What is the Kheldian surprise?
You mean every other incarnation on the higher-hit point, higher-defense/resist ATs that are designed for melee, typically with zero to one ranged attack? Gee. Imagine that. Wonder why they might think the (lower HP, lower resist, no inherent defense) PB Human form might want to do something to get multiple enemies out of range in a way that takes them out of the fight for longer and puts them into (typically less damaging mob attack) ranged versus melee mode... hmmmm.... |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
And I disagree - and I really think you've been stuck in that IO mindset too long. (Not an attack, not an insult, it's just not where the rest of the game is.) |
I haven't tried the new changes yet but arguing that current PBs are in any way, shape or form competitive in this game is a complete joke. There is no room in this or any other MMO for a character type that does many things badly and nothing well.
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Does it mean I'm playing it "right" and you're playing it "wrong?" The only reason I'm going to say you're playing it at all "wrong" is that you don't seem to be enjoying it, and that's purely objective, not subjective. It's not running a tank without armor or mez protection and trying to be a blaster - that's subjectively wrong (and scary.) It's... a vibe, I guess, and I could well be misreading you. I just wonder if I play closer to the *devs* idea of how it should play (even past devs) and fewer of the regular posters do - much like how they've admitted being thrown by the power players have shown using IOs in ways and to levels they didn't expect. |
but i agree with memphis its all in the playing style and what you like..
I play my pb like a ranged scrapper with shields/regen..
And i mostly pvp with my pb .. and these changes are a big deal in the pvp environment..
So really its all up to the end user... until
the devs fix the forms and or the inherent so it can be more easier for the new people and closer to other AT'S without noobing the AT up for the fanatics.
imho
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I was about to rip into Bill for his response to my rant about the KB vs KD for khelds.
Then I read his further responses and realizes that he makes a lot of sense. It is a playstyle choice. However the questions is which playstyle choice should the devs favor. For now it seems they feel that taking out the KB would may PBs overpowered. I disagree.
As to whether IOs should be taken into account? They should be, HOWEVER, Bill's point is still correct. There are IO builds and then there are IO builids.
A build that can solo +4/x8 IS NOT the baseline. Period.
However, at the same time, a pure SO build is not really something I realistically think should be the baseline. There ARE things inbetween a pure SO build and PURPLED to the theeth.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
HOWEVER, I do think Nova should have more damage potential than that. My reasoning is that a Nova can cap its damage much, much quicker than human form. My wish for Nova form is that the 45% damage boost be removed and a balanced amount of that damage be added directly to the attacks. That way Cosmic Balance won't cap Nova's damage potential quite so easily.
But my point is that I can do that right now! So long as the flying bodies are still within range of my follow-up's aoe when I start the animation, they'll still take the damage, even if they're across the room and back on their feet when the animation finishes. The MOST I would be able to do with KD verses KB is throw in one more PBAoE after the second, because Luminous Detonation, Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike all would still do KB. I suppose I could pop off a Pulsar before I laid down the second AOE, but that doesn't really add to my damage potential. That being said, the KB in Solar Flare doesn't bother me one way or the other. I'm just not seeing how KD would give human form that much extra damage potential. Wait, what? Knockback has always been sold to us as a mitigation tool that we should learn to use and be happy about. In other words, it's there to make us even more powerful through mitigation. Entire sets are based on knockback as a mitigation tool, but Arbiter Hawk's rationale of knockdown in solar flare making Peacebringers overpowered would seem to indicate that he views it - at least in this case - as a negative balancing factor. In other words, it's there to rein in our power. How ironic. |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
I would agree that Nova needs some adjusting, probably an improvement to its ST damage so it is competitive with Human Form.
I also think Cosmic Balance needs some adjusting so it works more nicely with forms. Things like making Nova have a higher damage cap to work with it better, or making CB buff less so our other powers can function better while solo or on small teams (or when we move a little away from our teammates), etc., would all be helpful. I think CB is making things more difficult to balance than it should, even if I like how insanely you can be buffed on an 8 man team.
For the KB in Solar Flare, I know you can land another attack right after it goes off (AOE or otherwise), but that's it. I make use of this with all my Blasters (M80 followed by Full Auto is helpful on an AR Blaster to cut down on return fire while Full Auto is animating).
