Doing a little read-catch-up here:
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Um, yeah. I would hope so. Or are we saying that Peacebringers should be happy having the relative damage output of a tank? Don't want to over power them peacebringers. Next thing you know, they could provide almost as as much damage as a scrapper, then the game will be all unhinged.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Peacebringers have greater AoE Damage Potential than Super Strength
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too bad hawk didn't know what he was talking about when he said that, because there is no way that a pb is out damaging a SS character in any damage area. | Um, yeah. I would hope so. |
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| And I have to disagree that Warshades only perform well with an IO build. I don't really play any of my 50's on SO's, but I can tell you that I didn't have any more difficulty leveling my Warshade up through the game than I did anything else. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I'm not sure if anyone else has posted this - but please let us colour tint Kheldian powers - it might encourage a few others to play the ATs if they were a bit more customizable
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Ah, I guess I misinterpreted the QoL stuff, somewhat. Though toggle suppression would be a performance boost. QoL usually refers to mundane stuff you have to do all the time, like ease of using a base, the AH, etc. Toggle suppression would be a boost to how we play (depending on how it was implemented), which is beyond QoL, to my mind. We're the only AT that has to worry so much about retoggling, outside of ATs with a crashing Tier 9 (and those are hated because of the required retoggling).|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Oh, I wasn't referring to the changes that have already happened as QOL changes- I was talking about things I would like (ie: toggle suppression) being QOL suggestions.
And I have to disagree that Warshades only perform well with an IO build. I don't really play any of my 50's on SO's, but I can tell you that I didn't have any more difficulty leveling my Warshade up through the game than I did anything else. |
I'm not saying that Warshades or even Peacebringers only perform decently on an IO build. However, IOs really help them shore up their slot crunch, and weaknesses. Recharge is plentiful via IOs as well, which also helps Khelidans and their many long recharge powers enormously.
But no matter what enhancements you are using, you have to look at base performance, and what you can build off of. Kheldians are just goofy in that regard, even if I like their overall approach. There are clashes with their caps and inherent, etc.
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Originally Posted by CarminaGadelica
Doing a little read-catch-up here:
Um, yeah. I would hope so. Or are we saying that Peacebringers should be happy having the relative damage output of a tank? Don't want to over power them peacebringers. Next thing you know, they could provide almost as as much damage as a scrapper, then the game will be all unhinged. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Speaking of QoL, does anybody know if the new Burnout power is worth taking for Kheldians? I'd think it would be a major benefit to us.
All the complaining about the comparison to SS AoEs seems to be clouding over the fact that the Devs have given us a way to reduce the knockback from Solar Flare since it can be fired above the heads of mobs now just as with the Nova knockback attacks so it's more like knockdown. It's not perfect but it's more than a bone they've thrown us this time.
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I don't know, I really just don't think very many of our powers are worth firing off THAT quickly. Especially at the cost of your maximum endurance for a bit.|
Originally Posted by Irresponsible
Speaking of QoL, does anybody know if the new Burnout power is worth taking for Kheldians? I'd think it would be a major benefit to us.
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Double lightform/eclipse? Like we need more wasted res...
Double inner light/quad mire? See previous response, replace "res" with "dmg"
Double Photon seekers/One more Fluffy? Photon seekers knocks back so double photon isnt really that useful considering their range, the extra fluffy might be nice, but you're already gonna have a couple out, is the maxend drain worth the extra for a short while longer?
Really, just don't find much in our sets worth taking Burnout over...same in the power pools, double hasten might be alright, but again not sure its worth that reduction in your max end. Im sure some AT's will find a use for it, im just not sure we're one of them.
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It was more of an acknowledgement that it's clunky to have powers requiring a character to be on the ground when their inherent gives them two fly powers. Arbiter Hawk pointed out that you can now use Solar Flare from above as well, and I don't see the huge benefit to it. It still requires you to worry more about your positioning than any power with KD, and it's still hard to keep being in melee range after using it. Mobs flop around and are probably moved to the side a bit from bouncing or from you not positioning yourself perfectly, meaning you are prevented from using your best attacks, just like if they had been pushed a longer distance away. Also, Kheldians are spread thin for slots, so trying to scrounge some up so you can slot Combat Flight enough to move at a decent pace with it is rather hard to do. Both my PB builds are tight and don't have any loose slots to just throw around anywhere. I'd still rather be able to use super speed to stealth in if I choose.|
Originally Posted by Irresponsible
All the complaingin about the comparison to SS AoEs seems to be clouding over the fact that the Devs have given us a way to reduce the knockback from Solar Flare since it can be fired above the heads of mobs now just as with the Nova knocback attacks so it's more like knockdown. It's not perfect but it's more than a bone they've thrown us this time.
