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It is wrong if they go ahead and make the buffs then later on down the line NERF it.|
Originally Posted by theHaunt
The devs can worry about meeting cries for buffs and years and years of advocating rebalancing with the needs of the overall game. As an advocate of an underperforming AT, there's no shame in wanting your class to perform at low, middle, and high ends of the 'kitted out' spectrum that's comparable to the more powerful sets out there. The devs have the entire game to worry about, and as has been evidenced by the past several years, if there's a cog that's underperforming but it's not disrupting the rest of the game *that much*, they have other things to focus on. There's nothing wrong with arguing for the best and lowering your expectations *after* the devs meet you part of the way; that's just good negotiating. |
I'd rather they get it right the first time.
Trying to base anything on +4/x8 is NOT getting it right the first time.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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your argument is literally "oh no, what if they make peacebringers TOO strong"|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
It is wrong if they go ahead and make the buffs then later on down the line NERF it.
I'd rather they get it right the first time. Trying to base anything on +4/x8 is NOT getting it right the first time. |
seriously read that again
"what if they make peacebringers too strong?"
god forbid peacebringers are OP for whatever amount of time.
(peacebringer and OP in the same sentence? clearly this is bizzaro world)
stop saying "basing it on +4x8 is wrong!!", when that's obviously not the only vector they're going to use. however, it is a vector they have to consider because it exists in mass quantities within the game and is an accepted part of the system.
the fact that they haven't nerfed the several powerset combinations AND archetypes that can handle that level of play at various levels of enhancement should be telling enough that it's not something that the devs will nerf on a whim. hell, for a recent example look at the new fire armor: it's one of the powersets that can now do +4x8 without difficulty on the high-end AND it got a buff recently. you don't see fire armor people crying out for nerfs after the changes nor did you see people who were advocates for fire armor changes being scared that they would nerf fire armor for the trillionth time.
you're still ignoring the high-end in prayer that the devs bring about a buff if you stick to peacebringers continuing to be awful as your line of discussion and using the hyperbole of +4x8 of shut down the existence of high-end gameplay rather than attempting to say that the devs should consider all ends of gameplay in the low, standard AND high sections.
edit: like i said earlier it's really obvious they already are too, or else the current power properties for light form or inner light wouldn't have the specific recharge times and tweaks they have. unless you believe that perma inner light/light form are completely accidental and unintended by the devs.
edit 2: of course none of this really contributes to the end discussion as none of us still have any idea of what constitutes as overpowered or underpowered when it comes to actual changes. i still like the idea of -res instead of -def and various small tweaks like the ones we got in this issue. they've already stated they don't want to change the inherent so that's probably out of the picture and a lot of the ideas right now seem like they would take a lot of work which probably isn't viable for them with the current workload they got for the new content.
Yes, again, to be completely blunt I'm not saying to "only consider +4x8 tier balance."
I'm saying, "Do not only consider the +0x1 tier. Consider all the tiers, from +0x1 through +4x8."
My emphasis on why the top tier needs to be added to the consideration is because of the way some posters try to deny that it should be considered at all. It's where the disagreement is. Nobody really disagrees that ATs should be playable at low difficulties, that's like disagreeing that babies shouldn't be fed to dingos. You can do it, but any reasonable person will dismiss you as a dangerous nut.
It's also likely (though not guaranteed) that a character capable of doing well with IOs in high tier play will be able to do well on SOs in low tier play, too. But doing well on SOs at the low end isn't as reliable a gauge of something growing enough with IOs at the high end, I've found (a decent example of this being the Willpower set, especially prior to the +defense set bonus changes).
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Seeing as how they think letting pulsar be better and not having the human flare attack not cause scatter is somehow earth shattering, I think they've pretty much stated what they think is or isn't overpowered.
With that said we're just arguing in circles, so I'll step out of this discussion.
Lastly, I'll state finally that the changes they need to make START with adjusting pulsar and changing the human flare attack from KB to KD.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
They are certainly aiming for Peacebringers to still not be worth *purchasing* at this point, as they won't be 'good'.
Still here, even after all this time!
Kheldian Surprise
Take 3 Kheldians and simmer lightly for 25 minutes. Sprinkle with chopped Defender and ground Corruptor. Garnish with Night Widow and Bane Spider.