It's still less useful on a melee AT, because once the target is out of range, you can't land any more hits. That's why KB on a melee AT is a detriment. It really shouldn't be seen as a surprise that the devs are acknowledging this, either... they did as much when they made all those melee KB powers do KD back in I10. Still, I would say KB is kept in ranged powers because it is a help there. Nova form or Blasters don't really care if it gets KB'd, because they can follow up just fine.
What is surprising is that Arbiter Hawk is seeing that and a change to Pulsar as too much of a change on top of the changes we have now (this is an important distinction to make, probably... he just doesn't want to give us too many adjustments and then have to take some away, or so it sounds like). I disagree with that and am surprised by it, since those two requests aren't as changing for performance as an adjustment to Cosmic Balance or something like that.
I was about to rip into Bill for his response to my rant about the KB vs KD for khelds.
Then I read his further responses and realizes that he makes a lot of sense. It is a playstyle choice. However the questions is which playstyle choice should the devs favor. For now it seems they feel that taking out the KB would may PBs overpowered. I disagree. As to whether IOs should be taken into account? They should be, HOWEVER, Bill's point is still correct. There are IO builds and then there are IO builids. A build that can solo +4/x8 IS NOT the baseline. Period. However, at the same time, a pure SO build is not really something I realistically think should be the baseline. There ARE things inbetween a pure SO build and PURPLED to the theeth. |
And then I have characters that definitely could not do it. I'm fine at being at x2-x4 on most of my guys. That's where I'm comfortably between too easy and too hard, and where I have fun.
I do wish KB had another, similar setting (you KB or KD). Probably the best option we have right now is to make Solar Flare KD, and you can slot for the KB if you want. I know that still won't make some happy, but I think it's better than where we sit right now.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I do wish KB had another, similar setting (you KB or KD). Probably the best option we have right now is to make Solar Flare KD, and you can slot for the KB if you want. I know that still won't make some happy, but I think it's better than where we sit right now. |
Cue Bill's disagreement in 3, 2, 1 . . .
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I also think Cosmic Balance needs some adjusting so it works more nicely with forms. Things like making Nova have a higher damage cap to work with it better, or making CB buff less so our other powers can function better while solo or on small teams (or when we move a little away from our teammates), etc., would all be helpful. I think CB is making things more difficult to balance than it should, even if I like how insanely you can be buffed on an 8 man team.
|
Remove that 45% damage boost and translate that power directly to the nova attacks, and you've got a much more balanced picture between the forms, and can THEN adjust the overall damage with more predictable results.
For the KB in Solar Flare, I know you can land another attack right after it goes off (AOE or otherwise), but that's it. I make use of this with all my Blasters (M80 followed by Full Auto is helpful on an AR Blaster to cut down on return fire while Full Auto is animating). It's still less useful on a melee AT, because once the target is out of range, you can't land any more hits. That's why KB on a melee AT is a detriment. It really shouldn't be seen as a surprise that the devs are acknowledging this, either... they did as much when they made all those melee KB powers do KD back in I10. Still, I would say KB is kept in ranged powers because it is a help there. Nova form or Blasters don't really care if it gets KB'd, because they can follow up just fine. |
I suppose Pulsar could be thrown in on a knocked-down spawn, but what's stopping me right now from hitting that first, THEN hitting Solar Flare and a second attack? Nova and Dwarf form each has one AOE, but the animation time (2.224 seconds arcanatime, or thereabouts)
My point is that PEACEBRINGERS aren't going to be that much more powerful if SF is changed to KD, because they don't have enough AoE attacks in human form to leverage the advantage, and switching to forms only yields two more at the cost of almost five seconds wasted just animating the shape shift.
Would it give us more tactical options? Sure. Would it overpower our damage capabilities? I'm not seeing how.
But - as I said - I don't really have a row to hoe in the argument, because I don't see how (outside of the annoyance factor) having kd in Solar Flare instead of kb would really benefit us all that much.
