We know the dps part. The question was how the WS compared to my fire dominator. DPS wise, the PB would probably be behind my emp defender. 
Mainly because I simply won't use KB powers unless things are locked down with -KB. At high levels, by the time things are locked down the spawn is all but wiped out from LR and SC from a couple of scrappers.
PBs are pretty far down on the dps chart. On a team its arguable that they lower team dps due to the excessive KB and since a PB doesn't buff team members at all, the slot is generally better off given to someone who can buff the team or do more dps.
If these "buffs" go through, that will probably be it for a long time before PBs get looked at again. As long as they have excessive KB this AT will be a joke.
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Edit: Now that my WS has Clarion, I don't care much about mez. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
No, they're not really all that close for damage for PBs. Energy Assualt's damage blows what PBs can do out of the water, and the comparison gets worse for Fiery Assault. Looking at straight damage numbers, Incandescent Strike is the closest thing to being competitive, but then it recharges and animates more slowly, as well as not being a ranged power (while Doms do have melee attacks, they do have mostly ranged attacks, and good ones at that, something that cannot be said for human form). And of course, PBs can't mez like any Dominator can easily do. Even if they got Pulsar at a guaranteed Mag 3 AND Solar Flare did KD, they wouldn't be in the same boat.
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Reading this, you are saying that KB doesn't decrease damage, but removing it increases damage? If removing it increases damage, then it's obvious that having it decreases damage. Even if you don't want to get into the discussion of whether all KB decreases damage, you must accept that what you just typed clearly shows that KB, in this instance, decreases damage and is being used to do so intentionally. |
Originally Posted by Gilia
The devs didn't say knockback would rein in damage, one dev said turning a melee power's KB to KD would increase damage.
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In actual play, knockback absolutely mitigates damage for enemies and prolongs encounters by keeping enemies alive longer. Enemies get knocked out of rains. debuff patches, footstomps, et cetera. Everyone thinks they are the knockback ninja and they would never knock enemies around at random, but in reality it's a rare player who makes even a token attempt. I'd conservatively say that 99% of players will happily open with explosive blast or solar flare or energy torrent and then wonder why the fight takes so long.
Anyway the devs have spoken. Knockback stays in to limit PB's damage potential because otherwise they will outdamage Super Strength in AoE. Ridiculous to anyone who actually plays the game, but there you have it.
Energy Torrent is like Fly in that it's a power pick that's worse than the craftable/purchaseable temps that mimic it. Which is pretty frustrating actually.
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What DPS part do we know? Guess I'm not following you there. Do you have some numbers that Dominators can put out? Like I said, I'm sure AOE is probably competitive for a Warshade, but I'm not sure it would be for ST damage. I know my Fire Dom does more damage than other Doms, but he seems to do as well against EBs as my Blasters do (for damage).|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
We know the dps part. The question was how the WS compared to my fire dominator. DPS wise, the PB would probably be behind my emp defender.
Mainly because I simply won't use KB powers unless things are locked down with -KB. At high levels, by the time things are locked down the spawn is all but wiped out from LR and SC from a couple of scrappers.PBs are pretty far down on the dps chart. On a team its arguable that they lower team dps due to the excessive KB and since a PB doesn't buff team members at all, the slot is generally better off given to someone who can buff the team or do more dps. If these "buffs" go through, that will probably be it for a long time before PBs get looked at again. As long as they have excessive KB this AT will be a joke. Edit: Now that my WS has Clarion, I don't care much about mez. |
I actually think a Peacebringer does better than a solo Defender, at least in human form. I'm not necessarily the most accomplished Defender player, but I've given up on trying to solo with them. They're teeth-grindingly slow, even with a decent debuff set like Sonic. Beating a boss in Dwarf form takes way too long, but I do okay with a boss against them. But still, it's not all that great.
As for Clarion, it's nice, but it isn't around for most of the game. Going to be glad when my PB gets it, though.