Serves 8
Recommended with white wine.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
I'm going to *TRY* and be charitable at this point (yes, it's hard ... I know) and start from the assumption that Arbiter Hawk (and friends) had a specific set of adjustments to Peacebringers in mind, which they are going to be pushing through ... and that increasing the usefulness/utility of Pulsar (by defaulting it to a Mag 3 Stun) and Solar Flare (by defaulting it to KnockDOWN or KnockUP performance, instead of KnockBACK) simply wasn't in the "Changes Set" programmed for this round.
The *REAL* Flaw with Pulsar and Solar Flare is NOT a matter of problems aligned on the "WORKING as Intended" axis. That's because Pulsar and Solar Flare both "work" just fine game mechanically.
No ... that's not the problem.
The *REAL* problem is with with "Working as INTENDED" axis (note the different stress of ALL CAPS). That's because the *INTENT* for Pulsar and Solar Flare is POORLY DESIGNED (from pre-Issue 3!). It's not the "working" part that needs fixing ... it's the "INTENT" behind what makes them work.
The Kheldian Community, and those who play Peacebringers specifically, have essentially agreed that both Pulsar and Solar Flare are Underperforming Powers which are essentially crippled by the *INTENT* of their design from Issues 3 through 20. This is an issue that impinges upon Game Balance (as the Devs see it), and they are necessarily being cautious about making too many changes at once since that can cause Game Balance to "drift" out of alignment in unforeseen ways. My guess is that the Powers Balance Team wants to proceed cautiously with their analysis of the currently scheduled changes before tacking on any additional ones, which could potentially "muddy" their datamining analysis of the changes they're already making.
Which is a long winded way of saying that any changes to Pulsar and Solar Flare (the way that Players are clamoring for here) almost certainly weren't "scheduled" for the launch of Issue 21 ... meaning that there has been no resources/time allocated and budgeted to proofing/testing/QA-ing/etc. any changes to Pulsar and Solar Flare. If I want to be *charitable* to the Powers Team Devs, I have to suspect that any pushback on updating Pulsar and Solar Flare from the Devs is caused more by a matter of "scheduling" than by a matter of "there's nothing wrong here, no fix needed."
That said ... I think it would profit EVERYONE (Powers Team, VIPs and future Players) if someone like Arbiter Hawk, or Synapse, or *someone* on the Powers Team, were to come here to the Discussion Forum and lay out the reasons-and-rationale for why keeping Pulsar and Solar Flare "as is" for Peacebringers is a Wise Move. I say that because if the problem for these powers is a mistake of INTENT, then it would be very helpful to have an Audit And Analysis of that INTENT where Players (and Beta Testers) can see it, participate in it, and come away with a better appreciation and understanding of where the Devs are coming from, rather than just assuming that We The Players always know what's best for the game.
So I invite Synapse, or Arbiter Hawk, or whoever is willing to DISCUSS this with the Peacebringer Community, the Design INTENT behind Pulsar and Solar Flare, as presently configured in Issue 20 ... and how (and why!) that INTENT may be inadequate/flawed in the game going forward into Issue 21, and beyond. If you can't *DO* anything about Pulsar and Solar Flare in time for Issue 21 Launch ... what about "during" Issue 21? What about Issue 22 ... or Issue 23? If it's a "scheduling issue" preventing changing these powers ... what can *WE* the Players do to convince Second Measure (or whoever controls the scheduling for you) to get these Powers put "into the schedule" for review?
In short ... Help Us Help You.
That *is* what Beta Testing (and feedback) is for ... or so I'm led to believe ...
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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These two changes are not game breaking and wouldnt break the AT. It amazes me that two simple changes that the community is crying about hasnt been responded to AT ALL. My PB will remain on the shelf..
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Seeing as how they think letting pulsar be better and not having the human flare attack not cause scatter is somehow earth shattering, I think they've pretty much stated what they think is or isn't overpowered.
With that said we're just arguing in circles, so I'll step out of this discussion. Lastly, I'll state finally that the changes they need to make START with adjusting pulsar and changing the human flare attack from KB to KD. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Lies! Beta testing is only about word-of-mouth promotion and looking at new shinies early! |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
In short ... Help Us Help You.