What is surprising is that Arbiter Hawk is seeing that and a change to Pulsar as too much of a change on top of the changes we have now (this is an important distinction to make, probably... he just doesn't want to give us too many adjustments and then have to take some away, or so it sounds like). I disagree with that and am surprised by it, since those two requests aren't as changing for performance as an adjustment to Cosmic Balance or something like that. Castle once said that the game is balanced around SOs, but that he still had to account for IO builds (which they do with recharge numbers, etc., for powerful attacks), which is a good design approach. Even though he is gone, the devs still seem to aim for that, I would say. And yes, +4/8 is not a balance line at all. I play ATs and powerset combos that people say they can face that kind of thing, but I don't play at that difficulty level. I know I can do it with my Fire/Fire Tank in RWZ, at least, but I didn't find it all that fun. It was a tough, tricky thing to do (though I could probably make him even tougher if I had more inf), and didn't find it all that fun. And then I have characters that definitely could not do it. I'm fine at being at x2-x4 on most of my guys. That's where I'm comfortably between too easy and too hard, and where I have fun. I do wish KB had another, similar setting (you KB or KD). Probably the best option we have right now is to make Solar Flare KD, and you can slot for the KB if you want. I know that still won't make some happy, but I think it's better than where we sit right now. |
Actually, after reading what you said about keeping IO's in mind, I can kinda see what Arbiter Hawk was thinking. With IO builds you're going to have a PERMANENT 30-ish percent buff to damage across all forms, the catch being that you have to drop to human periodically to claim it. You're also going to have some sort of PERMANENT mez protection across all forms, and some pretty significant damage resistance across all forms. Again, you're going to have to drop to human form to claim it.
It's almost as if he was afraid we'd never feel the need to drop to human form, so he sort of tried to force the issue by tying those two powers to human form specifcially. (And also why we'll never likely see Inner Light clickable in forms)
Problem with that is that he really didn't give us any reason to switch to the forms in the first place. The shields toggle off when in form, so dropping to human form is going to mean lesser resistances if and until you get the toggles back up. Dwarf doesn't give any real damage resistance that can't be attained from taking all three shields with perma light form, and now that human form only gives slightly less mez protection than it did I won't even need to use Dwarf to break mez.
There's slightly more reason to go nova for AOE potential, but even that can be eclipsed by human form's newfound single target damage.
It's not that the forms are somehow less balanced than they were, it's just that there's so much more incentive given now to stay in human form that Nova and Dwarf have become inconvenient.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
But - as I said - I don't really have a row to hoe in the argument, because I don't see how (outside of the annoyance factor) having kd in Solar Flare instead of kb would really benefit us all that much. |
Five Powers are "ranged" Gleaming bolt, glinting eye, gleaming blast, Luminous Detonation, and Proton Scatter. Five are "close", Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike, Pulsar (PBAoE), Dawn Strike (Nother PBAoE), Solar Flare (Yet more PBAoE), and Photon Seekers (So dumb they might as well be PBAoE). Of all those powers three of the four PBAoE's knockback, all at a rate of 50% or greater, only two of the ranged ones do (Luminous Detonation at 50%, Gleaming Blast at 10%). So we're kinda directly being discouraged from using the PBAoE thanks to the knockback, but they're also some of our best powers...and includes one of our few mez tools. However, it also discourages the use of our OTHER mez tool (And strongest single target attack) in Incandescent strike since we're having to chase down all the guys we just sent flying all over the place because its melee.
Something to keep in mind though is that changing the knockback to knockdown isnt just a benefit to us, it benefits our GROUP (Something our inherent encourages us to you know...do) in that we aren't throwing enemies all willy nilly, making THEM chase down enemies to use THEIR attacks.
I dont buy the "It might be overpowered" line...I dont buy it at all...
Is the annoyance factor a valid arguement? Yes, yes it is. Half of our abilities are designed for up close combat, half aren't. Should one side suffer? No, but people who like knockback can get it back just by devoting one slot in the powers with it to a knockback enhancement. People who dont want knockback cant devote an enhancement slot to removing it. I wish we could make everyone happy, but unless we make doubles of every power, one with knockback, one with knockdown, somebody isnt gonna be happy...and I highly doubt we'll get mirrors of all the powers...
It benefits us in not having to chase enemies down because half of our abilities are designed for close range. Matter of fact, lets take a look at our primary...