I'm going to keep hoping and arguing for more changes. We know Arbiter Hawk has his eye on animation changes still, and I'll hope he sees the need for other adjustments. He has said more than once that he's keeping his eye on them.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
some defenders can really hurt, especially if they're slotted out hard. i know for a fact that cold/sonic can hurt way more than a peacebringer thanks to the magic of sleet, and i guarantee you that my traps/sonic is better at taking on groups of enemies than my peacebringer (though that might more be a function of utility rather than pure damage, which defenders have over peacebringers in spades.)
that's why i'd really like for peacebringers to gain some kind of overall team utility, because giving them a dinky heal and group fly (ahahahahahahaha) aren't really truly effective non-direct damage contribution to a team. the teamwide cosmic balance would be a pretty good start on that, i think!
being a jack of all trades in this game is meaningless if you suck at everything worse than almost everybody.
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I agree on kb to kd, |
Originally Posted by newchemicals
Comparing my WS to my fire/fire/fire dominator, I would say they are fairly close in damage but I would give the edge to the dominator. The Dom has more single target, control and Mez protection but the Warshade is much tougher. Its a fairly reasonable tradeoff.
I certainly appreciate Smiling_Joe and Grey Pilgrim keeping this topic alive for PBs My first fix for PBs would be to change KB to KD. I don't see why that is so hard to change. |
I do not agree that the warshade being slightly tougher then a Fire^3 dom with slightly less damage, is a fair tradeoff, the Warshade get's a set of badguys specifically to take them out...
PBers and WS's have a horribly bad power lag when you consider they were originally power balanced by the presence of Void Stalkers and Cysts. This current presence when they have been rebalanced against the other ATs, removes they're title as an "Epic" AT and makes them a sub par choice people will play only to get some of the more interesting story lines in the game, and even then the slog to get through some of it, is not worth it.
TL;DR Either remove the Void Stalker presence in every Kheld mission or make them EPIC again
~Elvnsword
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Anyway the devs have spoken. Knockback stays in to limit PB's damage potential because otherwise they will outdamage Super Strength in AoE. Ridiculous to anyone who actually plays the game, but there you have it.
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[Dev response to this thread] "Surprise! We're keeping KB instead of going with KD, so as an AT you still get to SUCK!"
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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Once a Warshade reaches its full potential, Voids and Quants are absolute jokes. You wouldn't even know they were there if it weren't for those cool guns they carry around.|
Originally Posted by elvnsword09
I agree on kb to kd,
I do not agree that the warshade being slightly tougher then a Fire^3 dom with slightly less damage, is a fair tradeoff, the Warshade get's a set of badguys specifically to take them out... |
As for "slightly more survivable," I don't think that's fair. Warshades not only have excellent mitigation, ie: the ability to perma stun entire groups of enemies at a time... They also have a resistance cap only 5% lower than Tanks. And by the way, they can hit that resistance cap all the time with the right slotting, provided there are 5 enemies nearby- Less in Dwarf form.
I honestly don't think anything needs to be changed about Warshades except the animation times on forms, the wonky and often useless inherent (and the disappearing pet bug.) I really feel sort of selfish asking for toggle suppression, a little more survivability for pets, and defense toggles instead of resistance toggles...
Nothing about how the AT functions or performs strikes me as sub par in any way. It's a steep learning curve, but when played and built correctly I don't think there's any question that Warshades have some of the highest survivability and do some of the best aoe damage in the game.
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You shouldn't though.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I really feel sort of selfish asking for toggle suppression, a little more survivability for pets, and defense toggles instead of resistance toggles...
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You shouldn't feel guilty for asking for your AT to make sense.
We're intended to switch forms, that toggles off everything repeatedly. Toggle suppression just makes sense if we're intended to be switching forms regularly. If forms speed up their animation times, thats even more of an incentive to go switching into them, making everything toggle off even more. If its possible, suppression would allow us to switch forms regularly without fear of getting mauled the minute we drop to human because all our defense is turned off. It just makes sense...
I cant say much for pet survivability, I play a PB, my pets are so emo they kill themselves...but having the pet spawn regardless if the corpse fades out for WS's is definitely something that just makes sense.
We have too much resistance, perma eclipse and soon to be perma lightform provide a LARGE chunk of resistance. Our shields provide a pretty good chunk of resistance too. So does our inherent. In the right (Or wrong depending on your point of view) circumstances you're looking at 30-40% resistance that's just sitting there, not doing anything. Changing some of that out for something else just makes sense. Making the shields defense toggles is a simple and elegant solution. You could change the inherent to provide defense instead, another simple solution. It just makes sense...
