My Beta update is up to 21% now (ugh)
Has anyone tried to create a new Kheldian in Freedom? I'm wondering what will happen to our Shadowstar/Sunstorm arcs since all the low level content has been upgraded.
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Still leaves me with almost capped resistance by myself. Throw in just two other people and im probably there...considering the prevalence of brutes, scrappers, blasters and the like (They are really popular) that's still gonna leave a rather large overflow of resistance.|
Originally Posted by AIB
I would be fine with the base resistance of Light Form being lowered...in order that we might receive some Psi resistance.
My proposal was a base resitance of 30% to all. |
Not to mention if we're OP because of getting defense, then what about blasters? Better damage, and with IO's softcapping defenses. Scrapper's and brutes are regularly getting good resist, and defense, and keep good damage.
I'm not asking for straight 25-30% resistance to 25-30% defense...shave it down a little, 7-12% defense on the shields where there's resistance now. During the early game it helps us avoid control powers (Since they just plain have a harder time landing). During the late game it prevents us from overflowing with resists, and it keeps our inherent valuable.
I don't see how it overpowers us. We'd lose 2% resistance for every 1% defense we gain. Where now, we're losing upwards of 80+% resistance if we're on a heavily damage AT stacked team; and even if we aren't we're still probably losing about 10-20%
Besides, shining shield, and quantum shield have always looked more like defensive force field bubbles than resistance anyways...
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| Arbiter Hawk gave the same "wait and see, don't want them to be overpowered" response to the Pulsar stacking with Incandescent idea (and the equivalent for Warshades). Frankly, I'd be okay with Pulsar just getting a guaranteed Mag 3. If that and the change to Solar Flare happened, I think we could handle bosses just fine. |
Im not saying all this wouldnt overpower us, but I just don't want us doing like an old pet of mine...if she didnt know you and you paid any attention to her, she'd get so excited that she'd wee in the floor...I don't want us getting so caught up in getting attention that we leave puddles when we should be making sure we're getting the changes we need.
My top priorities after these changes are:
Both
- Shorter animation times for form shifts (Uninterruptable is a huge start.)
- Toggle suppression after form shifts. I'm not asking for toggles to carry over to forms, just that they be automatically retoggled without any delay once human form is entered again.
- A taunt aura in Dwarf form or auto hit in the Dwarf taunts.
- Buff essence drain so that it either deals more damage or has better accuracy and gives more of a heal.
- Make Gravimetric Snare a cone. Tri Formers get no use out of Orbiting Death or a resistance toggle so this is the only practical option at this level. If Grav Snare were made into a cone it would actually be useful
- Add status protection to our auto power. Since Light Form can now be made perma (or close to) Peacebringers will have status protection in all forms without Clarion. This is unbalanced.
- Fix the Extracted essence disappearing bug. Also, get them to stop charging into melee when all of their attacks are ranged.
- Make the new build up clickable in forms, or add a clone of it to Dwarf form. Even with the much needed buff, I still see stacked mires outshining it substantially.
- Give Pulsar a better chance to stun. It is practically worthless as of now.
- There's no reason why PB's shouldn't have access to the new zone teleportation power.
- Change the KB in the Flare powers to KD.
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Agreed. I have thanked Arbiter Hawk and the devs more than once for looking at Kheldians, since they have been sitting so much. And the Inner Light and Light Form changes are quite good and fun, if incomplete.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Wow. Thanks devs for actually listening to us and taking the time to fix some of these issues.
I'll be submitting a bug report in beta with this info. Would appreciate it if some others would as well so we make sure someone notices the problem. |
Thanks for noting this is a bug. I assumed it was like Stealth and supposed to half suppress. I honestly do not play Warshades much (mine is stalled in the early 20s), so I would never have noticed this. Everyone else, make sure we're not missing anything.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
My Beta update is up to 21% now (ugh)
Has anyone tried to create a new Kheldian in Freedom? I'm wondering what will happen to our Shadowstar/Sunstorm arcs since all the low level content has been upgraded. |
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
Not to mention if we're OP because of getting defense, then what about blasters? Better damage, and with IO's softcapping defenses. Scrapper's and brutes are regularly getting good resist, and defense, and keep good damage.
I just really don't want us to "settle" here. It took us four years after release to get the devs to give us a first pass and we settled for less than we should have then...its taken three years to get this second pass and I want to make sure that we aren't griping in the kheld forum for another 3-4 years because this one didn't get everything to a comfortable place either. Im not saying all this wouldnt overpower us, but I just don't want us doing like an old pet of mine...if she didnt know you and you paid any attention to her, she'd get so excited that she'd wee in the floor...I don't want us getting so caught up in getting attention that we leave puddles when we should be making sure we're getting the changes we need. |
So I am in complete agreement about not settling. It's fair to say that Kheldians were designed with an effective and interesting overall concept, but with powers that do not work all that well together. That means they have needed and continue to need more changes to get where they need to be.
