Quote:
The no-root while in Light Form was the whole reason I liked Light Form. I never expected it to be perma.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
No rooting while in Light Form is why we no longer have the form-shift, as that is going to be seen as too strong with the current changes. You can basically have perma light form now, and not having rooting would be ridiculous with that. Arbiter Hawk said they are looking into FX changes for this so it is more noticeable, but that is for the future. The FX and artist types are swamped.
|
Oh well...
Quote:
This is not directed at you specifically, but I boggle at the reasoning of the powers team in changing the animation of a footstomp power because it can't be used in the air - something which no one in 4 years on the forums has even mentioned - rather than changing the KB to KD... which people HAVE been asking for all this time. To me that makes even less sense - kind of like putting the cat in the freezer because the drain is stopped up.
|
Originally Posted by Stonehead
Here's the argument: for an archetype with inherent flight, having Solar Flare only be usable on the ground makes little sense.
|
Omega Zim - lvl 50 Rad/Dark/Power Defender, Alpha Zim - lvl 50 Tri-form Peacebringer
Theta Zim - lvl 50 Tri-form Warshade, Nightshade Zim - lvl 50 Dark/Dark/Psi Defender
Omicron Zim - lvl 50 Emp/Psi/Power Defender, Scrappy Joe - lvl 50 MA/SR Scrapper
Okay, I've taken the time to plug the new numbers into my spreadsheets. I'm not going to waste a whole lot of space talking about the spreadhseets and the rationales for why I used SO builds or what attack chains. If you're interested in that, here's the link where I originally applied some math to the Peacebringer/Warshade performance disparity.
There were some problems with the math on those spreadsheets, which have now been corrected on these:
Peacebringer Analysis
Warshade Analysis
The formulae for my calculations are located at the top of each page where relevant, and you can copy/paste the build in the note of the yellow box at the top marked... "BUILD" for a peek at the SO builds I used.
Here's the rundown:
Peacebringers
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 117
Dwarf: 82
Nova: 101
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 170
Dwarf: 137
Nova: 196
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 165
Dwarf: 331
Nova: 106
Fatal Burst:
Human: 5387
Dwarf: 10773
Nova: 3859
Warshades
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 186
Dwarf: 196
Nova: 182
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 264
Dwarf: 302
Nova: 383
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876
Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506
Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868
Fatal Burst:
Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981
Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169
Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941
Tell ya what. I'll cut this post short and tell you why these changes won't work in the next post. M'kay? See you there.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Wow, would have thouht the discrepancy would be a little smaller by now.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
I said it in my last post, and I'll say it again:
The changes you're proposing for Peacebringers won't work.
Oh, they'll increase survivability and damage, but there's more at stake than that.
Last round of changes to Kheldians, Castle flat-out refused to add mez protection to human form. Why? Because there would be no reason to take dwarf form.
Well, congratulations - you've managed to obviate not one, but both peacebringer non-human forms.
Look at the numbers I've posted above.
Humans outdamage novas in single target - it's always worked that way, even for warshades. It balances out when AoE's are taken into account. Looking at the warshade damage potential numbers that still holds true.
EDIT - the following paragraph is not quite as true as it was when I first posted it. Human form does NOT come three dps shy of Nova - it comes about 23 dps shy. Still not enough, IMHO, but enough for me to point out anything that becomes blatant hyperbole as a result of my bad math:
However, you've significantly reduced the recharge of photon seekers and made solar flare useable from the air, AND you've given the bulk of the new build up's buff to human form, only allowing a third of the damage buff to effectively carry over into the forms. This gives enough AoE damage to human form to come just three dps shy of the bright nova's aoe potential. Add the new flight power (and the ability to use solar flare from the air) and you've taken away the only other thing nova had going: unsupressed flight. All that's left is ranged damage, and with the new build up human form peacebringers will be able to leverage the human blasts even more.
Then there's dwarf. With the new light form, humans can cap their resistances almost to the point of perma (with just hasten and SO's there's only 26 seconds of downtime!) and even though you've reduced the mez protection, it's still more than what was asked for when Castle refused it originally. Throw in just one or two controllers on the team and there's no reason to go dwarf. About the only thing White Dwarf will be able to do that human form can't do better is tank and teleport.
...and still peacebringers are doing far less damage than warshades. And the difference is STILL the pets. The problem was never build up.