No one should feel bad about wanting their AT to make sense...not Scrappers, not Brutes, not Defenders, not Corruptors, not anyone. The only real difference is the devs agree that those AT's should make sense, but Khelds? Well, you've seen what Grey_Pilgrim has passed on from Arbiter Hawk...and some of that just doesn't make sense...
On the topic of Toggle Suppression ... and I'm assuming we're talking about the Three Bubbles here, not powers like Orbiting Death and Inky Aspect and Shadow Cloak (hmmm, I detect an attribution pattern here...) ... the KISS solution would be to make the Three Bubbles into Passive Powers which offer different +Resistance values based on which Form you're in.
Human Form (full value)
Dwarf Form (half value?)
Nova Form (minimal value?)
That way you don't have to "worry" about detoggle/retoggle issues with the Three Bubbles. Of course, doing that then begs the question of "what about the animations OF those Bubbles?" ... but that's an Art Department question, rather than a Powers Team question.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I don't see the developers keeping the resistances in the shields in any amount when shifting forms, whether they be made auto or suppressed. As pointed out before: we have more than enough resistance to go around.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
On the topic of Toggle Suppression ... and I'm assuming we're talking about the Three Bubbles here, not powers like Orbiting Death and Inky Aspect and Shadow Cloak (hmmm, I detect an attribution pattern here...) ... the KISS solution would be to make the Three Bubbles into Passive Powers which offer different +Resistance values based on which Form you're in.
Human Form (full value) Dwarf Form (half value?) Nova Form (minimal value?) That way you don't have to "worry" about detoggle/retoggle issues with the Three Bubbles. Of course, doing that then begs the question of "what about the animations OF those Bubbles?" ... but that's an Art Department question, rather than a Powers Team question. |
As for the animation - they changed light form easily enough with a swamped animation team...
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Okay, I laughed. But really, they can't be emo: they're wearing too much white!|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
I cant say much for pet survivability, I play a PB, my pets are so emo they kill themselves...
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Toggle suppression instead of detoggling would be very nice, but one of the issues with that solution that has been brought up before is the endurance cost of the toggles. Perhaps increasing the +recovery in the forms - not enough to completely cover the cost, but enough to offset it some with common slotting - and then having non-offensive toggles suppress would be a way compromise and make this happen?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Regarding toggle suppression, why make the shields suppress but inky aspect or orbiting death just plain turnoff? That makes no sense, as the point of suppression is to avoid the annoyance of always having to turn these toggles back on when going back to human. Offensive toggles turn off during mez suppression as a detriment to your character; if toggles suppress because of something a player does, the offensive ones suppress too, not turn off (see Stalker Dark Armor). Really, activating the shields (with .924 arcancasttime) is not a big deal compared to activating orbiting death or inky aspect (2.244 cast and 1.32 cast respectively).
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Regarding toggle suppression, why make the shields suppress but inky aspect or orbiting death just plain turnoff? That makes no sense, as the point of suppression is to avoid the annoyance of always having to turn these toggles back on when going back to human. Offensive toggles turn off during mez suppression as a detriment to your character; if toggles suppress because of something a player does, the offensive ones suppress too, not turn off (see Stalker Dark Armor). Really, activating the shields (with .924 arcancasttime) is not a big deal compared to activating orbiting death or inky aspect (2.244 cast and 1.32 cast respectively).
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Yep, this. I wasn't only referring to the secondary resistance shields and orbiting/inky, but pool powers like maneuvers, combat jumping, and weave also. No harm in having them suppress when I shift forms- My endurance can handle it just fine thanks.
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Oh, my AT already makes plenty of sense... If you play it correctly.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
You shouldn't though.
You shouldn't feel guilty for asking for your AT to make sense. |
I feel greedy because in my opinion, Warshades are already on the brink of God Mode. Those were just some nice QOL features I was asking for.
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And invest heavily in an IOd build?
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Oh, my AT already makes plenty of sense... If you play it correctly.
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OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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Well, yeah. I personally am fond enough of my Warshade to invest in him. He is my favorite character, I realize what he is capable of, and I think he's worth devoting enough of my game time to in order to get him where I want him.....|
Originally Posted by oreso
And invest heavily in an IOd build?