Five Powers are "ranged" Gleaming bolt, glinting eye, gleaming blast, Luminous Detonation, and Proton Scatter. Five are "close", Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike, Pulsar (PBAoE), Dawn Strike (Nother PBAoE), Solar Flare (Yet more PBAoE), and Photon Seekers (So dumb they might as well be PBAoE). Of all those powers three of the four PBAoE's knockback, all at a rate of 50% or greater, only two of the ranged ones do (Luminous Detonation at 50%, Gleaming Blast at 10%). So we're kinda directly being discouraged from using the PBAoE thanks to the knockback, but they're also some of our best powers...and includes one of our few mez tools. However, it also discourages the use of our OTHER mez tool (And strongest single target attack) in Incandescent strike since we're having to chase down all the guys we just sent flying all over the place because its melee. Something to keep in mind though is that changing the knockback to knockdown isnt just a benefit to us, it benefits our GROUP (Something our inherent encourages us to you know...do) in that we aren't throwing enemies all willy nilly, making THEM chase down enemies to use THEIR attacks. I dont buy the "It might be overpowered" line...I dont buy it at all... Is the annoyance factor a valid arguement? Yes, yes it is. Half of our abilities are designed for up close combat, half aren't. Should one side suffer? No, but people who like knockback can get it back just by devoting one slot in the powers with it to a knockback enhancement. People who dont want knockback cant devote an enhancement slot to removing it. I wish we could make everyone happy, but unless we make doubles of every power, one with knockback, one with knockdown, somebody isnt gonna be happy...and I highly doubt we'll get mirrors of all the powers... |
Punch'em here, punch'em there. Makes no difference to me, so I won't mind one way or the other.
But I also don't buy the kd=overpowered argument. On another set and archetype - like Electric Melee, for example - it makes more sense. Oh, wait. Electric Melee does knockdown, doesn't it? So all of those EM/Shield scraps and brutes aren't overpowered compared to other sets in their archetype?
Oh, wait. Shield Charge does knockdown too, doesn't it?
Huh.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I'd like to ask for them to look at extracted essence. there has been a bug for quite a while now that if you use the power on a dead body and said dead body either disappears or revives, the essence isn't summoned. I can't imagine this is working as intended but if it is, can it not?
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
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Almost all melee attacks were changed to do knockdown very early in the game's history, except where it was explicitly decided not to (like crane kick) primarily (if not solely) because of the broad annoyance factor of the people playing them who didn't want to have to chase things around to keep hitting them all the time, every time. Though there was also a factor where popular sets like super strength were throwing things out of their defense buffing auras (invincibility) and thus hurting their user's survivability more than helping it, as I recall.
I'd guess that the only reason more people aren't annoyed by PB knockback is because there is hardly anyone playing them. I know I was annoyed by my own KB when I was still playing mine. It'd sorta grow over the course of a session and just make playing for extended periods... wearying, I guess is the word. After just a few hours of it I'd be ready to play or do something else.
And I also agree with the poster who said that PBs are still not up to par in the top tiers of play - this is one of the reasons I wanted the 'dom treatment' for their attacks, stat changes that improve output while increasing recharge and end use (two of the three major things IOs can help you with) would give them a lot more room to grow with increasingly expensive builds.
I do understand and respect that people have their own views and opinions on things like 'character tiers' or what does or should constitute performance standards. There's actually a lot of value in maintaining that the top tier shouldn't be the only standard of balance.
But there's no value, and indeed it's harmful to the game and the AT under discussion, to maintain that the top tier shouldn't be a standard of balance at all.
The game reality is what it is. +4x8 and above is a standard that exists, and is not just doable but pretty commonly so. It must be considered too. Clamping your hands over your ears and yelling "na na na na I can't heeear you" at the top of your lungs won't make all the high performance ATs go away.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Originally Posted by me
IN general:
The ONLY way I'd support changing this to Knockdown would really be via an alternate power - that basically is a PBAOE placed Liquefy, essentially - meaning it continues over time. Why? Survivability. I use the time and distance I get from the knockback to stay alive and let me concentrate on the higher risk targets. Going to knockDOWN in footstomp removes that. Creating that would likely lower the damage you'd otherwise get, but it's also thematically a good place to put in a stun to stack with Pulsar. |
i'm also assuming that they can't just shorten the animation by alot.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I do understand and respect that people have their own views and opinions on things like 'character tiers' or what does or should constitute performance standards. There's actually a lot of value in maintaining that the top tier shouldn't be the only standard of balance.