On your defense note, I'm not sure what you mean by Blasters getting soft-capped defense. They can only get there by a very specific build that is probably going to weaken other IO and power choices, so that's not a good example. They have as much defense potential as Kheldians do, but Kheldians have scads more resists to run with. Nova is going to be a fairly safe "Blaster" after these Light Form changes, if not quite as strong offensively.
Also, you have to think of all this in terms of overall balance. I'd rather keep our resists as they are now if it means making other problem powers get improved or adjusted. Like Solar Flare's KB and Pulsar's stun, yes, but even the possibility of more damage in some powers, or a damage boost to our inherent while solo. I think those things would be just as useful, or even more interesting, than lowered resists and some defense. Also, I'd rather keep us distinct from VEATs. I find our resists interesting and different stylistically, though I realize your mileage may vary there.
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff.
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I'm not sure about that. The powers are equal in recharge and duration, and Eclipse can surpass the resists of Light Form, and with no crash whatsoever. Light Form does have mez protection, but it's only Mag 3. That's nice, but if you have ever used Acrobatics for hold protection on a squishy, you know it's not enough if there is more than one mezzer around.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff.
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I would say the two powers are pretty equivalent. Both have pros and cons and are unique enough to keep the two sets different but balanced from each other.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I'm with Microcosm on that one.
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I also agree with AIB's suggestion to lower the resistance provided by Light Form and adding Psi Resistance.
| I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff. |
Wait. What? Solar Flare change??
....Can it be?
Oh wait..
Darn.
You almost got me to play a PB again...
Almost.
I'll keep dreaming 
Changes looks really interesting.
Enough to make me get my PB out of retirement to try. Have to respec him for inherent fitness too.
I'd love to see toggle suppression when dropping forms. I wonder if the hiccup is that paying end for suppressed toggles in other forms wouldn't go down well.
Being able to use solar flare when in over is great - though c'mon just make it KD please.
Autohit taunts would be all I'd want for buffing the tanking abilities of khelds.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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And while we're at it can we get its name changed from "Light Form" to "Resplendence." |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I'm with Microcosm on that one.
I also agree with AIB's suggestion to lower the resistance provided by Light Form and adding Psi Resistance. |
Why you ask?
1. From what I have read, the ball of light animation (i.e. the Light Form) will be replaced.
2. This power will no longer lock you into one form (i.e. the Light Form).
3. Since you can freely switch between three forms (Human, Nova, Dwarf) while using this power and since it adds a splendid or dazzling appearance to your forms...why not call it...
"Resplendence"
Can I get a second?
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Oh noes. The 6 years of performance dominance by warshades is under a moderate threat on the defensive side of the equation!|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff.
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If this trend keeps up, then in 2017 peacebringers will get something that's as good as extracted essence! Quickly, to your forum battlestations, this cannot stand unopposed!
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
do you still get the crash from Lightform if you renew it before the duration ends?
For that matter, is it still effected by +recharge and able to be made perma?
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Oh noes. The 6 years of performance dominance by warshades is under a moderate threat on the defensive side of the equation!
If this trend keeps up, then in 2017 peacebringers will get something that's as good as extracted essence! Quickly, to your forum battlestations, this cannot stand unopposed! |
The thing to take into account is that Warshades are more powerful for a reason: We incur a very risky playstyle to achieve the feats we are capable of. Our 85% resistance to all and 300% damage comes from charging head on into spawns with no guarantee of any protection whatsoever- Eclipse can misfire.
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And lightform can crash while you're midbattle.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The thing to take into account is that Warshades are more powerful for a reason: We incur a very risky playstyle to achieve the feats we are capable of. Our 85% resistance to all and 300% damage comes from charging head on into spawns with no guarantee of any protection whatsoever- Eclipse can misfire.
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Also, know your own AT. The real key to warshade dps is the extracted essences, not the mires. Both kheldian branches are flirting with the damage cap from their team buffs in many times. Warshades will still handily outdamage peacebringers as long as they're able to get out 2 extracted essences, let alone 3.
Now PBs just have comparable defense outside of dwarf form, which is good, because black dwarf form is significantly more powerful offensively than white dwarf too.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Lets get mechanics settled first, THEN we can argue about whose favorite word we should use for the powers.|
"Resplendence" Can I get a second?
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<.<
>.>
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do you still get the crash from Lightform if you renew it before the duration ends? For that matter, is it still effected by +recharge and able to be made perma? |
No clue on the first part, Im close, but just shy of stackable, and since I get booted every little bit from bugs, I cant really get a respec done to fiddle. Id assume you still have the crash though...wouldnt be much of a downside if it went away the minute you got it to stack for a few seconds.