Honestly. All you had to do was
FIX THE GORRAM PHOTON SEEKERS!!!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I wasn't going to mention the dwarf thing, though I noticed it before. I'm assuming new designers means new thinking. Maybe whoever's behind the change agreed with me that dwarf form should be for heavy tanking and aggro control and mez shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep the human form's practicality suppressed. Sure, white dwarf's damage is abysmal even by tank standards and its aggro control is terrible, but the aggro control could be reasonably easily improved at least.
The nova form thing is kind of discouraging. Though any improvement to photon seekers that didn't result in their becoming an 'actual pet' would favor the human form, cause that's the only form that can use them under the current design.
Which was the fundamental problem with kheldian design from the start and is what makes them so hard to fix, or even just balance, now.
Also, it doesn't surprise me at all that a warshade has that much superior ongoing DPS survivability. Stygian circle is that good. The "it needs to drain bodies" thing is an example of that mindset where even designers are prone to using execution requirement to justify power - in this case it seems that it's very telling about the raw recuperative power of SC backing up eclipse that the warshade's peak burst survival is actually slightly lower than the peacebringer's (they have less outright mitigation), but their peak sustained DPS survival is 5 to 7.5 times higher because their ability to recover damage is incredible.
Kinda proves me right about how the discussion here shouldn't have been limited to strictly eclipse vs light form mano a mano, though. 
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
The problem is "how"...sure we've presented our own ideas in the kheld forum plenty, but like most of the AT, we cant really agree on WHICH of our many ideas to all get behind...|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Honestly. All you had to do was
FIX THE GORRAM PHOTON SEEKERS!!! |
Memphis_Bill will NEVER get behind the idea to make KB into KD on Solar Flare.
Smiling_Joe, you're gung-ho behind "fix the seekers, save the world", and thats ALL thats needed.
AIB is gonna go into seizures and start frothing at the mouth soon if we don't rename Lightform into Resplendence.
We've all got OUR ideas of what needs doing, and pet projects (I really want to see Group Energy flight die and be replaced...I sacrifice rikti monkeys every full moon for this purpose...), and we miss the forest for our trees...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Smiling_Joe, you're gung-ho behind "fix the seekers, save the world", and thats ALL thats needed.
|
No, no. That's not the only thing I want. It's just the single easiest way to address the disparity between the two.
And we have all presented our ideas, but were they really read by the devs? By the looks of the changes, they just skimmed through the first page or two of posts at some point this month, because all the discussion we had in the forums prior to that has apparently been disregarded.
I'd rather see Photon Seekers turned into some sort of clone of Extracted Essences than I would see Light Form turned into a clone of Eclipse.
What REALLY needs to happen is to take the forms into account when making changes to the archetype. That obviously either wasn't done or there is a new, single-form heavy direction for Peacebringers.
Either way they'll still be underperforming.
EDIT - To satisfy my curiosity, what forest are we missing?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Thing is, with these changes human form is even more survivable than dwarf - never mind the mez. I'd take increased aggro management for dwarf as a trade-off for that, however.
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I wasn't going to mention the dwarf thing, though I noticed it before. I'm assuming new designers means new thinking. Maybe whoever's behind the change agreed with me that dwarf form should be for heavy tanking and aggro control and mez shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep the human form's practicality suppressed. Sure, white dwarf's damage is abysmal even by tank standards and its aggro control is terrible, but the aggro control could be reasonably easily improved at least.
|
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
I dont do it often, but ill give the devs the benefit of the doubt this one time. It'd be a whole lot easier if, say...Arbiter Hawk would pop into the kheld forums and talk to us, bounce his ideas off us, let us bounce our ideas off him; but thats not how things are gonna work. It seems they're gonna stick to talking to their testers and themselves, and just reading some of what the rest of the unwashed masses have said and working off that...So we gotta work with what we're given for now.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
No, no. That's not the only thing I want. It's just the single easiest way to address the disparity between the two.
And we have all presented our ideas, but were they really read by the devs? By the looks of the changes, they just skimmed through the first page or two of posts at some point this month, because all the discussion we had in the forums prior to that has apparently been disregarded. |
Quote:
| I'd rather see Photon Seekers turned into some sort of clone of Extracted Essences than I would see Light Form turned into a clone of Eclipse. |
That gets us back to the "how" portion of my previous question though. If we could settle on a solution the devs would likely just go with that and we'd all be happy (hopefully) and everything is hunky dory...but we cant get everyone to agree on just about anything...