But there's no value, and indeed it's harmful to the game and the AT under discussion, to maintain that the top tier shouldn't be a standard of balance at all. The game reality is what it is. +4x8 and above is a standard that exists, and is not just doable but pretty commonly so. It must be considered too. Clamping your hands over your ears and yelling "na na na na I can't heeear you" at the top of your lungs won't make all the high performance ATs go away. |
i'm squarely in that heavily IO'd crowd but not in that ridiculous range. the 'billions and billions of inf' build i'm talkin about has no purples, just kinetic combats, luck of the gamblers, obliterations and other high end IOs. it's not a rare usually unachievable situation like it is with someone who's got purples everywhere but instead the high-end standard.
baseline definitely not the right word in this scenario though so ya'll are right about that haha
seriously though, lessen or remove the crash from light form. the way it functions at the high end seems contrary(?) to it's intended design in the high-end aspect of permanent light form as in the situations where it would be useful (being the primary target in a fight, stuff like that) as that it has a tendency to crash in those combat situations (well, there's rarely downtime in this game outside of wipes anyhow) and leave you dead.
to be less dramatic, all-in-all i just don't think the current buffs bring peacebringers to the level to where people outside of fanatics will want to play them, or pay the 12? dollars to unlock and play them when freedom comes out. i'm sure that's a reason they're being buffed in the first place.
edit: their rep doesn't really help this scenario at all either.
not really sure how to buff them though. someone suggested a fix of replacing the knockback with knockdown and changing the -def to -res and i think that would be pretty cool since it lets you leave most of the powers and the inherent the same, while drastically increasing the damage output in a manner that removes one of the more common complaints about pb powers (-defense not really doing much against npcs). but i specifically play in a blapper style humanform only sooo yeah.
Yes, and then they got fixed and suddenly they were fun and much more playable. Turning dwarf form mire into part of the attack chain instead of just a buff made almost the entire difference.
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Edit: Not saying that PB's don't need to be buffed up a bit. Just looking at things now versus how they were in the past, it's funny to see how much of a mirror things are.
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::shrug:: I don't mind spending the .5 seconds it takes to chase enemies down, or the .5 seconds it takes to position to knock them into a wall or something. I also don't mind punching them where they fall, should they be knocked down.
Punch'em here, punch'em there. Makes no difference to me, so I won't mind one way or the other. But I also don't buy the kd=overpowered argument. On another set and archetype - like Electric Melee, for example - it makes more sense. Oh, wait. Electric Melee does knockdown, doesn't it? So all of those EM/Shield scraps and brutes aren't overpowered compared to other sets in their archetype? Oh, wait. Shield Charge does knockdown too, doesn't it? Huh. |
But there's no value, and indeed it's harmful to the game and the AT under discussion, to maintain that the top tier shouldn't be a standard of balance at all.
The game reality is what it is. +4x8 and above is a standard that exists, and is not just doable but pretty commonly so. It must be considered too. Clamping your hands over your ears and yelling "na na na na I can't heeear you" at the top of your lungs won't make all the high performance ATs go away. |
In fact, all your reasoning smacks of how people talk down about Dual Pistols for Blasters. The set does have the issue that all the damage types buy Fire and Standard aren't all that helpful for Blasters, but otherwise, it's middle of the road for damage. The numbers SHOW IT, but to hear people talk, you would think you were shooting spitwads at enemies. I have a Dual Pistols Blaster and had to point out how wrong that impression was many, many times.
Also, you're going to need to get your measuring stick adjusted if you think +4/x8 is a balancing point for the developers. Some players have that measuring stick for themselves and the sets they play, but that's the advantage of our game having a difficulty slider. They can play there if they want, but no one HAS to. And no powerset or AT needs to be able to, either.
You can certainly point to what other ATs can do and show that Peacebringers or Warshades have issues that the other ATs do not, but you're not going to get any traction if your balance point is that "Kheldians should totally be able to fight +4/x8 with no problems."
The game is designed with SOs in mind, while still accounting for the bonuses IOs offer. That's well short of +4/x8 (which is a level attainable through a build and player ability, which is good to remember as well).
Aganhim, that change to Warshade's Dwarf form was pretty helpful. A lot of players were pointing out that the longer mire in Dwarf Form made Dwarf for Warshades a lot weaker than Peacebringers. Technically, it was a nerf to Warshades overall damage potential, but it did make fighting in Dwarf more valid for them.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Flux, every set cannot be in the top tier, and it wouldn't be a good thing if they were. Sets should be allowed to be different for flavor and to be interesting, and no matter what, there are going to be powersets that are seen as middle of the road or more powerful. Case in point, Energy is weaker than Fire in the Blast sets, but it also offers more mitigation and has a distinctly different playstyle. That's not a bad thing, or a good thing.
