'd have something to stack with Pulsar and even sweeter if Proton Scatter and Luminous Detonation both had weak hold effects which could be combined with Icandescent Strike. Heck, even if they just let us slot procs in RS and PS and LD that could give us a chance to hold or stun it would be a help.