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I haven't quite been able to test this, but I'm guessing Solar Flare is rather spherical in its effect shape, meaning that the higher you move up to minimize the KB on your targets, the harder it is to keep them all in range of it.
Last but not least, it requires you to use Hover. I don't mind using it on my few hovering characters, but on my other character, I want to be able to leap or dash around. How I move is a huge part of what a character feels like, and to be required to hover just so I can *kind of* use a PbAOE attack that is KD in other melee powersets just is bothersome.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that we can now use Solar Flare while hovering (it was one of many indications I had that Arbiter Hawk had been reading player feedback on the Kheldian forums, as a few people had pointed this out). I just don't think it's all that beneficial in reducing Solar Flare's KB. It's more or a red herring than a solution to the problem of KB in the power. It's great that Combat Flight is not a drawback in combat for human form, though.
*added*
Zenyth, we do have a lot of long recharge powers, so unless you are in perma Eclipse or Light Form range, it could be helpful. Though as you said, the end drain would make it tough to use, or so I would think.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Just noticed character creation for Peacebringers for the first time last night. Those cool animated slide shows next to the archetype selection? Yeah, the white dwarf slide shows the dwarf performing a foot stomp. Thought that was kind of funny. (but posted it in the bugs forum anyway)
Also, (and the main reason I'm posting this here) I noticed that Kheldians only show up in the "Ranged" and "Tank" sections of the style selector. I guess this gives us an idea of how they see Kheldians. We're tankers in dwarf form and ranged damage in nova form.
What about human form? Why don't Warshades appear in the "crowd control" options, and why don't Peacebringers appear in "melee damage" or at least "support" options?
Especially given the irony that - even though they're promoting the forms there - the vast majority of the changes to Peacebringers benefit human only builds over the forms.
Ironic, no?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
just remove peacebringers from all categories and put them into their own category with the ???? stats as to trick people into playing them
that's pretty much the only way i can see them any new players
at all
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Now I understand. I always thought Peacebringers were melee combatants. I've had it all wrong, they are a blending of Blaster and Tank.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Also, (and the main reason I'm posting this here) I noticed that Kheldians only show up in the "Ranged" and "Tank" sections of the style selector.
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Tank = highest survivability, lower damage
Blaster = highest damage, lower survivability
Peacebringer = tank damage, blaster survivability
Now that I understand, PB's are in danger of becoming extremely over powered. They should not change KB to KD - they should change it to phase enemies on par with the cage powers. That is the only hope we have to keep them in check.
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With toggle suppression we are adding only ONE more toggle to the equation by switching to a form. A toggle that already comes with a recovery boost that stacks with inherent fitness.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Okay, I laughed. But really, they can't be emo: they're wearing too much white!
Toggle suppression instead of detoggling would be very nice, but one of the issues with that solution that has been brought up before is the endurance cost of the toggles. Perhaps increasing the +recovery in the forms - not enough to completely cover the cost, but enough to offset it some with common slotting - and then having non-offensive toggles suppress would be a way compromise and make this happen? |
If you were not having end issues with toggles in human form then you are not going to have end issues with toggle suppresion in either of the forms.
If you are having end issues with toggle suppresion then the compromise is having the ability to shut off any or all of the toggles at your discretion; not asking for more +recovery in the forms.