In fact, all your reasoning smacks of how people talk down about Dual Pistols for Blasters. The set does have the issue that all the damage types buy Fire and Standard aren't all that helpful for Blasters, but otherwise, it's middle of the road for damage. The numbers SHOW IT, but to hear people talk, you would think you were shooting spitwads at enemies. I have a Dual Pistols Blaster and had to point out how wrong that impression was many, many times. |
But my response to Smiling_Joe was that if he wants PBs to have a truly balanced 'tri form' option, then I think we need new ideas beyond 'make nova do more damage' and 'make dwarf tougher' because 'doing damage' and 'being tough' are also the function of the vast majority of the human form's powers too. If the forms (especially nova form) are good enough to want to use under the current model, then the human form's not nearly as useful in comparison. Notably, if nova did that much more damage with the current changes on beta, why would you ever leave it except to reactivate clickbuffs like essence boost, hasten, and light form? I probably wouldn't even bother reactivating the buildup except when I had something else to click before I shifted back, in fact.
Heck as it stands where human and nova are doing 'comparable' damage, I can see a strong argument for being a nova-centric PB since you do serious damage at long range and with flight. Throw in essence boost and being res capped and having a degree of status protection, and you've got a serious mitigation advantage over most other ranged combatants (with the major exception of range-built VEATs).
You just won't do the damage that would put you up there with warshades or crab spiders. So you're not 'top tier' you're 'mediocre' - in the middle. Edit - and even with their damage advantages I'd put blasters mostly in the middle, in 'mediocre' too - they don't have the survivability, at least not without IO builds. They only go up to 'good' when you IO them into a softcapped, high damage ranged attacker.
Also, you're going to need to get your measuring stick adjusted if you think +4/x8 is a balancing point for the developers. Some players have that measuring stick for themselves and the sets they play, but that's the advantage of our game having a difficulty slider. They can play there if they want, but no one HAS to. And no powerset or AT needs to be able to, either. You can certainly point to what other ATs can do and show that Peacebringers or Warshades have issues that the other ATs do not, but you're not going to get any traction if your balance point is that "Kheldians should totally be able to fight +4/x8 with no problems." The game is designed with SOs in mind, while still accounting for the bonuses IOs offer. That's well short of +4/x8 (which is a level attainable through a build and player ability, which is good to remember as well). Aganhim, that change to Warshade's Dwarf form was pretty helpful. A lot of players were pointing out that the longer mire in Dwarf Form made Dwarf for Warshades a lot weaker than Peacebringers. Technically, it was a nerf to Warshades overall damage potential, but it did make fighting in Dwarf more valid for them. |
In short, my measuring stick is fine. I'm just looking at the whole stick, not just the bottom half of it. And I think people who aren't are doing themselves, and the discussion, a disservice by not doing the same with theirs. Or by using sticks that are too small.
There's nothing wrong with an AT being mediocre. But there's also nothing wrong with it being mediocre on "SO's" and then having room to grow into being truly awesome with IOs, too. Instead of just being stuck with "mediocre, no matter what you do to your build." Sorta like the opposite of if you couldn't use IOs to softcap your blaster; he'd do damage, sure, but not survive well. Now the PB will survive well, but even with being IO'd out the PB's damage can't go up too much farther. Wanting IOs to improve a character isn't some kind of "crime against balance."
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Aganhim, that change to Warshade's Dwarf form was pretty helpful. A lot of players were pointing out that the longer mire in Dwarf Form made Dwarf for Warshades a lot weaker than Peacebringers. Technically, it was a nerf to Warshades overall damage potential, but it did make fighting in Dwarf more valid for them.
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VIRTUE
Agahnim- Elec/Ice Blaster
"Elec/Ice. Nice. Holy <@*&$@#!> =) You're like the CoH equivalent of those bdsm people who hang from the ceiling on hooks!"
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Agahnim Dragmire- Warshade
"(You spin space webs. =D)"
-Paladin
I didn't say every set should be top tier. All I've specifically advocated for Peacebringers is for them to be made mediocre. And I've even said outright that I think this set of changes probably accomplishes what I've wanted for PBs (yes, they really had that far to go, and yes, primarily res-based survivability has been deprecated because of the numerous buffs given to and secondary benefits derived from defense-based mitigation as opposed to resist-based mitigation for characters who haven't got debuff resistances).
