The "oh noes WS are overpowered" is pretty funny, since WS were originally thought of to be gimpy peacebringers back in the day.
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Nope. As I said earlier - I found some mathematical errors in my previous spreadsheets. Microcosm was the first to point it out in that very thread you quoted, and I promised at the time to correct them as I had time. I've had time.|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
Why do your numbers differ from what you posted on another thread about WS damage. Did WS get some sort of nerf?
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Namely, I had build up and mire buffing both the base and enhanced damage on each power, which is wrong.
What you're seeing here are the corrected numbers, and also the fact that the past thread you're quoting had pet damage included, and the post from this thread that you're quoting doesn't. THAT post was illustrating how much damage the pets account for. For warshade damage with pet damage included, you might want to check a few posts up.
EDIT: Here, if you're going to compare the numbers I posted before to the numbers I'm maintaining now, I'll go ahead and quote the correct current numbers for you. The current numbers with the changes to peacebringers and damage buffs properly buffing base damage are:
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Peacebringers Single Target DPS Potential: Human: 117 Dwarf: 82 Nova: 88 AoE DPS Potential: Human: 170 Dwarf: 137 Nova: 173 Max Survivable DPS: Human: 165 Dwarf: 331 Nova: 106 Fatal Burst: Human: 5387 Dwarf: 10773 Nova: 3859 Warshades Single Target DPS Potential: Human: 186 Dwarf: 196 Nova: 182 AoE DPS Potential: Human: 264 Dwarf: 302 Nova: 383 Max Survivable DPS: Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876 Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506 Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868 Fatal Burst: Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981 Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169 Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941 |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Wow, nice, I may actually play my Human PB again, been stuck at 42 for ages.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Light form had a new effect. It's now an aura instead of a form change.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Nope. As I said earlier - I found some mathematical errors in my previous spreadsheets. Microcosm was the first to point it out in that very thread you quoted, and I promised at the time to correct them as I had time. I've had time.
Namely, I had build up and mire buffing both the base and enhanced damage on each power, which is wrong. What you're seeing here are the corrected numbers, and also the fact that the past thread you're quoting had pet damage included, and the post from this thread that you're quoting doesn't. THAT post was illustrating how much damage the pets account for. For warshade damage with pet damage included, you might want to check a few posts up. EDIT: Here, if you're going to compare the numbers I posted before to the numbers I'm maintaining now, I'll go ahead and quote the correct current numbers for you. The current numbers with the changes to peacebringers and damage buffs properly buffing base damage are: |
Thanks... I was a bit confused. Numbers give me a headache....lol But from I can tell is that PB's still do less damage than a WS?
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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Yes, that has not changed - peacebringers do slightly more damage now than they did.
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Originally Posted by Big_Soto
Thanks... I was a bit confused. Numbers give me a headache....lol But from I can tell is that PB's still do less damage than a WS?
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Yes, and then they got fixed and suddenly they were fun and much more playable. Turning dwarf form mire into part of the attack chain instead of just a buff made almost the entire difference.
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Originally Posted by Agahnim
The "oh noes WS are overpowered" is pretty funny, since WS were originally thought of to be gimpy peacebringers back in the day.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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That's all fine and dandy but for now, with these changes, my Peacebringer won't see much action, if any. I have two Warshades I can enjoy the pancakes out of playing instead.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
FYI again, since people seem to be missing my answering this on page 1. Arbiter Hawk has stated they would like to make a Light Form customization option in the future if possible (and improve the current look), and then also make Solar Flare do the old foot stomp animation if you are in the ground. Both, however, require art and FX time, and those departments are currently swamped. So no ETA, just a basic "we've talked to art and FX and have ideas, but they're in the future." The same thing goes with the animation for shapeshifting: they want to shorten it, but need to adjust the FX to make it look right.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
This is why I don't play my PB anymore. Too much KB on a team character that teams don't want. Brilliant! 
Fixes take way too long. Just changing all the KB to KD means I can at least play my PB again. All this dust is sad. 
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I have been saying this for years.. I have directly emailed the Devs about this issue..
There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER why Solar Flare is totally different from every other incarnation of this power in the game.. I am a PB.. I have strong melee.. I use Solar Flare.. now every damn foe is out of my melee range.. yay... I am a PB.. I have Solar Flare.. I use it on teams.. It scatters folks in every direction.. People HATE that on teams.. So basically on a team I NEVER USE THE POWER..thats a great solution... Pulsar a weak stun that takes waaaaaay to long to animate.. I wouldnt mind the animation if the stun was a mag 3 but it isnt and GP as already pointed out it is WEAKER than the Warshade AoE Mez power and they should have SOME balance. And to say they are worried about PB's becoming overpowered is utterly ridiculous. Overpowered compared to what ?? The Warshade which is already way better ?? The VEAT's???? Come on please.. stop.... |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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o.o I might be sick.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
For some reason when you said "Kheldian Surprise" I thought of this...
 |
So kudos!