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Know your own AT? Uhh.. That was uncalled for. I know my AT well, thanks. How about "don't be a jerk?"|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
And lightform can crash while you're midbattle.
Also, know your own AT. The real key to warshade dps is the extracted essences, not the mires. |
I brought up Mires as an example of a benefit that Warshades have over Peacebringers that is situational and high risk, and therefore deserved, in response to your original comment.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Oh noes. The 6 years of performance dominance by warshades is under a moderate threat on the defensive side of the equation!
If this trend keeps up, then in 2017 peacebringers will get something that's as good as extracted essence! Quickly, to your forum battlestations, this cannot stand unopposed! |
I'd just like to say this. I was going to respond in specific to a few of these gripes, before I realized it'd be counter productive. But...I still have a few things to say. First off, Warshades being "at risk" I feel falls apart after one softcaps defense with sets: something that's only getting easier with time.
Two, and more importantly. God forbid Peacebringer doesn't exist permanently in the shadow of Warshade. God forbid they get something nicer than you. Most of all, god forbid they turn into a viable character archetype instead of a joke. Try to have some perspective.
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How about "don't set up straw men and I won't burn them down around you?" |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Know your own AT? Uhh.. That was uncalled for. I know my AT well, thanks. How about "don't be a jerk?"
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| I brought up Mires as an example of a benefit that Warshades have over Peacebringers that is situational and high risk, and therefore deserved, in response to your original comment. |
And stygian circle is just as key to warshade survivability numbers as eclipse is, and it's something peacebringers still have no real answer to in terms of magnitude of effect or frequency of use.
As far as "situational" - what situation besides "there are enemies here" do you need damage or damage resistance in?
Right, I thought so.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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A thousand times this. Both Kheldian types are getting some long-awaited changes and Peacebringers have been the laughing stock of the Archetypes for a long time. This is not an appropriate time or place for a pissing contest or for griping about losing the insane power lead Warshades have... I mean, hell, really, Warshades built for their potential are one of the strongest single characters in the game. Complaining about Peacebringer buffs because they make you feel less special is just asinine.|
Originally Posted by Mousetrap
I'd just like to say this. I was going to respond in specific to a few of these gripes, before I realized it'd be counter productive. But...I still have a few things to say. First off, Warshades being "at risk" I feel falls apart after one softcaps defense with sets: something that's only getting easier with time.
Two, and more importantly. God forbid Peacebringer doesn't exist permanently in the shadow of Warshade. God forbid they get something nicer than you. Most of all, god forbid they turn into a viable character archetype instead of a joke. Try to have some perspective. |
Edit: On topic, I think one of the biggest issues I have with the Peacebringer AT is the overwhelming presence of knockback in their attacks. It's been a while since I gave up on mine, but as I recall almost every offensive power they have has at least a chance for knockback. In my opinion, all of their melee attacks should get converted to KD, not just Solar Flare. I can live with the ranged attacks KBing, but would like them better if they KDed instead... the presence of so much knockback on an archetype designed to melee is just mind boggling, I never understood the decision, other than 'BCUZ NRG POWARS HAS KNOCKBACKS K?' that was used as a justification when the AT was made.
I, personally, would also like to see the targeted AoEs (and this includes Bright and Dark Nova too) turned into KD as well, because they're incredibly frustrating to play as or in a team with, im my humble opinion, but I know some people don't care about that as much.
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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Do you have experience with Warshades? It's not easy (or practical, or beneficial to performance) to softcap even one type or position. Eclipse is the backbone of Warshades' survivability.|
Originally Posted by Mousetrap
I'd just like to say this. I was going to respond in specific to a few of these gripes, before I realized it'd be counter productive. But...I still have a few things to say. First off, Warshades being "at risk" I feel falls apart after one softcaps defense with sets: something that's only getting easier with time.
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| Two, and more importantly. God forbid Peacebringer doesn't exist permanently in the shadow of Warshade. God forbid they get something nicer than you. Most of all, god forbid they turn into a viable character archetype instead of a joke. Try to have some perspective. |
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
How about "don't set up straw men and I won't burn them down around you?"
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As for the rest of your post- You make it seem like I'm saying the AT's are perfectly fine and balanced when that's not how I feel at all. You started getting all snide and angsty because I said Warshades deserve more survivability from Eclipse since it is a situational power- It requires certain conditions to be met and incurs much more risk, whereas Light Form can be used at any time. Sorry for mentioning Mires in there too, your highness.
I really dont know what to say except thanks devs these changes are awesome. I really like the hand clap animation and [Inner Light] is super sweet. I guess that the foot stomp could be an alternate animation at sometime thou. I just have to change some slots around now that [Light Form] is worth it. Now just change [Solar Flare] to KD or KU and make [Pulsar] and [Incandescent Strike] both the same kinda mez.