Quote:
| What REALLY needs to happen is to take the forms into account when making changes to the archetype. That obviously either wasn't done or there is a new, single-form heavy direction for Peacebringers. |
Quote:
| Either way they'll still be underperforming. |
But the more we close the HUGE GAP the more we can focus on changing the perception of the AT's, and the more I can feel like im not a fifth wheel when im playing with my friends.
Quote:
The numbers you just posted indicated dwarf was still ahead. Even if the two forms have the same resistance, dwarf does have a larger hp pool, and it's better able to handle mass aggro from having higher mez protection.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Thing is, with these changes human form is even more survivable than dwarf - never mind the mez. I'd take increased aggro management for dwarf as a trade-off for that, however.
|
Human's a lot closer for survivability with these changes than it was, especially in the practical sense of not being mezzed by a sneeze, but it definitely hasn't beaten dwarf, as far as I can tell.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
I'm already assuming that anything that gets to this phase is going into the game, but I would be remiss if I didn't at least point out the obvious. If the changes go in, I'll just respec into human form and learn to play a different way, I suppose. |
Originally Posted by Zenyth
I dont do it often, but ill give the devs the benefit of the doubt this one time. It'd be a whole lot easier if, say...Arbiter Hawk would pop into the kheld forums and talk to us, bounce his ideas off us, let us bounce our ideas off him; but thats not how things are gonna work. It seems they're gonna stick to talking to their testers and themselves, and just reading some of what the rest of the unwashed masses have said and working off that...So we gotta work with what we're given for now.
|
Quote:
| Im still a fan of the "hell on earth" solution. a buff that'll spread out our seekers over a duration rather than dropping em all at once...which, while nice, is probably why the numbers dont pan out for it...its a lovely large burst all at once, and then you're waiting for it to cooldown for the next one. |
Quote:
| That gets us back to the "how" portion of my previous question though. If we could settle on a solution the devs would likely just go with that and we'd all be happy (hopefully) and everything is hunky dory...but we cant get everyone to agree on just about anything... |
But then the players don't have access to the data at the developers' disposal. We shouldn't have to solve the problem ourselves, much less agree on it. Developers have all the data and direction they need to make balance decisions and testers to confirm them.
I just don't see how that data could possibly have been used or confirmed with the current changes.
Quote:
| For that they've gotta decide just where the forms all need to be...just how good should nova be compared to a blaster? Where should tankers/brutes stand compared to dwarf? Should Human be able to get that close to both of them? Should we maintan the triform as standard or shift to a single form focused philosophy? |
Warshades are where the forms need to be with relation to each other. One would think that any changes to Peacebringers would have kept that ratio in mind.
Quote:
|
Probably... But the more we close the HUGE GAP the more we can focus on changing the perception of the AT's, and the more I can feel like im not a fifth wheel when im playing with my friends. |
I'd go for the former, myself, but the latter seems to be the direction we're headed.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
It's close enough not to matter. Castle felt that the addition of Mez protection alone would obviate dwarf form. This... well, you're probably looking at a new human former.
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
The numbers you just posted indicated dwarf was still ahead. Even if the two forms have the same resistance, dwarf does have a larger hp pool, and it's better able to handle mass aggro from having higher mez protection.
Human's a lot closer for survivability with these changes than it was, especially in the practical sense of not being mezzed by a sneeze, but it definitely hasn't beaten dwarf, as far as I can tell. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
FYI again, since people seem to be missing my answering this on page 1. Arbiter Hawk has stated they would like to make a Light Form customization option in the future if possible (and improve the current look), and then also make Solar Flare do the old foot stomp animation if you are in the ground. Both, however, require art and FX time, and those departments are currently swamped. So no ETA, just a basic "we've talked to art and FX and have ideas, but they're in the future." The same thing goes with the animation for shapeshifting: they want to shorten it, but need to adjust the FX to make it look right.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I know what you mean. With the original Light Form and Solar Flare effects/animations gone, my Peacebringer is shelved.
Fortunately the Warshade seems to be in better shape than ever. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
It's not comparable, It's better. It can't miss, is not dangerous to use in the first place (a partial crash when you have two human heals and a dwarf heal is easily manageable), and caps you whether you face one opponent or several. It also has mez protection (3 is a lot more than 0), and the recovery bonus is much more useful than a flat endgain.