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I always thought the whole idea was Peacebringers were consistent, Warshades had a higher theoretical max that took a lot of effort or circumstance to bring about. Scrappers vs. Brutes.
I wouldn't object to a slightly higher DPS as it does feel somewhat anemic, but I may be one of the few who actually enjoy the KB instead of the "TURN IT ALL INTO KNOCKDOWN!" crowd winning out. My first 50 was an energy/dev blaster; I'm used to dealing with knockback. It's a valuable soft control and a Peacebringer is in a unique position to take advantage of actual knockback thanks to their ranged attack ability. (It makes some sense to turn the dwarf attacks to knockdown since they don't have any range, mind you.)
Yes, this means you have to run around a bit and strategize a bit instead of going into scrapperlock and hitting 1, 2, 3, 4 over and over for best results. You used to have to play a character to 50, even now you have to play to 20. You should have figured that stuff out by then.
That said, I won't be massively annoyed if they did turn it all to knockdown; I imagine the Kinetic Combat sets I have slotted would be enough to turn it into knockback again anyway 
and other people would be happy. But while I'm all for quality-of-life fixes to get rid of needless tedium (toggles staying on when stunned!) I'm less anxious to homogenize every possible difference and killing off lines of tactical possibility in the name of making everything work like everything else.
That said, I'd love to see a couple other of the human-form powers made usable in dwarf in nova as Light Form was, simply to make the human-form picks play more of a role in a build. Even without giving Photon Seekers multiple modes, the ability to summon them in any form would be quite handy - giving Dwarves a bit of range, Novas another 'nuke', while still working well as a crashless mini-nuke for humans.
wow i cant believe they used an idea similar to what i suggested lol.. ive been saying for a long time change build up to rage and then change light form to mog lol..
Not exactly similar but i like it..
You the devs are the best people in my life right now.. and i thank you for this change.. this change and this change alone can prob .. will prob keep me on this game for years to come...
Now they really going to hate us in pvp 
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I had an idea... Why dont they add an immob to Proton Scatter and rename it Proton Anchor. By doing this, it will allow players to immob before doing an all KB attack chain and the targets will not be KB everywhere. This way all the players that like kb will still have it and all the players that dont can just immob first. This way everyone is happy.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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Thats one way to look at it, but another is penalizing the players who dont want KB by forcing them to take a particular power for immob...when if they just changed KB to KD, the players who want the knockback only have to slot a single knockback enhancement to gain back the knockback...|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
I had an idea... Why dont they add an immob to Proton Scatter and rename it Proton Anchor. By doing this, it will allow players to immob before doing an all KB attack chain and the targets will not be KB everywhere. This way all the players that like kb will still have it and all the players that dont can just immob first. This way everyone is happy.
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Smallest harm is forcing the one knockback enhancement rather than forcing an entire power choice.
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I keep arguing for more changes as well. Peacebringers in particular had so many powers that did not synch up or perform well that a lot of changing is needed. If Warshades are seen as balanced or at least competitive with other ATs (which I assume they are, given they have sat as they are and are now getting a few tweaks), then that is why I keep comparing to them for Peacebringers. Light Form and Inner Light seem roughly equivalent and competitive, though it seems that Photon Seekers still aren't going to cut the mustard with how they currently sit.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Pilgrim, if you truly feel it is balanced as is, I can get behind it. But I don't think its current level of power should be an excuse to let the abysmal damage or other problems be overlooked though. The other changes are a massive step in the right direction, but they are not fixed yet, as Joes numbers demonstrate.I still want some psi resist
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I don't know if they need to recharge faster and do similar damage to Shield Charge, or what. I kind of like the longer recharge and heavier hit, but maybe performance would be better that way.
But certainly Solar Flare and Pulsar are not on par with Warshades. The suggestions I keep fighting for aren't overpowering, but balancing. Currently, they underperform compared to other ATs, and they're less useful for a Peacebringer because of how they work.
For Psi resists, I think I mostly would just want that in Dwarf Form. Psi damage is all over in the 40+ game and the trials we have, which does make it harder to Tank in Dwarf for your teammates.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
I'm a little wary of any promises to improve animation times. Last time a dev said that about a powerset needing faster animations but the animators were busy (Castle concerning Wormhole and Propel), absolutely nothing came of it.
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We should be sure to keep reminding them of what is needed in that department, however, just to be sure it happens. Just don't be annoying about it: remind them periodically (and not every day).
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
That's all fine and dandy but for now, with these changes, my Peacebringer won't see much action, if any. I have two Warshades I can enjoy the pancakes out of playing instead.
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Originally Posted by AliasiSudonomo
I always thought the whole idea was Peacebringers were consistent, Warshades had a higher theoretical max that took a lot of effort or circumstance to bring about. Scrappers vs. Brutes.
I wouldn't object to a slightly higher DPS as it does feel somewhat anemic, but I may be one of the few who actually enjoy the KB instead of the "TURN IT ALL INTO KNOCKDOWN!" crowd winning out. My first 50 was an energy/dev blaster; I'm used to dealing with knockback. It's a valuable soft control and a Peacebringer is in a unique position to take advantage of actual knockback thanks to their ranged attack ability. (It makes some sense to turn the dwarf attacks to knockdown since they don't have any range, mind you.) |
Smiling Joe, your one post is a bit too difficult to quote and respond to with all of the above as well, heh. Anyway, the previous paragraph is why I asked how you are getting your human form Peacebringer AOE numbers. Yes, Peacebringers technically have a lot of AOEs in human form, however, they ALL do KB, meaning you can at most stack two of them before the KB spreads them so far out that you're no longer hitting them all. It's not really sustainable, and also, I would never recommend taking the ranged AOE attacks to a Peacebringer player. Their damage is anemic and the KB doesn't mesh well with the far better melee attacks you have.
Now for this: "Not to mention that the anemic damage is balanced against an inherent that gives us - among other things - more damage. In fact, it's possible to cap damage with the inherent, slotting and build up/mire. A better solution than direct damage IMHO would be then to nerf the inherent in favor of direct damage boosts to the powers themselves. Not the damage modifier, because that would bring our modifier too high in relation to other archetypes."
I rather wonder if giving a damage boost to the inherent while we are solo or on a small team (like Vigilance) might not be a simpler way of doing this. But having the powers be stronger on their own to make for more consistent performance (while weakening the damage boost from the inherent), as you said, probably would be more useful and the better way to go.
Your Fiery Embrace style suggestion for Seekers is interesting as well. Seems like it would be another way to make them competitive with Dark Extraction (because I would still say Warshades are the balancing point at the very least).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
Thats one way to look at it, but another is penalizing the players who dont want KB by forcing them to take a particular power for immob...when if they just changed KB to KD, the players who want the knockback only have to slot a single knockback enhancement to gain back the knockback...
Smallest harm is forcing the one knockback enhancement rather than forcing an entire power choice. |
True... I also realized that the damage mitigation from a KD is better than an immob. The NPCs can still attack if immob. They cant attack if they are on their butts. That is one reason I dont like KB and rather have KD. I can knock the NPC on their butts with Solar Flare; however they are all over the map. The next time I hit Solar Flare they are outside the radius of the attack and I am not able maintain my damage mitigation.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Quote:
This kinda brings us back to the thread in the kheld forums talking about our problem BEING our inherent...and the more we talk the more I'm starting to agree...|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Now for this: "Not to mention that the anemic damage is balanced against an inherent that gives us - among other things - more damage. In fact, it's possible to cap damage with the inherent, slotting and build up/mire. A better solution than direct damage IMHO would be then to nerf the inherent in favor of direct damage boosts to the powers themselves. Not the damage modifier, because that would bring our modifier too high in relation to other archetypes."
I rather wonder if giving a damage boost to the inherent while we are solo or on a small team (like Vigilance) might not be a simpler way of doing this. But having the powers be stronger on their own to make for more consistent performance (while weakening the damage boost from the inherent), as you said, probably would be more useful and the better way to go. |
We just get too much of what we already have from it. Both AT's will trivially cap their resistance even without the inherent providing anything, damage wont be too hard either with a teams normal buffs and the like, the mez prot for controllers/dominators is so anemic it might as well not even be there...
Maybe we should be looking for an overhaul of our inherent, it wouldn't require any animation work unless we got loopy and tried to push to turn it into a clicky or something.
One thing touched on above that WOULD give White Dwarf more relevance is the addition of Psi Resistance JUST TO WHITE DWARF. That alone would be more than enough reason to have dwarf in the build IMHO.
And I do believe it is our inherent that has the developers worrying about overpowering us.
But one thing I want to mention - and should have made clear from the start - I am *very* aware that we were promised changes "sometime after I-21" and instead got an early present in the form of what look to be incremental changes. Regardless of any misgivings I might have about what was done, I am thrilled and grateful that anything at all could be done within the given time frame, and my thanks goes out to Arbiter Hawk and company for that. And to Grey Pilgrim for taking the impossible position of... well... arbiter (little "a").
And if the current changes did turn out to be all we got, I'd respec into human form and be fairly happy.
But I'd still push for something for the forms! 
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Changing KB for KD would fix lots of the underperforming problems of the PBs.
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How so? Peacebringers would still be doing less damage and won't be any more survivable.|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
Changing KB for KD would fix lots of the underperforming problems of the PBs.
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In fact, given that knockback provides a healthy amount of personal soft mitigation, they would be less survivable.
Ask to change kb to kd because it annoys you, but arguing that it will magically fix our performance issues isn't going to hold water.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Another way to keep forms relevant, give them a buff aura...+Dmg/proc dmg for Dwarf, +Res/Def/regen/etc for nova (Switch em on WS's if you wanna keep the mirroring stuff) only to our allies. Something we bring to the TEAM but don't get ourselves.
| One thing touched on above that WOULD give White Dwarf more relevance is the addition of Psi Resistance JUST TO WHITE DWARF. That alone would be more than enough reason to have dwarf in the build IMHO. |
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Not really sure if you're serious or not. Changing Solar Flare to KD would by itself greatly increase the AoE damage potential of Peacebringers. The ability to use Solar Flare then immediately follow up with Detonation would help a lot.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
How so? Peacebringers would still be doing less damage and won't be any more survivable.
In fact, given that knockback provides a healthy amount of personal soft mitigation, they would be less survivable. Ask to change kb to kd because it annoys you, but arguing that it will magically fix our performance issues isn't going to hold water. |
Not to mention the ability to leverage solar flare in teams.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Just had another thought. If they change Solar Flare to a KD and you lead with Solar Flare then follow up with Luminous Detonation, then you once again spread out the mob. Luminous Detonation is a KB as well. Once again we are back to where we started with KB ruining the grouping. Should all the KB be changed to a KD?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Not really sure if you're serious or not. Changing Solar Flare to KD would by itself greatly increase the AoE damage potential of Peacebringers. The ability to use Solar Flare then immediately follow up with Detonation would help a lot.
Not to mention the ability to leverage solar flare in teams. |
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
This is what I would like to see happen.
KD/KB Peacebringer power (Human Form)
- Gleaming Blast - Keep it a Knockback
- Radiant Strike - Keep it a Knockback
- Luminous Detonation - Change Knockback to Knockdown
- Incandescent Strike - Keep it a Knockdown
- Solar Flare - Change Knockback to Knockdown
- Photon Seekers - Keep it a Knockback
- Dawn Strike - Keep it a Knockback
Gleaming blast and Radiant Strike are not to bad as a KB since it is only a single target and it will not spread out the whole mob when on a team. Luminous Detonation and Solar Flare change to a KD for all the reasons mention throughout this thread. Photon Seekers are nice with the new changes but is not considered a spammable attack chain power and can remain a KB. Dawn Strike is a Great Oh Crap Button, but will not kill the mob in one hit so it will work better IMHO by using Solar Flare w/ KD, Luminous Detonation w/ KD, then Dawn Strike w/KB as the finisher.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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I do that now. So long as they haven't traveled outside the radius of the follow-up power it still hits, regardless of where they are when the damage is applied. Photon Seekers --> Dawn Strike would never be a possible combo otherwise.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Not really sure if you're serious or not. Changing Solar Flare to KD would by itself greatly increase the AoE damage potential of Peacebringers. The ability to use Solar Flare then immediately follow up with Detonation would help a lot.
Not to mention the ability to leverage solar flare in teams. |
And even if you could continue AoE damaging a knocked down spawn with a third and even a fourth attack it still wouldn't even come close to bringing us up to par on the damage scale, so arguing that changing knockback to knockdown would solve all or even the majority of our problems (which was the post I was responding to) is a straw man argument that scapegoats knockback for what are in reality a number of problems that need addressed.
It won't solve even half our problems.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Just a few notes. Inner Light, Light Form and Essence Boost and Hasten I have made perma in a build. I'm hardcapped to all damage types sans toxic and psi. I have 35 S/L defense. Now if only solar flare was KD I'd so make that.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
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