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I guess that's better than a bunch of question marks, but it's still a little depressing. I hope they don't consider that rating done, because it doesn't cover it all well enough. They really have to stop thinking they can go halfway with Kheldians: that's what got Kheldians into the fix they are in already. Do it right the first time.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Just noticed character creation for Peacebringers for the first time last night. Those cool animated slide shows next to the archetype selection? Yeah, the white dwarf slide shows the dwarf performing a foot stomp. Thought that was kind of funny. (but posted it in the bugs forum anyway)
Also, (and the main reason I'm posting this here) I noticed that Kheldians only show up in the "Ranged" and "Tank" sections of the style selector. I guess this gives us an idea of how they see Kheldians. We're tankers in dwarf form and ranged damage in nova form. What about human form? Why don't Warshades appear in the "crowd control" options, and why don't Peacebringers appear in "melee damage" or at least "support" options? Especially given the irony that - even though they're promoting the forms there - the vast majority of the changes to Peacebringers benefit human only builds over the forms. Ironic, no? |
To be fair, Arbiter Hawk seems to be going for the same thing. It's making him more cautious on some things than I think he should be, but it's still a decent approach. The rating thing, however, can and should be done right now. If anything, they need a rating for each form. Yes, that's added difficulty, but that's a *bonus* of having a unique AT like Kheldians. Don't see Kheldians as a tricky thing to fix or work with. See them as a way to really show off what CoX can do.
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Originally Posted by CarminaGadelica
Now I understand. I always thought Peacebringers were melee combatants. I've had it all wrong, they are a blending of Blaster and Tank.
Tank = highest survivability, lower damage Blaster = highest damage, lower survivability Peacebringer = tank damage, blaster survivability Now that I understand, PB's are in danger of becoming extremely over powered. They should not change KB to KD - they should change it to phase enemies on par with the cage powers. That is the only hope we have to keep them in check. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Grey Pilgrim, do you know if Arbiter Hawk has anything planned about increasing the number of attacks in White Dwarf form, or reducing the number of slots required to make the forms effective?
Give Dwarf mode fury bar or else rage (maybe both?), also some - endurance resistance
Human mode: remove group flight and insert a damage aura
All attacks in all forms have the damage amped up.
Some of the KB should become KD
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Maybe a Rage-less SS?|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
too bad hawk didn't know what he was talking about when he said that, because there is no way that a pb is out damaging a SS character in any damage area.
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Or, actually, yeah, I could see even a Rage SS Tanker being outdamaged by a Peacebringer in terms of AoE damage. SS only has Foot Stomp and without any recharge modification it takes quite a while to recharge, while PBs can fire off a couple of ranged AoE attacks. Now, if you give the Tanker Shield or Fiery Aura, that's another story...
My real gripe with what Hawk said is that he's basically implying what players have known for years: knockback is worse than knockdown. But it's not numerically worse, or worse in any way that really matters or can be measured... it's worse in the aspect that it makes everyone else on the team hate you, and that it is not synergistic with any other AoE potential a Peacebringer might have. Saying you won't change KB to KD because PBs already do enough AoE damage makes absolutely no sense, it's like saying I won't remove the elephant from your room because you've got enough space as it is. There's still an elephant in the room.
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With the recent changes level 38+ PBs now have tanker levels of Resistance in all the forms most of the time, or all of the time if you have perma LF, with only a neglible crash and we do more damage too. Overall it seems like a great improvement which brings us a lot closer to what Warshades and VEATs can do.|
Originally Posted by CarminaGadelica
Now I understand. I always thought Peacebringers were melee combatants. I've had it all wrong, they are a blending of Blaster and Tank.
Tank = highest survivability, lower damage Blaster = highest damage, lower survivability Peacebringer = tank damage, blaster survivability Now that I understand, PB's are in danger of becoming extremely over powered. They should not change KB to KD - they should change it to phase enemies on par with the cage powers. That is the only hope we have to keep them in check. |
I'm having tons of fun in Nova form for the first time in quite a while due to being a nearly indestructible blasting machine (it's not really and there is still the Psi hole but it just feels that way!).
Can anyone comment on the LF crash? Is it the same HP/End hard crash?
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Admittedly, my PB is running on only SOs - but she has endurance issues and Conserve Power doesn't cycle enough to stop all of them. The WS, who has moderate but not heavy IO investment, doesn't have endurance problems as long as I can keep a few corpses handy.|
Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
With toggle suppression we are adding only ONE more toggle to the equation by switching to a form. A toggle that already comes with a recovery boost that stacks with inherent fitness.