But my response to Smiling_Joe was that if he wants PBs to have a truly balanced 'tri form' option, then I think we need new ideas beyond 'make nova do more damage' and 'make dwarf tougher' because 'doing damage' and 'being tough' are also the function of the vast majority of the human form's powers too. If the forms (especially nova form) are good enough to want to use under the current model, then the human form's not nearly as useful in comparison. Notably, if nova did that much more damage with the current changes on beta, why would you ever leave it except to reactivate clickbuffs like essence boost, hasten, and light form? I probably wouldn't even bother reactivating the buildup except when I had something else to click before I shifted back, in fact. Heck as it stands where human and nova are doing 'comparable' damage, I can see a strong argument for being a nova-centric PB since you do serious damage at long range and with flight. Throw in essence boost and being res capped and having a degree of status protection, and you've got a serious mitigation advantage over most other ranged combatants (with the major exception of range-built VEATs). You just won't do the damage that would put you up there with warshades or crab spiders. So you're not 'top tier' you're 'mediocre' - in the middle. Edit - and even with their damage advantages I'd put blasters mostly in the middle, in 'mediocre' too - they don't have the survivability, at least not without IO builds. They only go up to 'good' when you IO them into a softcapped, high damage ranged attacker. What I'm saying is that a measuring stick has two ends, and a middile, and that a lot of posters seem to discount deny or disparage the existence of the top end and simply try to claim balance falls between the low end and the middle rather than putting the middle between low and high where it belongs. In short, my measuring stick is fine. I'm just looking at the whole stick, not just the bottom half of it. And I think people who aren't are doing themselves, and the discussion, a disservice by not doing the same with theirs. Or by using sticks that are too small. There's nothing wrong with an AT being mediocre. But there's also nothing wrong with it being mediocre on "SO's" and then having room to grow into being truly awesome with IOs, too. Instead of just being stuck with "mediocre, no matter what you do to your build." Sorta like the opposite of if you couldn't use IOs to softcap your blaster; he'd do damage, sure, but not survive well. Now the PB will survive well, but even with being IO'd out the PB's damage can't go up too much farther. Wanting IOs to improve a character isn't some kind of "crime against balance." |
EDIT: You're talking to people who think that buffing pulsar and turning one power's KB into KD will somehow overpower an AT.
I think you need to lower your expectations.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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If you are trying to convince the devs for buffs +4/x8 will get you no where in discussions with them. In their eyes the far fewer powersets and ATs that can do that the better.
EDIT: You're talking to people who think that buffing pulsar and turning one power's KB into KD will somehow overpower an AT. I think you need to lower your expectations. |
i keep purging that statement from my mind but yeah i got to remember that we're dealing with dudes who think peacebringers can output more damage than super strength on average
but really i still think they are very much considering high end play when designing powersets and power changes, or else inner light and light form wouldn't be designed as they are. to completely omit that level of play from our discussion would pretty clearly be harmful like flux said. it's not advocating +4x8 off SOs or whatever, but like flux said: after significant investment they should be able to operate on average at a level equal to powersets who have had the same investment on their character. whether that's +4x8 or +0x4 or whatever it's something that's clearly being considered by the devs.
honestly i've pretty much given up hope on peacebringers getting buffs that bring them up to a level where people who aren't in love with them for whatever reason want to actually play them.
and y'know. pay for them.
edit: to add something to the discussion beyond pissing matches, has anyone else had the bug with light form where if you try to activate it when it's recharging or already active it still runs it's animation? like if i have light form already up and then click the power again or use a bind or whatnot it'll still run the animation regardless of the state of the power.
it's really annoying since it makes setting lightform to a fire and forget bind like movement your dude will raise their hands up and shake their fists at the heavens
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
But my response to Smiling_Joe was that if he wants PBs to have a truly balanced 'tri form' option, then I think we need new ideas beyond 'make nova do more damage' and 'make dwarf tougher' because 'doing damage' and 'being tough' are also the function of the vast majority of the human form's powers too. If the forms (especially nova form) are good enough to want to use under the current model, then the human form's not nearly as useful in comparison. Notably, if nova did that much more damage with the current changes on beta, why would you ever leave it except to reactivate clickbuffs like essence boost, hasten, and light form? I probably wouldn't even bother reactivating the buildup except when I had something else to click before I shifted back, in fact.