It's only really worse in two ways: it won't cap nova, and it has no psi. |
But like I said, I don't agree. I and others keep saying it, but the two are balanced. The recharge and duration is the same, with the continuing bonus for Eclipse being it can go higher for resists, has no crash, and costs next to nothing to use. Light Form has a significant crash and can't resist as much as Eclipse can (which does make a difference... not using human shields doesn't matter as much in human form, and Nova can be tougher... both of which stack nicely with Mire), making up for all those detriments by having a fixed rate of bonus and minor mez protection.
The current changes reflect how the two kheldians have worked for years, and is good in methodology. Peacebringers have steady performance, whereas Warshades peak and valley more. In fact, I applaud Arbiter Hawk for balancing the two powers so well.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Myrmydon
Sorry, it looks like they left the "Despite the changes to the Archetype, Kheldians still suck..." section out of the patch notes...
|
Smiling Joe, thanks for the analysis with numbers. I feel like that was lacking in Closed Beta, as I just don't have the gumption or know how (without a lot of time investment to remind myself) to work all those tables. The damage performance between the two is still depressingly low. Would Solar Flare being KD help with that, or is it really just the pets that make the difference, as you say?
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Without the pets' and the nukes' damage contribution, the damage numbers stand as follows:|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Smiling Joe, thanks for the analysis with numbers. I feel like that was lacking in Closed Beta, as I just don't have the gumption or know how (without a lot of time investment to remind myself) to work all those tables. The damage performance between the two is still depressingly low. Would Solar Flare being KD help with that, or is it really just the pets that make the difference, as you say?
|
Peacebringers
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 101
Dwarf: 66
Nova: 72
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 122
Dwarf: 89
Nova: 125
Warshades
Single Target DPS Potential:
Human: 66
Dwarf: 76
Nova: 62
AoE DPS Potential:
Human: 76
Dwarf: 114
Nova: 195
With the notable exception of Black Dwarf, Peacebringers HANDS DOWN outdamage Warshades outside of pet damage.
Dark Extraction with hasten and SO's can be stacked, and two extracted essences can crank out 114 dps against a single target and bring to bear an intimidating 167 dps in AoE damage potential against entire spawns.
Let me put it this way: in 2.24 seconds three Photon Seekers can put out 533 points of damage against a single target. During those same two seconds the warshade's extracted essences deal 255.36 points of damage against the same target. Two seconds later they've equaled Photon Seekers' damage. Four seconds later they've doubled it.
Where are Photon Seekers after eight seconds? Even the new ones are recharging.
EDIT - Keeping those essences alive is the price a warshade pays for that kind of potential. But shouldn't the gap be a whole lot less at the very least?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Very interesting analysis, SJ. I hadn't really thought about the inter-form balance in that way. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
No, no. That's not the only thing I want. It's just the single easiest way to address the disparity between the two.
And we have all presented our ideas, but were they really read by the devs? By the looks of the changes, they just skimmed through the first page or two of posts at some point this month, because all the discussion we had in the forums prior to that has apparently been disregarded. I'd rather see Photon Seekers turned into some sort of clone of Extracted Essences than I would see Light Form turned into a clone of Eclipse. What REALLY needs to happen is to take the forms into account when making changes to the archetype. That obviously either wasn't done or there is a new, single-form heavy direction for Peacebringers. Either way they'll still be underperforming. |
I'm hardly a Kheldian expert, but here's my idea: redesign Photon Seekers so that it can be used to different effect in each of the three forms. Human form keeps the current explosive pet for alpha strike potential. The Dwarf gets something like Photon Sentry, an intangible pet with no attacks in exchange for some sort of heal/buff. Nova gets a Photon Sentinel, which shoots things for reliable ongoing dps.
Obviously technical hurdles might make this a non-starter, but based on Swap Ammo, I think it's at least theoretically possible. The catch is whether the different powers can be made to share the same cooldown timer; I'm unaware of anything like that having been done before.
Anyway, that's my thought.
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
Well, does a Peacebringer's ST damage make up for it? I'm not entirely sure. Looking at those numbers, I rather wonder if a better thing to argue for is better ST DPS for both Peacebringers and Warshades, as it is rather anemic. I know the whole game is not balanced around defeating pylons, but those numbers are what... not even half of what is needed to drop a pylon? Seems kind of iffy for an AT that is mostly offense oriented.
And I'm not sure that Peacebringers are that one form oriented (just wanting to be convinced). It seems like the human form AOE damage seems iffy, since it seems like you couldn't keep it up in game: Solar Flare would knock things back, Photon Seekers does as well, etc., whereas Nova can just keep applying it to every mob and more than once. I also thought Inner Light giving some more benefit to forms would have a bigger impact on their DPS as well.