If you were not having end issues with toggles in human form then you are not going to have end issues with toggle suppresion in either of the forms. If you are having end issues with toggle suppresion then the compromise is having the ability to shut off any or all of the toggles at your discretion; not asking for more +recovery in the forms. |
Sure, "just turn off the toggles" works. But that's what they already do right now, and then I'm stuck turning them back on again - with the corresponding animation time nuisance - when I swap back. I'd actually prefer that they turn themselves off if I'm going to have to turn them off, because then I don't have to swap trays and there's not enough characters left to do it in the bind.
That's why I mentioned it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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It takes your Heath and Endurance down to 50% if you have full bars.
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Can anyone comment on the LF crash? Is it the same HP/End hard crash?
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single raged footstomp maybe. but SO's can double stack rage. and you can take pyre mastery for fireball. and thats before taking a primary that boosts damage or has another AoE. he's saying that we shouldn't compare footstomp to solar flare and too look at all the tools the AT has, and then tries to justify his point by not following that line of logic. thats my problem with it. |
Maybe a Rage-less SS? Or, actually, yeah, I could see even a Rage SS Tanker being outdamaged by a Peacebringer in terms of AoE damage. SS only has Foot Stomp and without any recharge modification it takes quite a while to recharge, while PBs can fire off a couple of ranged AoE attacks. Now, if you give the Tanker Shield or Fiery Aura, that's another story.. |
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| knockback is worse than knockdown. |
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| it is not synergistic with any other AoE potential a Peacebringer might have. |
gravnetic emanation you can control, power push you can control, force bolt you can control, it's much harder to control solar flare, explosive blast, or any other T/PBAoE knockback.
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| Overall it seems like a great improvement which brings us a lot closer to what Warshades and VEATs can do. |
while i think we should aim for being on par with VEATs, I don't think it's actually plausible to expect. VEATs, have no holes in their design, they have mez, they don't suffer from down times due to form changing, they give team buffs, they're able to soft cap very easily, good damage, don't have a slot crunch, they can tank better, deal damage better, pets are better aren't reliant on enemies I could go on and on. I think it'd be entirely more likely that VEATs would get nerfed down to somewhere inbetween their current level and khelds current level than it is likely that khelds be buffed up to anywhere close to their level.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
What kills me is people over in the Kheldian forum are actually saying that with these new changes LF is too powerful now and that the Resistance given should be lowered because they can cap Resistance with IOs and just LF alone. But the Devs have always said that the game isn't balanced around IOs and Invention set bonuses and for SOs the level is just perfect so you can get 85 % Resistance in Human and Dwarf without having to slot your shields for Resistance (allowing for much needed savings on End) and with only putting a couple of Resistance enhancements in LF. If they rebalance it for IO sets then that will make it a lot harder to go the SO route. I'm also loving the Resistance numbers for Nova right where they are.
If the PB inherent has to be changed so that all the extra Resistance isn't wasted why not change it to provide at least some protection from Psionic damage instead? Some -Endurance protection in Dwarf Form would be good too because of how frustrating it can be to get knocked out of your tank form by getting sapped. Is it possible to have the Inherent grant something different to each of the forms? Like could Nova form maybe get a boost to Toxic Resistance while Human form would possibly be stronger against Psionic damage while teaming?
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I don't know about how it looks on paper but having LF apply to all the forms makes playing a PB just totally awesome.The change is really like night and day.
| seems like, dunno if it actually does. the numbers joe has posted show that it really doesn't bring us alot closer, alittle sure but not on par. and even if it did bring them on par with warshades, both khelds are lightyears behind VEATs. it's night and day playing the two ATs, and very obvious that one was made latter, and made with sense and logic. |
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Perma 85% res nova FTW!.... No wait... I'll still play my Warshade more.
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Originally Posted by Irresponsible
I don't know about how it looks on paper but having LF apply to all the forms makes playing a PB just totally awesome.The change is really like night and day.
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@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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Even on paper the new light form is fantastic. It does everything I could have dreamed. If it has one problem in practice, it's that the crash isn't enough.|
Originally Posted by Irresponsible
I don't know about how it looks on paper but having LF apply to all the forms makes playing a PB just totally awesome.The change is really like night and day.