That *is* what Beta Testing (and feedback) is for ... or so I'm led to believe ... |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I think the one thing we all can agree on is that we at least should get a dialogue going between the players and the devs on this.
Talk to us! We don't bite...unless you're into that sorta thing...
Just talk to us about this.
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Well... I did cure a friend of saying "bite me" all the time by doing so (and claiming I was just following directions). |
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Talk to us! We don't bite...unless you're into that sorta thing...
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I haven't figured out how to get it to work via the internet though, so I think the devs are safe.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I'm going to PM Avatea to create a Kheldian Powers thread in the Beta Feedback Forum. Methinks that matters such as this should not be confined to a "Discussion" forum.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
This is Arbiter Hawk's last post from the closed beta forums (I'm assuming that is okay and apologize if it isn't). I would keep in mind that all the developers seem to be much less chatty in open beta than they are in closed, and Arbiter Hawk posted only twice in the Kheldian thread in closed beta.
Those discussing things in closed beta have already responded to the post below. I pretty much disagree entirely with the reasoning about Pulsar and Solar Flare, but I hope that he can see it is still needed after the new changes have been around a little more. As great as the current changes are, they still don't fix the many wonky issues Peacebringers have in their performance.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Hey all,
I wanted to pop in here and touch on some of the feedback you’ve left: -Light Form: We went into this change with several goals. We wanted to make Light Form a power that could be used across forms, much like Eclipse can be for Warshades. Changing the appearance then became necessary to fix a bug with Light Form which was essentially allowing you to exploit all powers that should root you. -As for just making you invisible when you use the power, we tried it, and discovered odd interactions between transparency and costume shifting – you’d be a puffball when you first used the power, then you’d shift to Dwarf and back to Human and then you’d be visible again. We still want to update this at some point in the future, but it's something the powers team will need to work with the art team on. -We cannot give the old Light Form as a customization option at this time. It's not a question of using different FX when the power activates, it's a question of fundamentals in the game's animation system. I talked to Tunnel Rat about this issue today and she said she will look into ways to try to fix this, but we don’t have an immediate timeframe for you guys on this.-Solar Flare - Not going to change knockback into knockdown at this time. While many of you are saying “It should do what Foot Stomp does!”, Peacebringers have more AoE damage potential than Super Strength characters. When looking at the PB’s whole toolkit as a unit, rather than at individual powers, we think they’re in pretty good shape after the changes that have already been made. -While several posters were correct that it is possible within our powers system to give a power different animations based on whether the power user is in flight or on the ground, it does require additional art time not in the schedule at the moment. -In order to let it be used in the air, the animation had to change – footstomp just doesn't look believable in the air. -Dwarf Flare needs to be useable in air. Dwarf only has three attack powers, and can't avoid hovering when using its travel power – we don’t think it feels fun to teleport into a group of NPCs, attempt to aggro them, and just not be able to do anything about it. -Human form Solar Flare being useable in the air mitigates the longstanding complaint about the inherent contradiction of giving PBs fly and then giving them powers that can't be used off the ground.-Pulsar - While this power may be underperforming, we’ve made substantial and significant power increases available to PBs in the current build. This is something we’ll continue to evaluate and would consider tweaking up if PBs need help in the future. -Inherents - We understand many players would like the Vigilance treatment to their inherents. The Kheldian inherent powers are central enough to the AT that changing them is something that could potentially pose significant risk. Because of this, we’re not currently planning on adjusting them. -Shapeshifting time - We've heard this note echoed many times in the Kheldian community, and we attempted to tweak the activation times of the form powers in this power revamp. However, without adjusting the actual animations, nothing we tried ended up looking good. From a gameplay perspective, we'd like to get these down to 1.5 seconds or below, so hopefully we can tweak the animations to speed them up in the future. -Arbiter Hawk |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Oh man you're killing me here.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Peacebringers have more AoE damage potential than Super Strength characters.