I also wanted to respond to this:
"Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe 
No, no. That's not the only thing I want. It's just the single easiest way to address the disparity between the two.
And we have all presented our ideas, but were they really read by the devs? By the looks of the changes, they just skimmed through the first page or two of posts at some point this month, because all the discussion we had in the forums prior to that has apparently been disregarded."
It sounds like Arbiter Hawk has been playing Kheldians a lot to get to where the changes are. He's also stated many times that he will keep his eye on them to see what more changes (if any) are needed, besides the promises of future adjustments to animations.
Added to that is the information that Second Measure gave to Chad Gulzow-man (who asked about Kheldians at SDCC for me). He said that they were looking at them, but not to expect anything until I22. I have no idea if the current changes were able to be moved up and he wasn't aware of that at the time, or if they have more planned.
Still, with all of that together, it's good to remember that there is a lot going on in game right now (and not just with Kheldians), but that the devs do have their eye on us. So make good cases for what you want to see changed, and don't get too annoyed if you don't see it right away. We're in a very different spot now than we have been since I11.
I must admit I despaired a little when Arbiter Hawk said he was not currently planning on changing Solar Flare or Pulsar last week, but I do know that he is paying attention and working on things. Being positive overall about this will be a good thing.
*added*
And I can't emphasize enough that it sounds like art and FX are swamped right now, and that seems to be putting a crimp in how much can be done for Kheldians right now. So take that into account when wondering why some changes are or are not happening.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Pilgrim, if you truly feel it is balanced as is, I can get behind it. But I don't think its current level of power should be an excuse to let the abysmal damage or other problems be overlooked though. The other changes are a massive step in the right direction, but they are not fixed yet, as Joes numbers demonstrate.I still want some psi resist 
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Then argue for fixing pulsar. Don't over do it on lightform when your real problem is with the underperforming mez. Plus, wouldn't you rather have a slightly reduced res value in order to gain some psi? And again you would still be able to hit 85% with either shields or dwarf; no one is trying to take that away.
Also, it'd be nice if you could leave the snark out of your comments in a discussion like this. |
qft.
I'm a little wary of any promises to improve animation times. Last time a dev said that about a powerset needing faster animations but the animators were busy (Castle concerning Wormhole and Propel), absolutely nothing came of it.
Quote:
Can't argue more direct damage to warshades without crying nerf and letting loose the bats of balance against Dark Extraction. The last thing I want is to see Dark Extraction nerfed. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Well, does a Peacebringer's ST damage make up for it? I'm not entirely sure. Looking at those numbers, I rather wonder if a better thing to argue for is better ST DPS for both Peacebringers and Warshades, as it is rather anemic. I know the whole game is not balanced around defeating pylons, but those numbers are what... not even half of what is needed to drop a pylon? Seems kind of iffy for an AT that is mostly offense oriented.
|
Not to mention that the anemic damage is balanced against an inherent that gives us - among other things - more damage. In fact, it's possible to cap damage with the inherent, slotting and build up/mire. A better solution than direct damage IMHO would be then to nerf the inherent in favor of direct damage boosts to the powers themselves. Not the damage modifier, because that would bring our modifier too high in relation to other archetypes.
So that leaves us with the developers changing every single damage dealing power in the kheldian archetypes AND nerfing the inherent AND testing all of the above.
Or they could just change Photon Seekers to give a comparable damage contribution to Dark Extraction. My original suggestion was to decrease the recharge and give them the fiery embrace treatment:
Quote:
| The current suggestion I'm currently running the numbers on gives photon seekers the Fiery Embrace treatment, where their self destruct power also grants the player an extra 15% energy damage proc on each of his attacks PER SEEKER for 30 seconds, giving a total damage buff of 45% for 30 seconds after the seekers explode, provided they all explode at the same time. This, along with lowering the recharge to somewhere around 120 seconds (and if I'm calculating correctly you'll have to have considerable IO investment in recharge bonuses to bring that recharge down to 30 seconds, and I don't think you'd bring it down much lower). Flag the photon seekers the way MM tier 1 pets are flagged - making them unique after 3 - and call it a day. |
Single Target:
Human: 132
Nova: 106
Dwarf: 100
AOE:
Human: 207
Nova: 218
Dwarf: 177
Bringing us even closer to warshade damage and maintaining a double digit (but still admittedly small) dps difference between the human and nova aoe. Add to that the fact that it's an energy proc and you've got something that isn't wasted in the damage cap on teams.