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....for me to notice. I came over from scrappers, so it's easy for me to get scrapperlocked in Light Form. Before I knew when it had crashed because I couldn't attack and I was no longer a glowing ball of light, and it taught me to look for the crash ahead of time.
Now that it has the token crash and it's just an aura - and not a terribly bright one at that - it's going to take some getting used to. But it's still six shades of awesome both in practice and on paper.
But then I didn't have very much heartburn with Peacebringer survivability before these changes. My survivability was below a Warshade's, but it was fine.
That's my problem with these changes. They essentially made all the changes that had been requested most recently - and while they were popular requests, they were made ad nauseum in spite of numbers proving their lack of overall effectiveness, and they only make us marginally better at what we were already good at to begin with.
The new light form is all that and a bag of chips, but my Peacebringer was main-tanking ITF's for level 50 teams from the time he was 35, and could outlast some of the toughest tankers out there. I didn't need more survivability.
What I needed was damage. Turning Build Up into a pseudo rage was a lackluster suggestion back when I first ran the numbers months ago, and it's a lackluster change now.
The changes to the flares are little more than QoL changes to me, but I'll acknowledge that it made a lot of people very happy, and for that I'm grateful, and I'm very grateful that shifting to dwarf can no longer be interrupted.
If you go by the character creation screens in beta, it's clear they want peacebringers to be tanks with ranged capabilities, but the game already has tanks and our ranged damage is... still lacking.
We're supposed to be shapechangers with a flexible role that can change to serve any team, and the current changes are counter-intuitive to that role. We seem to be leaning more and more towards the tanker role, but the changes also remove any and all motivation for taking the tanker form.
It makes no sense.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I don't think I have ever seen him comment on these. For my part, I don't know that they are necessarily needed. Dwarf form's numbers could be adjusted from where they are to balance it, and I think the slot numbers are what they are (and we are all supposedly going to get three more if they can get the tech figured out in the next issue or so). If our inherent, caps, and forms were set up right for their numbers, too, I don't think that we really need more slots. Especially after we get three more slots in the 20s.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Grey Pilgrim, do you know if Arbiter Hawk has anything planned about increasing the number of attacks in White Dwarf form, or reducing the number of slots required to make the forms effective?
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Maybe a Rage-less SS?
Or, actually, yeah, I could see even a Rage SS Tanker being outdamaged by a Peacebringer in terms of AoE damage. SS only has Foot Stomp and without any recharge modification it takes quite a while to recharge, while PBs can fire off a couple of ranged AoE attacks. Now, if you give the Tanker Shield or Fiery Aura, that's another story... My real gripe with what Hawk said is that he's basically implying what players have known for years: knockback is worse than knockdown. But it's not numerically worse, or worse in any way that really matters or can be measured... it's worse in the aspect that it makes everyone else on the team hate you, and that it is not synergistic with any other AoE potential a Peacebringer might have. Saying you won't change KB to KD because PBs already do enough AoE damage makes absolutely no sense, it's like saying I won't remove the elephant from your room because you've got enough space as it is. There's still an elephant in the room. |
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Originally Posted by Irresponsible
With the recent changes level 38+ PBs now have tanker levels of Resistance in all the forms most of the time, or all of the time if you have perma LF, with only a neglible crash and we do more damage too. Overall it seems like a great improvement which brings us a lot closer to what Warshades and VEATs can do.
I'm having tons of fun in Nova form for the first time in quite a while due to being a nearly indestructible blasting machine (it's not really and there is still the Psi hole but it just feels that way!). |
The changes help, but not as much as you are suggesting.
*added*
Joe, what was your idea for fixing Build Up? I don't really recall it. I did always think Build Up needed some help, and it at least got it. I would say it's good enough for what it needs to be as a power, it just wasn't the only fix Peacebringers needed for their offense to be better.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
And as you point out and we have before, there are still some wonky bits of design with Warshades. They could work better overall, no matter how nice they can do some things now.
Oh, I wasn't referring to the changes that have already happened as QOL changes- I was talking about things I would like (ie: toggle suppression) being QOL suggestions.
And I have to disagree that Warshades only perform well with an IO build. I don't really play any of my 50's on SO's, but I can tell you that I didn't have any more difficulty leveling my Warshade up through the game than I did anything else.