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Forum mod: less obtrusive signatures
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lolwut?
| -Solar Flare - Not going to change knockback into knockdown at this time. While many of you are saying “It should do what Foot Stomp does!”, Peacebringers have more AoE damage potential than Super Strength characters. When looking at the PB’s whole toolkit as a unit, rather than at individual powers, we think they’re in pretty good shape after the changes that have already been made. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I don't even know what to say to that post. It's like a huge disconnect between what I have seen, experienced and heard others talk about, and what Arbiter Hawk thought PBs needed.
yeaaaaaap, that's why i have absolutely no hope whatsoever of peacebringers getting buffed out of their joke status.
the reasoning behind 'more aoe damage potential than super strength' is probably factoring in the nuke, photon seekers etc. without thinking that foot stomp can be buffed significantly while also having less cooldown, and more function since it does knockdown (allowing for chained footstomps).
of course that's almost as dumb as "peacebringers does more damage than super strength" so i guess it's not really a difference either way.
like almost nothing in there really addresses actual issues with peacebringers, and as the past three or four pages of the thread have shown the insane disconnect has been really harmful to the discussion for peacebringer buffs.
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not to mention that everything that can use SS also has access to fireball and double stacked rage. but PBs have more AoE damage potential? i'd really like to see whatever numbers the devs are using to get to that conclusion.
| the reasoning behind 'more aoe damage potential than super strength' is probably factoring in the nuke, photon seekers etc. without thinking that foot stomp can be buffed significantly while also having less cooldown, and more function since it does knockdown (allowing for chained footstomps). |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Arbiter Hawk needs to lay off the Cole-Aid. Seriously. 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I dont know why, but I was hopeful. I little piece of me just died when i read that :'(
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Thank you for posting that Grey Pilgrim. I seriously hope it's not something you get in trouble for since while it can be disappointing, it has a fair amount of insight to the thought process and we'd be better served to see how the discussion progresses.
I found the comment on looking at things as a whole rather interesting since in a lot of ways it seems like they actually aren't doing that, especially compared to other sets. As noted, double stacked Rage, damage boosting defense sets like Shield Defense/Fiery Aura, and high damage epic pools all contribute to push Foot Stomp's damage up. In a way, it seems like Solar Flare is being viewed in a vacuum as opposed to "out in the field" so to speak. In theory it's high damage if enemies get knocked into a corner and kept there but they have to get there first. I'm generally pro KB but don't feel this is being handled well.
I'm somewhat forgiving about Pulsar since it was noted that it's underperforming yet the devs wanted to err on the side of caution due to the other buffs. My concern is that they are being TOO cautious and in the wrong way, especially since I think Pulsar is the power among the two more in need of a buff. I mean, to actually acknowledge that a power is underperforming yet not do anything to buff it when it's a strength/numbers problem (as opposed to animation) feels like folly.
I think the bigger concern is that it almost feels like we as testers aren't fully being trusted. Granted, things like the AE farm explosion happened so trusting the players may seem unwise. However, this is Beta--a controled environment where changes can be reverted if they look overpowering. The majority of us want to help out but we can't do that if we're got being given the chance.
Makes me wonder what they are thinking if they believe that PBs are skirting the ragged edge of being overpowered such that they couldn't bear to change a KB into a KD.
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I don't see why it would be an issue, as it was an open post in the closed beta and the thinking still applies here. Arbiter Hawk has also said the same to me and others in PMs. Much better to quote it here than have me and others keep paraphrasing what he said. I just wanted to mind my Ps and Qs and not have a dev be annoyed with me for posting it. I honestly can't see the issue.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Thank you for posting that Grey Pilgrim. I seriously hope it's not something you get in trouble for since while it can be disappointing, it has a fair amount of insight to the thought process and we'd be better served to see how the discussion progresses.