And you've only changed one power to do it.
Quote:
| And I'm not sure that Peacebringers are that one form oriented (just wanting to be convinced). It seems like the human form AOE damage seems iffy, since it seems like you couldn't keep it up in game: Solar Flare would knock things back, Photon Seekers does as well, etc., whereas Nova can just keep applying it to every mob and more than once. I also thought Inner Light giving some more benefit to forms would have a bigger impact on their DPS as well. |
Quote:
|
I also wanted to respond to this: It sounds like Arbiter Hawk has been playing Kheldians a lot to get to where the changes are. He's also stated many times that he will keep his eye on them to see what more changes (if any) are needed, besides the promises of future adjustments to animations. Added to that is the information that Second Measure gave to Chad Gulzow-man (who asked about Kheldians at SDCC for me). He said that they were looking at them, but not to expect anything until I22. I have no idea if the current changes were able to be moved up and he wasn't aware of that at the time, or if they have more planned. Still, with all of that together, it's good to remember that there is a lot going on in game right now (and not just with Kheldians), but that the devs do have their eye on us. So make good cases for what you want to see changed, and don't get too annoyed if you don't see it right away. We're in a very different spot now than we have been since I11. I must admit I despaired a little when Arbiter Hawk said he was not currently planning on changing Solar Flare or Pulsar last week, but I do know that he is paying attention and working on things. Being positive overall about this will be a good thing. *added* And I can't emphasize enough that it sounds like art and FX are swamped right now, and that seems to be putting a crimp in how much can be done for Kheldians right now. So take that into account when wondering why some changes are or are not happening. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
And they REFUSE to change it
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Keeping it as KB MAKES NO SENSE whatsoever when the DWARF form of PBs has a similar attack that does KNOCK DOWN.
The logic fails epicly on this one devs. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You know what? Let me avail myself of the copy/paste function and remind you of what those solo numbers were:
PEACEBRINGERS Single Target: Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51 Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9 Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 86.51 AoE: Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 156.51 Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 240.7 Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 133.51 Self Mitigation Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 81 Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 42 Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 153 WARSHADES Single Target: Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 189.08 Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 212.08 Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 198.08 AoE: Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 254.82 Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 368.82 Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 334.82 Self Mitigation Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 81 Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 72 Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 313 Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789 Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767 Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 1426 EVEN SOLO, a warshade with the build contained in the spreadsheets (it's on the first page of each linked sheet, look for a yellow box called "BUILD") can out-damage a scrapper or a brute, given the right conditions. It's that "right conditions" caveat that's kept them from being nerfed I suspect, BUT the point remains that Kheldians do just fine on teams. Peacebringers are out of balance with warshades and have some serious power synergy problems, but there you are. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Without the pets' and the nukes' damage contribution, the damage numbers stand as follows:
Peacebringers Single Target DPS Potential: Human: 101 Dwarf: 66 Nova: 72 AoE DPS Potential: Human: 122 Dwarf: 89 Nova: 125 Warshades Single Target DPS Potential: Human: 66 Dwarf: 76 Nova: 62 AoE DPS Potential: Human: 76 Dwarf: 114 Nova: 195 With the notable exception of Black Dwarf, Peacebringers HANDS DOWN outdamage Warshades outside of pet damage. Dark Extraction with hasten and SO's can be stacked, and two extracted essences can crank out 114 dps against a single target and bring to bear an intimidating 167 dps in AoE damage potential against entire spawns. Let me put it this way: in 2.24 seconds three Photon Seekers can put out 533 points of damage against a single target. During those same two seconds the warshade's extracted essences deal 255.36 points of damage against the same target. Two seconds later they've equaled Photon Seekers' damage. Four seconds later they've doubled it. Where are Photon Seekers after eight seconds? Even the new ones are recharging. EDIT - Keeping those essences alive is the price a warshade pays for that kind of potential. But shouldn't the gap be a whole lot less at the very least? |
Why do your numbers differ from what you posted on another thread about WS damage. Did WS get some sort of nerf?
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
hey i have a cool idea why not just give peacebringers a special type of cosmic balance that gives them a significant flat bonus to everything on top of the current bonus that specific ATs give ok that's my idea thanks for listening
That being said, Arbiter Hawk did say that the game engine allows different animations when you're in the air vs. on the ground, so they MAY look into working on a compromise when they have some time to look at PB animations.
d