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The thing that makes this all "work" is that those buffs will ALSO carry over into the other forms, but it takes time to "ramp up". It encourages taking the forms because they're useful for not only the "job they do", but also because they help the others. Need to be tanky but want some damage, spend some time in nova, build up that bonus energy charge, drop to dwarf, while it lasts your dwarf has a damage boost. Its a mechanic that would encourage form switching, keeping all the forms not only viable, but useful. Admittedly, this will fit MY playstyle best, and wont really "work" until we get the faster animation time on the form shifts. It is however in line with what we've seen out of the devs with new powersets recently. Its a gimmick, akin to the new combo stat on Street Justice, or disintegrate on beam rifle...or heck, just the combo stuff out of dual blades.
I still believe we need to change out some of our resists somewhere (From the inherent, shields to defense, etc). I still think Pulsar needs to be mag 3, and Solar Flare needs to be KD, but if they want to keep the forms valuable, this would be a good way to do it.
(A) Some ATs don't click with some people. They expect things the AT isn't designed around - say, tanking with a blaster. Hell, *I* admit some powersets and combos don't click with me. I can't stand Illusion, for instance. Or,
(b) We don't know your build. We don't know what you've put in it, what powers you've picked. There could be a fundamental flaw with your build and/or your tactics in using it. There's a *wide* range of IOs out there. You could have made less than ideal (or "odd" to me - and I don't mean ideal isn't "odd" to me, I play my own way) choices. I don't know.
Neither of these are attacks on you, they're plainly stated possibilities. So don't TAKE them as attacks on you. I'm blunt with what I say. If I wanted to insult you, I'd call you an idiot. I haven't done so.
I've been playing PBs since Issue 4. When voids hit harder, we had content gaps, debt really meant something, etc. And I'm *perfectly* comfortable saying "No, they don't underperform at standard levels." They sit right where I expect them to sit - faster than pure support, not as tough as a dedicated melee AT, tougher than the dedicated ranged AT, with a few tricks thrown in.
If my PB were soloing at the same rate as my Controllers - and again, I'm not talking IO'd out Fire/Kin farmer or Ill/Storm - I'd be right there with you saying they underperform. If they were soloing at Defender speeds without something equal to the force multipliers Defenders bring, I'd be yelling for something to be done as well.
But they're not. They're faster, they're more survivable (or survivable in different ways) and bring a different mix of abilities to the table.
I don't tend to agree with saying "turn it up to x8" for a PB - that's not generally where a PB stands out. PBs and Warshades play with different sides of the difficulty slider - Warshades thrive on more bodies, PBs on fewer but tougher enemies. (Again, I'm talking at standard, not IO'd out levels. IOs can push things in all sorts of different directions.)
Honest question there. If that's the build you're used to, you're *not* in touch with what a standard Peacebringer does - and I'll say that using the new Light Form is *not* minor at all at those levels. It's able to be used more frequently, frankly, with the adjustments made for it. It changes the situations where it can be used - it's a lot like Domination in that respect, where pre-Dom2.0 people would hold off on using it until they were coming to a boss fight, so they could get the damage boost as well as the mag boost. Now? It pops constantly.
The variability's more in build to build or player to player, in the form of what forms they've taken and the like.
(Example, I got a PM from someone else in this thread asking me about my views on Knockback that I've put in there, how I can find it useful, etc. When I told them, their response was more of a "Huh. Yeah, different playstyle, I can't see myself doing anything but melee" (paraphrased.) ) And that may well be part of the variability you're trying to tell me about a little earlier - but I tend to think (from playing these for so long) that concentrating on just one or the other (melee vs ranged, and that's not taking control possibilities, etc. into the mix) short-changes the AT as a whole.
Does it mean I'm playing it "right" and you're playing it "wrong?" The only reason I'm going to say you're playing it at all "wrong" is that you don't seem to be enjoying it, and that's purely objective, not subjective. It's not running a tank without armor or mez protection and trying to be a blaster - that's subjectively wrong (and scary.) It's... a vibe, I guess, and I could well be misreading you. I just wonder if I play closer to the *devs* idea of how it should play (even past devs) and fewer of the regular posters do - much like how they've admitted being thrown by the power players have shown using IOs in ways and to levels they didn't expect.