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No, nothing in my post indicates I want them to be overpowered. Every AT has something better than the others. While I don't play either Kheldian AT, I can tell you what I see. I see a good friend of mine work twice as hard to bring half of what I do as a brute to a group. The OP conga line is a terrible idea, I just want them to be, as I said, "not a joke". Because they're a joke. They'd have to go a long, LONG way to be OP. So, once you're seeing changes to add an IP Ban power to PBs, then you can complain.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I understand Peacebringers shouldn't continue to be Eclipsed (heh) by Warshades, don't think I'm saying otherwise... But I'm sort of reading your post as "Warshades were better for so long that Peacebringers should get to be overpowered now."
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Congratulations, you can be condescending! Would you like a trophy? A sticker perhaps? As for the rest of your post- You make it seem like I'm saying the AT's are perfectly fine and balanced when that's not how I feel at all. You started getting all snide and angsty because I said Warshades deserve more survivability from Eclipse since it is a situational power- It requires certain conditions to be met and incurs much more risk, whereas Light Form can be used at any time. Sorry for mentioning Mires in there too, your highness. |
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I'd have to take the sticker, because apparently it's not allowed to be as nice as the trophy you should get for 'best and most consistent overreaction to internet posts, first day of beta.' |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Congratulations, you can be condescending! Would you like a trophy? A sticker perhaps?
|
(Don't read into things so much).
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| As for the rest of your post- You make it seem like I'm saying the AT's are perfectly fine and balanced when that's not how I feel at all. You started getting all snide and angsty because I said Warshades deserve more survivability from Eclipse since it is a situational power- It requires certain conditions to be met and incurs much more risk, whereas Light Form can be used at any time. Sorry for mentioning Mires in there too, your highness. |
If you want to say eclipse is risky to get off, you are somewhat right. But even with a milder crash than on live, light form is still risky to have end during a battle. One's risky at its start. The other's risky at its finish. I don't know that I'd say one is riskier than the other, but I would say light form's risk is harder to manage. The warshade can choose when and where they eclipse, the peacebringer can't put off light form ending for 10 more seconds because he's low on health already and a Victoria robot just placated him.
But even if we want to call the risks equal or indeed say WSes have a higher risk, you don't eclipse (or mire) in a vacuum where you have no other powers to support them. You don't light form in a vacuum either. Warshades can use powers to mitigate their risk when getting eclipse or mire off, like GE. Peacebringers pulsar isn't suited for preemptive mitigation at all, and it's not even that good at 'post-emptive' mitigation. And stygian circle is an exceptionally powerful healing tool that can be used repeatedly and at short durations.
In the big picture, when you look at the expanded mitigation power lineup, I think warshades are still slightly ahead even with this change to light form. They just aren't 'light years' ahead. Hyuk hyuk.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Sorry if I didn't like your attitude. Have you considered that I reacted the way I did because of your tone?|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I'd have to take the sticker, because apparently it's not allowed to be as nice as the trophy you should get for 'best and most consistent overreaction to internet posts, first day of beta.'
(Don't read into things so much). |
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| No, what I'm saying is that if you're trying to say that light form shouldn't be as effective as eclipse because of things that aren't light form or eclipse (in this case, mires) then you've opened the door to comparing the other powers the two ATs have as well and how the whole package fits together. |
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| If you want to say eclipse is risky to get off, you are somewhat right. But even with a milder crash than on live, light form is still risky to have end during a battle. One's risky at its start. The other's risky at its finish. I don't know that I'd say one is riskier than the other, but I would say light form's risk is harder to manage. The warshade can choose when and where they eclipse, the peacebringer can't put off light form ending for 10 more seconds because he's low on health already and a Victoria robot just placated him. |
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| But even if we want to call the risks equal or indeed say WSes have a higher risk, you don't eclipse (or mire) in a vacuum where you have no other powers to support them. You don't light form in a vacuum either. Warshades can use powers to mitigate their risk when getting eclipse or mire off, like GE. Peacebringers pulsar isn't suited for preemptive mitigation at all, and it's not even that good at 'post-emptive' mitigation. And stygian circle is an exceptionally powerful healing tool that can be used repeatedly and at short durations. |
I have a Peacebringer that I enjoy playing a lot too, and I've had LF crash during a fight before. Under the current (rather harsh) crash, it's still something that's pretty easy to deal with. When my Warshade misfires Eclipse, though, it doesn't usually pan out so well.
edit: As for Stygian Circle, a very powerful tool under the right conditions. There are not always enemies around, especially in a lot of end game content I can think of many scenarios where Warshade powers will be extremely underutilized and Peacebringers will outperform them.
Inner light should be click-able in forms. I like the changes and the new power I'll have to experiment with and see if it's worth it lol. nice changes to Photon Seekers and Light Form.
I agree that the shapeshifting times should be lowered.
Orivon: Lv50+3 PB, Noviro: Lv50+1 WS, and many many more...