I found the comment on looking at things as a whole rather interesting since in a lot of ways it seems like they actually aren't doing that, especially compared to other sets. As noted, double stacked Rage, damage boosting defense sets like Shield Defense/Fiery Aura, and high damage epic pools all contribute to push Foot Stomp's damage up. In a way, it seems like Solar Flare is being viewed in a vacuum as opposed to "out in the field" so to speak. In theory it's high damage if enemies get knocked into a corner and kept there but they have to get there first. I'm generally pro KB but don't feel this is being handled well. I'm somewhat forgiving about Pulsar since it was noted that it's underperforming yet the devs wanted to err on the side of caution due to the other buffs. My concern is that they are being TOO cautious and in the wrong way, especially since I think Pulsar is the power among the two more in need of a buff. I mean, to actually acknowledge that a power is underperforming yet not do anything to buff it when it's a strength/numbers problem (as opposed to animation) feels like folly. I think the bigger concern is that it almost feels like we as testers aren't fully being trusted. Granted, things like the AE farm explosion happened so trusting the players may seem unwise. However, this is Beta--a controled environment where changes can be reverted if they look overpowering. The majority of us want to help out but we can't do that if we're got being given the chance. |
I also have the feeling that Arbiter Hawk is being extremely cautious. I have said more than once that I applaud this, as I don't want things on Live given to us and taken away, but I think he's being overly cautious. That quote above especially confuses me when it mentions AOE damage. I noted this in the closed beta forums, as I'm not seeing how Peacebringers are monsters of AOE damage. Their two ranged AOEs are weak and do KB, and our one good PbAOE is hamstrung by doing KB. Photon Seekers is nice, but still on a long recharge, and the nuke has a crash and on par with Rain of Arrows for Blasters, which has no crash and recharges much more quickly.
We're actually rather mediocre for AOE damage in human form. I use it more for good ST damage, to be honest. It's not far off of Nova, from Smiling Joe's numbers, but I think Nova's range makes it all work better.
I don't know. We're kind of running into issues of our inherent again. I would like to see human form made more competitive with Scrappers and Stalkers, and Solar Flare would be a welcome part of that. We're always going to have less health than Scrappers (and apparently a little or no mez protection), so I don't see how giving our damage a roughly equal footing would be a problem.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Makes me wonder what they are thinking if they believe that PBs are skirting the ragged edge of being overpowered such that they couldn't bear to change a KB into a KD.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
actually that reminds me.
what the heck is the purpose of the humanform ranged aoes?
i thought they were there for peacebringers who wanted to primarily work as blasters, but thinking about the numbers and their knockback it really seems like they're just kinda useless. even if they were buffed to like, high damage it seems like the combined knockback between the two would always work against one another. i guess on a nova they make more sense as your strongest attacks don't require you to run up to them, but for humanform they seem kinda.. strange? especially in conjunction with the fact that nova form exists with better(?) versions of them.
like if you were to use the form and human versions one after another it'd require the knockback component to not be there, but that would be a strange change on the ranged attacks, not to mention the shifting times between human and nova is too large to really make that kinda viable.
what would be the general suggestion to 'fix' those powers? i can't really think of any that wouldn't make humanform end up being a better blaster than nova which is dumb. i mostly want them replaced with other powers but i can definitely see that messing with the playstyles of folks who for some reason really like to use them.
EDIT: You're talking to people who think that buffing pulsar and turning one power's KB into KD will somehow overpower an AT.
I think you need to lower your expectations.
That said, because of the nature of the discussion, it's up to us to be the advocates for the class. I'm glad a dev is taking a serious look at kheldians and especially Peacebringers, but as Aura and others have said, at the end of the day it's the dev's job to monitor the power balance of the entire game. That's not my job, I don't play the entire game.
I play my S/L capped Fire/Fire Brute and run at x8 solo and obliterate spawns without breaking a sweat, and my Energy softcapped Dark Scrapper and run through Incarnate trials with little issue. I play my WP/Mace tank; he's currently in SOs with a few uniques and procs slotted and spent the last two days going from 43 to 50, mostly in a trio, but I found he was able to run x8/+1 with just a KM/WP Scrapper without too much trouble; and with the playstyle of "dive in or Taunt pull, get RttC saturated, spam Crowd Control/Shatter/Whirling Mace/Clobber until everything's dead", which is a heck of a lot less brain power than it takes my PB to survive through a much easier spawn.
The devs can worry about meeting cries for buffs and years and years of advocating rebalancing with the needs of the overall game. As an advocate of an underperforming AT, there's no shame in wanting your class to perform at low, middle, and high ends of the 'kitted out' spectrum that's comparable to the more powerful sets out there. The devs have the entire game to worry about, and as has been evidenced by the past several years, if there's a cog that's underperforming but it's not disrupting the rest of the game *that much*, they have other things to focus on. There's nothing wrong with arguing for the best and lowering your expectations *after* the devs meet you part of the way; that's just good negotiating.