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Spoiler: I'm right. My Warshade does amazing things... Because I was willing to invest in him with not only inf, but also time spent understanding how Warshades work via my own personal in game experiences on top of the amazing resources the Kheldian community has provided us all with (See: every Microcosm post, every Dechs Kaison post, etc.)
The same philosophy is true for any AT or character. Once you get an IO build and a firm understanding of what you can do, you can shine in almost any situation. Given the fact that Kheldians are the focus of this thread, I don't feel it should be opened up to that extent... But the post I quoted implied that only Warshades shine with IO builds. News flash: Everything shines with IO builds! The sky is blue, also!
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peacebringers|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The same philosophy is true for any AT or character. Once you get an IO build and a firm understanding of what you can do, you can shine in almost any situation. Given the fact that Kheldians are the focus of this thread, I don't feel it should be opened up to that extent... But the post I quoted implied that only Warshades shine with IO builds. News flash: Everything shines with IO builds! The sky is blue, also!
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Yeah, my concern is that warshades -only- shine when heavily IOd. Some changes in the same fashion of the Dominator changes might be good (where Domination +dam was baked directly into the powers). Those changes wouldn't debuff those who are already perma-whatever, but will raise the performance of those that aren't.
Basically, reformulate the powers so that PBs and WSs don't need to be constantly at the resistance and +damage hardcaps to be effective. And we have less ability to reach those caps without outside buffs.
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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lmao |
Originally Posted by Tabcef
peacebringers
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Seriously though, now I just need photon seekers actually contributing some solid dps, and it would be nice if group flight became a minor damage aura so it had some use, oh, and the kb problem...
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Quote:
Um... you mean instead of group flight, you'd want a damage aura, not "add a damage aura to group flight," correct?|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
...group flight became a minor damage aura so it had some use...
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Just confirming, because the latter would be HI-larious.
"Follow me into the air, squishies! Oh, by the way we'll be doing just enough damage to everything we fly past to direct the wrath of the entire lot right at you..."
I'd take it.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Ya I actually meant the latter so as not to break the cottage rule and for the fun you mentioned |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Um... you mean instead of group flight, you'd want a damage aura, not "add a damage aura to group flight," correct?
Just confirming, because the latter would be HI-larious. "Follow me into the air, squishies! Oh, by the way we'll be doing just enough damage to everything we fly past to direct the wrath of the entire lot right at you..." I'd take it. |
Could be turned to combat hover to provide the team a very small defense bonus as well. Before people could choose to make travel powers not affect them I would have had a problem but now... Just something to make it useful at all.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Quote:
I would agree, I think Two Headed Boy is letting his love of Warshades cloud his judgement a bit. The changes we're seeing on test to Warshades aren't QoL changes so much as balance and power adjustment. Their stealth power wasn't giving defense as it should, and Dwarf wasn't taunting as it should, nor was Dwarf providing mez protection instantly like it should, etc.|
Originally Posted by oreso
Yeah, my concern is that warshades -only- shine when heavily IOd. Some changes in the same fashion of the Dominator changes might be good (where Domination +dam was baked directly into the powers). Those changes wouldn't debuff those who are already perma-whatever, but will raise the performance of those that aren't.
Basically, reformulate the powers so that PBs and WSs don't need to be constantly at the resistance and +damage hardcaps to be effective. And we have less ability to reach those caps without outside buffs. |
And as you point out and we have before, there are still some wonky bits of design with Warshades. They could work better overall, no matter how nice they can do some things now.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
While I think that would funny, I think in the end that would be another reason folks don't want PB's around. SAt least if it were group hover instead of group fly, though, it would take away one of the more hilarious (or annoying based on PoV) other features of group fly - the caster being significantly faster than the castee.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Ya I actually meant the latter so as not to break the cottage rule and for the fun you mentioned
Could be turned to combat hover to provide the team a very small defense bonus as well. Before people could choose to make travel powers not affect them I would have had a problem but now... Just something to make it useful at all. |
imho whats left to look at is
inherent
dwarf
nova..
human form pb as it stands right now is golden....
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory