Again so it's clear the ONLY change I'd agree with is if they made Nova as strong as a blaster, and dwarf as strong as a tank.
Random idea: Put it on a 180 minute timer for both if need be. Have it be something each form can click that boosts their respective damage and defense, gives Nova defiance and gives a taunt aura to dwarf if need be.
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i just wanted to say after specifically rebuilding, and playing a peacebringer on the beta server that the buffs are almost hilarious in how much of a joke they are.
at firsthand glance they seem great because you're running capped resist, and 40%-115% damage (with IOs) all the time alongside having 30+% defense through IOs are stuff.
the issue is that the crash in light form is really, REALLY significant. even with permanent light form that small gap for the animation of light form playing will get you iced faster than before, alongside losing the majority of your health/endurance if you're not sitting at full (and in my case, i rarely am as i chug end like CRAZY since peacebringer powers happen to cost a ton of endurance alongside the several toggles that are run for defense)
so you'll be trucking along barely able to damage enemies (because a constant 40% buff to damage is still worthless to weak/slow attacks) when whoops your light form crashed and you don't have any endurance also you're being held now whoops you're dead
also the mez protection is pretty much only barely useful since it's a whopping 3 points which means once you run into any of the higher level groups in any significant number you get held/stunned/mezzed and die anyways. thank god in my respec i took dwarf fo- oh wait no light form just crashed again welp i'm dead
Quote:
... in your opinion. I find it perfectly useful and suited just right for each form. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
NO.
AS a PB player I DO NOT pick a form and stick to it, especially since the dwarf form has a USEFUL form of the footstomp that is completely USELESS in human form. |
Knockdown in the form with higher resists and hit points that's designed to tank and has only a very few attacks, 100% of which are melee.
Knockback in the form (human) that isn't, pushing enemies out of the more-dangerous melee range and making them take longer to get up as you take advantage of your mobility and RANGED attacks.
Makes sense. Unless there are some ranged attacks in Dwarf I've been missing since issue 4. Or maybe more shields in human? Oh, there aren't?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by airhammer
SURPRISE you still suck.. you just suck a little less..
|
Quote:
| They have been dogmatically STUBBORN about Solar Flare for some stupid reason even though EVERY OTHER INCARNATION OF THE SAME POWER IN THE GAME does KNOCKDOWN.... |
Gee. Imagine that. Wonder why they might think the (lower HP, lower resist, no inherent defense) PB Human form might want to do something to get multiple enemies out of range in a way that takes them out of the fight for longer and puts them into (typically less damaging mob attack) ranged versus melee mode... hmmmm....
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by tabcef
so you'll be trucking along barely able to damage enemies (because a constant 40% buff to damage is still worthless to weak/slow attacks) when whoops your light form crashed and you don't have any endurance also you're being held now whoops you're dead
|
Then again, I know what it's like to REALLY "barely damage enemies" - I've run an Earth/FF and Ice/Emp to 50 on SOs, after all.
IN general:
The ONLY way I'd support changing this to Knockdown would really be via an alternate power - that basically is a PBAOE placed Liquefy, essentially - meaning it continues over time. Why? Survivability. I use the time and distance I get from the knockback to stay alive and let me concentrate on the higher risk targets. Going to knockDOWN in footstomp removes that.
Creating that would likely lower the damage you'd otherwise get, but it's also thematically a good place to put in a stun to stack with Pulsar.
Quote:
i personally love the change because i only pvp with my pb and do trials but i have to agree that the crash is horrible.. especially since we are running 9 toggles.. no crash or a wp type crash with just half your endurance going down would be great.. but a heavy crash like that is just annoying.|
Originally Posted by Tabcef
i just wanted to say after specifically rebuilding, and playing a peacebringer on the beta server that the buffs are almost hilarious in how much of a joke they are.
at firsthand glance they seem great because you're running capped resist, and 40%-115% damage (with IOs) all the time alongside having 30+% defense through IOs are stuff. the issue is that the crash in light form is really, REALLY significant. even with permanent light form that small gap for the animation of light form playing will get you iced faster than before, alongside losing the majority of your health/endurance if you're not sitting at full (and in my case, i rarely am as i chug end like CRAZY since peacebringer powers happen to cost a ton of endurance alongside the several toggles that are run for defense) so you'll be trucking along barely able to damage enemies (because a constant 40% buff to damage is still worthless to weak/slow attacks) when whoops your light form crashed and you don't have any endurance also you're being held now whoops you're dead also the mez protection is pretty much only barely useful since it's a whopping 3 points which means once you run into any of the higher level groups in any significant number you get held/stunned/mezzed and die anyways. thank god in my respec i took dwarf fo- oh wait no light form just crashed again welp i'm dead |
I LOVE THE BUFF.. BUT JUST TWEAK THE CRASH IN OUR FAVOR A LIL PLEASE
also while we are fixing pb.. how about some end recovery resistance in shields.. being of light but we can have our end sucked out..
Freedom:
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Quote:
From a set of numbers resulting from a flawed equation. In other words, I'm wrong. After the excitement of seeing my favorite archetype receiving a buff finally wore off, I got some sleep and looked at my numbers again. One factor was missing in the new weighted build up equation for Bright Nova, resulting in making it appear that it had less damage potential than it had.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Okay, I've seen you say this here, and then elsewhere say that human form's AOEs are as good as Nova's. Where are you getting that info?
|
Um... sorry? 'Cause the numbers were really skewed as a result. REALLY skewed.
Originally I posted that Nova's Single Target Damage Potential was 88 dps. With the correct formula in place that number now sits at 101 dps (which is still 16 dps below the human form's score of 117). Where the AoE potential before the correction was 173 dps, it's now more correctly stated as 196 dps (compared against the human form's 170)
So. To Flux Vector and Grey Pilgrim: my bad. To the developers: really sorry about that.
Great. Now I have to go back and edit all my posts with the correct data. Stupid, stupid Joe.
HOWEVER, I do think Nova should have more damage potential than that. My reasoning is that a Nova can cap its damage much, much quicker than human form. My wish for Nova form is that the 45% damage boost be removed and a balanced amount of that damage be added directly to the attacks. That way Cosmic Balance won't cap Nova's damage potential quite so easily.
Quote:
| Also, to respond to the above, Solar Flare would up a Peacebringer's damage and survivability. Pulsar and human form's best two attacks are all melee ranged, meaning Solar Flare scatters them away from your best follow up powers. If Solar Flare did KD, you could use your best AOE power, and follow it up with either some direct mitgation or your best damage. |
That being said, the KB in Solar Flare doesn't bother me one way or the other. I'm just not seeing how KD would give human form that much extra damage potential.
Quote:
| Arbiter Hawk has explicitly stated that he did not want to make Solar Flare KD at this time, because it might overpower Peacebringers after the other changes on Test. I do not deny that it would improve our performance, but I do disagree that it would overpower Peacebringers. It would bring them more up to level with Warshades and other ATs, as well as allowing their powers to work together more effectively. |
How ironic.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
oh just tested in rwz the old scrapper challenge.. and i can officially say a all human io'd out full incarnate pb can complete the old scrapper challenge..
that's lvl 54 mob with 2 lvl 54 bosses in group with no insp and no lore pets (if i took them out it would be alot easier).. and i did not get mezzed with two mentalist..
I like the change.. just tweak the crash and we got a winner..
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Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
Quote:
...for human form.|
Originally Posted by IronAlex
I like the change.. just tweak the crash and we got a winner..
|
That being said, give Nova comparable direct damage to the powers in lieu of the 45% damage boost and give Dwarf Psi resistance and I'd have MUCH less opinion.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
yeah.. the forms should be updated now.. since there locked out of everything else.. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
...for human form.
That being said, give Nova comparable direct damage to the powers in lieu of the 45% damage boost and give Dwarf Psi resistance and I'd have MUCH less opinion. |
what changes the pb needs now imho
Raise nova dmg.
Increase dwarf HP and raise dmg
and change toggles so that they suppress when changed ..
thats my opinion of course.
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Quote:
I believe the rationale the devs gave on stealth suppression when they implemented it was that stealth powers which were part of a "Defensive" power set, like Dark Armor, would retain their defense bonus, while stealth powers which were not, such as power pool Stealth, would drop to half values when perceived.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Thanks for noting this is a bug. I assumed it was like Stealth and supposed to half suppress. I honestly do not play Warshades much (mine is stalled in the early 20s), so I would never have noticed this.
|
Quote:
try this against +4 malta, carnies, knives or circle|
Originally Posted by IronAlex
oh just tested in rwz the old scrapper challenge.. and i can officially say a all human io'd out full incarnate pb can complete the old scrapper challenge..
that's lvl 54 mob with 2 lvl 54 bosses in group with no insp and no lore pets (if i took them out it would be alot easier).. and i did not get mezzed with two mentalist.. I like the change.. just tweak the crash and we got a winner.. |
heck, try this against +0 of any of those groups (at x8)
you are gonna be glad you took that dwarf form
and then not so glad when your light form crashes
it's kinda funny that the old scrapper challenge is the only baseline pbs can function at with full IO slotting when nowadays a scrapper would tear through them like paper. i really don't like the idea that these buffs are the only ones PBs are getting, nor do i like the idea that they bring peacebringers on par with any other archetype (because they don't).
they're not even close to enough to bringing PBs to any acceptably playable level to anyone outside of fanatics like everyone posting in this thread.
YO HOW DO YOU RECORD VIDEOS IN COH AGAIN..?
just completed another scrapper challeng this time with 3 bossees
chief mesmerist lvl54
and 2 chief soldiers lvl 54..
But this time i had to use geas.. to get light form perma.. that mesmerist was kicking my butt..
took out comm officer first.. then.. nuked the group.. let out seekers.. then started working on mesmerist. seekers again then soldiers..
human form pb is BOOOSSSS NOW!!!
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Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
Quote:
Yes, the developers have finally admitted something I've long suspected to be true. KB, especially in AoEs, is used to rein in damage. Hawk stated point blank that they won't change Solar Flare at this time because they believe that it would provide too much AoE damage in the PB toolkit. Which really is quite obvious. Why are Electric/Shields and Fire/Shield characters so unbelievably potent? Because they can take out whole spawns with two AoEs back to back. No scatter, no loss in mitigation, no loss in damage.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Wait, what? Knockback has always been sold to us as a mitigation tool that we should learn to use and be happy about. In other words, it's there to make us even more powerful through mitigation. Entire sets are based on knockback as a mitigation tool, but Arbiter Hawk's rationale of knockdown in solar flare making Peacebringers overpowered would seem to indicate that he views it - at least in this case - as a negative balancing factor. In other words, it's there to rein in our power.
How ironic. |
KB is a very fun power effect. But it is not and never will be as tactically useful as KD. Situationally, one could construct situations where KB is better. But on the whole, in most situations KD is better.
After Hawk posted that changing Solar Flare to KD would be too much of a BUFF for the devs to do right now, I pretty much gave up. I'm going to try and grind out my PB to 50 this weekend and then retire her.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tabcef
try this against +4 malta, carnies, knives or circle
heck, try this against +0 of any of those groups (at x8) you are gonna be glad you took that dwarf form and then not so glad when your light form crashes it's kinda funny that the old scrapper challenge is the only baseline pbs can function at with full IO slotting when nowadays a scrapper would tear through them like paper. i really don't like the idea that these buffs are the only ones PBs are getting, nor do i like the idea that they bring peacebringers on par with any other archetype (because they don't). they're not even close to enough to bringing PBs to any acceptably playable level to anyone outside of fanatics like everyone posting in this thread. |
SO true
scrappers nowadays would spit on the old scrapper challenge..
but just using as a baseline.. plus i think this is not the only change and more is comming in the next couple of issues.. someone said..
However you gotta admit its pretty big considering this is solo.. and on a team with full saturated cosmic challenge the scrapper challenge would be a joke even to a kheldian..
so im just saying we should be happy they didnt skip over us this issue.. and glad that they actually listen to the players on these changes.. some of us been calling for these changes for years literally..
Im not one to cheer on the devs.. you can look through my post history.. but im glad they did something..
Freedom:
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Quote:
So your definition of "Acceptably playable" is (from the situation mentioned, solo) +4 and/or x8 versus some of the harder groups in the game?|
Originally Posted by Tabcef
they're not even close to enough to bringing PBs to any acceptably playable level to anyone outside of fanatics like everyone posting in this thread.
|
Explains a lot. That's not "Acceptably playable." That's nowhere close to a realistic baseline.
You know what else would be neat?
Irradiate's alternate animation for Solar Flare.
In fact, it'd be even neater if we could pick alternate animations for Kheldian attacks, even if we can't (and shouldn't) colors.
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Quote:
Thank you for wording this so well. I have been trying to put down in words why this lack of change rankles me, and you've done it perfectly. I have said before that knockback is great mitigation... for enemies. Now the devs have flat out agreed: knockback, by design, is used to limit player damage.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yes, the developers have finally admitted something I've long suspected to be true. KB, especially in AoEs, is used to rein in damage.
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Quote:
yeah man i agree, a fully IO'd out peacebringer (talking billions in inf on a live server) shouldn't be able to perform at the same level as another character who has had that much spent on their character|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So your definition of "Acceptably playable" is (from the situation mentioned, solo) +4 and/or x8 versus some of the harder groups in the game?
Explains a lot. That's not "Acceptably playable." That's nowhere close to a realistic baseline. |
find me a powerset combination meant to do damage that's commonly played that after billions of inf spent of IOs on it that can't fight +0x8.
are you gonna contribute anything other picking out small statements to be smug with while completely misreading the context of whatever anyone posts
Quote:
I can do that right now with Photon Seekers/Dawn Strike, and BOTH powers deal massive knockback.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Why are Electric/Shields and Fire/Shield characters so unbelievably potent? Because they can take out whole spawns with two AoEs back to back. No scatter, no loss in mitigation, no loss in damage.
|
I also find it quite funny that the developers are worried about knockdown making Peacebringers do too much damage in a world where powers like Shield Charge and Lightning Rod can coexist with Judgement attacks that can decimate MULTIPLE SPAWNS with one cast (looking at you, Ionic Judgement).
True, my PB has a tier 4 judgement power (although I'm still wrapping my head around the logic that said Ioninc being autohit AND doing twice the damage of the other powers is balanced based on the chance - that was brought significantly down - that it might not jump to another mob).
But if they're okay with THOSE levels of damage, then why draw the line at something as silly and comparably inconsequential as changing the knockback in a mediocre aoe to knockdown?
O.o
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
no not saying it is.. and im sure with light form on in the regular servers i can prob do the same before light form ran out.. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So your definition of "Acceptably playable" is (from the situation mentioned, solo) +4 and/or x8 versus some of the harder groups in the game?
Explains a lot. That's not "Acceptably playable." That's nowhere close to a realistic baseline. |
but the changes accomplish alot of things such as knowing that the player base is being listen to.. if you look in the threads you can see people calling for these changes mainly.. so the devs are not only doing changes to the must ignored AT.. but listening to the player base's ideas..
and secondly they didnt take away anything in exchange.. well except for the lightform and the footstomp ... i actually like those.
and i agree with all that dwarf and nova still needs a boost.. and the inherant should be redone to give something solo..
but we still got something.. we kheldians got something.. i guess im just happy we got something.. lol
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Quote:
For all I know you screwed up your build. Or just don't click with PBs. |
Originally Posted by Tabcef
yeah man i agree, a fully IO'd out peacebringer (talking billions in inf on a live server) shouldn't be able to perform at the same level as another character who has had that much spent on their character
find me a powerset combination meant to do damage that's commonly played that after billions of inf spent of IOs on it that can't fight +0x8. are you gonna contribute anything other picking out small statements to be smug with while completely misreading the context of whatever anyone posts |
Regardless, that is *not a baseline* and not what *anything* should be argued from. Do you understand what a "Baseline" is? IO'd out at non-base settings is NOT baseline. I don't judge how a person's physical fitness by comparing them to bodybuilders, I don't judge how an average car should perform by comparing them to super-exotics - and I don't judge AT or powerset performance by unknown multi-billion IO builds that most people will never see. Or the "Scrapper challenge," for that matter. We're not playing scrappers. We're playing Peacebringers.
What I'm basically saying, to try to clarify, is that this whole side bit of IO'd this, scrapper-challenge-that, is not particularly helpful when determining the *base* of what should or should not be done. You're talking paint color and where to put a TV before a foundation is even finished, basically. Arguing about what can be done with X billion INF of IOs means, basically, *nothing* because that's not where AT or powerset performance is (or should be) determined.
Grab that PB, use another build to make a decent *SO* build, compare it to something else reasonable at the same level *with SOs* - since that's where everything's balanced around. (And yes, I did do this - when people were complaining Ramiel's arc was too hard, I was soloing it on SOs. On squishy ATs.) Will you be the same as a scrapper or tank? No. Will you be doing blaster damage? No. But that tank/scrapper isn't goign to have the ranged damage, and the blaster's not going to have your resists, heals and other survival tools.
Frankly, I think that gets lost sight of FAR too often in the SO-heavy min/maxed world of the forums (and moreso with those that'd go to test.)
Quote:
pretty sure they fixed the damage: also, the alternative is the power having a flat 1 in 20 chance of completely failing to work, which would be infinitely more frustrating.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
(although I'm still wrapping my head around the logic that said Ioninc being autohit AND doing twice the damage of the other powers is balanced based on the chance - that was brought significantly down - that it might not jump to another mob).
|
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Quote:
i love the double negative: "you either don't know how to play peacebringers or can't slot things out correctly, either way you are wrong in all cases"|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
For all I know you screwed up your build. Or just don't click with PBs.
|
c'mon man. you gotta understand that if they underperform at high-end levels they're also likely to underperform at standard levels too. the buffs that were given to PBs mostly shine at that high-end, where the major effects of being able to perma inner light and light form come into play, otherwise they're minor buffs for folks working with primarily SOs which isn't enough in that case since they're -minor- buffs on that end.
the idea of how a peacebringer should play should be variable as that's their schtick. but like i stated earlier it's important for peacebringers to be strong enough first to be able to branch out like that effectively, otherwise they're left in the dust by everything else. as of now they're not fulfilling that requirement.
Quote:
Depending on who I'm fighting, I have that now with Void Judgement.|
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
pretty sure they fixed the damage: also, the alternative is the power having a flat 1 in 20 chance of completely failing to work, which would be infinitely more frustrating.
|
It's actually really funny, and I've laughed out loud multiple times over it:
As an ancient history buff, the ITF is my favorite TF in the game. Many is the time lately that I"ve run first into a room full of spawns in the first mission only to have someone with Ionic cast it from the door and kill every. single. Roman. in the room before I can close on the first spawn.
Okay, fair's fair. Next room I know that player's judgement isn't recharged, so I jump in and hit my Tier 4 Void Judgement.
Miss! MISS! Miss! Miss! MISS!! Miss! Miss! Miss! Miss! Miss! MISSITY-Miss! Miss!
"Aw..... stupid Cimeroaran Phalanx Fighting."
Then the scrapper shield charges my spawn.
"Aw...."
Ya gotta admit there's no small amount of humor there. Right? Right??
I do still love that TF, though.
Okay, threadjack over. Nothing to see but dead Romans here.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
One of the problems with KB as a mitigation tool is randomness. Claws -> Shockwave is a fantastic positioning tool because you have actual control over the KB. I don't get how people are surprised about the devs sometimes using KB to lower performance because they already said that as a comparison of Shockwave to Repulsing Torrent. However, I feel that does a huge detriment to KB use as a whole. Radiant Strike loses out to Air Superiority because I just don't know if it'll be knocking the enemy on their back or not. I can change tactics if it's a sure thing. I am a little concerned about possible powerset favoritism that Shield Defense gets away with what it does. A conversation for another time.
I can pretend to understand not making the Mag 3 on Pulsar guaranteed (though I highly disagree with not doing it). What I don't get is not changing Incandescent Strike to stun for stacking. If something is trying to kill me, this is a full 6 seconds being used to control only one target. With this being melee range, the reward should be worth the risk. This also helps with parity between Peacebringer and Warshade crowd control.
Ultimately, this is the time to talk about how to make PB forms work with the PB instead of against: as Flux pointed out Warshade forms are part of a large trinity of power, constant changing being the core of their gameplay. PBs pick a form and stick to it, and are often penalized slightly for changing (loss of powers) or shoved so hard into a role, they've practically lost any reason to bother doing much but one or two things (dwarf). It's very possible that this could easily be balanced without needing to incorporate massive number changes, as this is almost certainly a mechanics problem and little more.
AS a PB player I DO NOT pick a form and stick to it, especially since the dwarf form has a USEFUL form of the footstomp that is completely USELESS in human form. Also I like being able to shift into nova and back to human and to dwarf as needed.
As I already stated form shifting was THE MAIN POINT of me created BOTH a PB and a Warshade. Make that less relevant to the AT, and I might as well roll another scrapper or blaster.
If they want to balance PBs to be as powerful as Warshades then they should do that by giving the appropriate buffs where needed (pulsar, the pets, nova, dwarf, and changing the human footstomp attack into being KD). They should not do it by gutting what makes the AT special.
Human form is NOT what makes the AT special, as there is NOTHING in human form that you can't get in other ATs.
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