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Scenario 1: Eclipse is recharged. There is only one enemy currently alive.|
Originally Posted by Mousetrap
Explain what part of +damage and +resist is situational, please. And try to do it without sounding like you're fourteen.
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Scenario 2: Eclipse is recharged. There are 18 enemies tightly grouped.
Obviously, the second scenario makes for better use of eclipse and the mires as using it on one enemy hampers its effectiveness. A peacebringer with the new Light Form can utilize it without losing effectiveness. Because there is a preferred situation for the use of Eclipse, one could call it situational.
Of course, that's all arguing semantics. I thought THB was being fairly clear when he stated that it required pre-existing conditions and related risks.
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You shouldn't need eclipse to beat 1 of any given standard enemy. |
Originally Posted by ketch
Scenario 1: Eclipse is recharged. There is only one enemy currently alive.
Scenario 2: Eclipse is recharged. There are 18 enemies tightly grouped. Obviously, the second scenario makes for better use of eclipse and the mires as using it on one enemy hampers its effectiveness. A peacebringer with the new Light Form can utilize it without losing effectiveness. Because there is a preferred situation for the use of Eclipse, one could call it situational. Of course, that's all arguing semantics. I thought THB was being fairly clear when he stated that it required pre-existing conditions and related risks. |
And you can contrive to acquire adds for AV soloing attempts.
Whenever you are going to want to eclipse or mire, there will be targets for them. I think 'misfired eclipses' are being overstated as a threat here. Unless a PB is following you around KBing everything with solar flare on purpose because he hates warshades. Which I would think is absolutely hilarious the first two or three times.
Okay, who am I kidding, that would totally be "Sunstorm's Revenge" and it would probably never get old to see.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Unless, as stated, that single enemy is an EB or AV. Given that these are usually the last man standing as well there is no fuel for Eclipse barring unusual circumstances (e.g. the waves of ambushes at the end of the ITF). Of course, you could plan ahead to provide targets for Eclipse/mires, but that requires your teammates cooperate in leaving them alive (perhaps at the expense of their own safety).|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
You shouldn't need eclipse to beat 1 of any given standard enemy.
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How's this? Every power is situational. Obviously, you don't use a heal when your health is full. You don't use AoE's when only a single target is surviving. In sayomh that Eclipse is situational, THB is communicating that Eclipse is more situational than the comparable power in Light Form.
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This is just... not true. Say a warshade and a peacebringer are duoing some +4x8 missions. The Warshade will take care of all the LT's and Minions with relative ease, but the last 3 bosses will hit them hard. 3 targets is not sufficient for eclipse or mire, whereas the Peacebringer can pound them down with perma light form, even blast them down in nova with much more survivability.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
You shouldn't need eclipse to beat 1 of any given standard enemy.
And you can contrive to acquire adds for AV soloing attempts. Whenever you are going to want to eclipse or mire, there will be targets for them. |
Also like I mentioned before, the LRSF. Common practice is pulling one hero at a time... Sure you could run over and aggro a bunch of adds to buff off of but then you'd also have to kill them or risk pissing off your teammates.
Not really the best option, so you suffer a loss in damage output- Lack of mires and fluffies. You also lose survivability- Insufficient eclipse, no targets for stygian circle. Once again, the Peacebringer slugs away safely.
I think it's great that LF can now be made perma, I just think that it should offer just enough resistance to be able to hit 85% in Dwarf form or with toggles. Also please consider the fact that in tough situations, a Light Form'd Dwarf can also hit Essence Boost, making it much more survivable than a fully Eclipsed Warshade.
I've been on the fence about creating my first PB for some time. These changes are going to make it a sure thing. I expect the form change animation changes to be a big help when they go through. If the PBAoEs (at least) could be changed to KD that would really seal the deal for me.
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There are very few situations where an EB can't be defeated by any AT using primarily their insp tray. And if you're not soloing the AV (which some would say is a nonstandard playstyle) then you can just accept the help of your teammates and not worry about the fact that you aren't at the stat caps for damage and resistance during the entire fight.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Unless, as stated, that single enemy is an EB or AV. Given that these are usually the last man standing as well there is no fuel for Eclipse barring unusual circumstances (e.g. the waves of ambushes at the end of the ITF). Of course, you could plan ahead to provide targets for Eclipse/mires, but that requires your teammates cooperate in leaving them alive (perhaps at the expense of their own safety).
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| How's this? Every power is situational. Obviously, you don't use a heal when your health is full. You don't use AoE's when only a single target is surviving. In sayomh that Eclipse is situational, THB is communicating that Eclipse is more situational than the comparable power in Light Form. |
Further, being more situational doesn't make it less powerful (by this logic followup or soul drain are more situational than buildup - I know which I'd rather have on any given character, though!).
And further still - under this change eclipse is individually a less powerful power than light form. Light form does more! That still doesn't mean PBs are now eclipsing warshades as a total package even in the realm of survivability. But if they were to, demonstrably, warshades retain numerous offensive advantages regardless.
One AT being more offensively powerful and the other being more defensively powerful is a lot closer to 'balanced' than warshades plain out unilaterally dominating peacebringers in every regard. Indeed given the game's tilt towards favoring offense over defense, warshades have the tastier slice of the pie even if it's not the bigger one.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Something to keep in mind is that Mires and Eclipse are still perfectly valuable on a single target to the tune of the equivalent of one insp if Mire is double stacked or Eclipse is used alone (eclipse counts for half again if slotted).
It's absolutely immature to think that Eclipse has an opportunity cost because you have to activate it before a fight. Warshades have this ability, it's called Shadow Cloak. While in Shadow Cloak, you are in a state called "Stealth" where enemies have a hard time seeing you. Short of some rare situations, it is perfectly viable to walk up to a group, Eclipse as an alpha strike, and enjoy the full benefits of capped resists before you even suffered one attack. At worst, you get hit by a Rikti drone (please don't tell me that rikti drones one shot you, they don't). If you are presumably chugging along with a full on fuzzy accompaniment and rocking orbiting debt, odds are you're already resist capped, so what opportunity cost?
As for the Mires, let's do a little thought exercise with math. Scrapper Soul Drain, fully saturated, returns 140% damage buff: 50% from the first one, 90% from the remaining 9. This was due to the overall lack of desire to ever soul drain on a single target. As a point of comparison, brutes gain 112% damage buff from Soul Drain (40% first, 8% for the remaining 9). Warshades have two mires, a traditional Soul Drain clone without the "first target" perk and an extremely fast recharging one with a shorter duration in dwarf form. A fully saturated mire returns 112.5% damage increase, more then a brute on technicality but realistically the same. A double mire returns 225% damage buff, with Black Dwarf Mire being trivially easy to perma and a good aoe attack in the tank form on its own. Essentially, the fact that Warshades don't get an initial boost from the first one is a balancing factor simply because if we made both work like Soul Drain, you'd end up with 72% damage buff (36*2) on top of a whopping 225% damage buff assuming you had them saturated.
Simply speaking, this means that Mires have -immense- strength when fully saturated and are so so to passable when on a single target. This is far from situational because there's absolutely no reason not to use both off cooldown when the enemies number past 3-4. Complaining it's situation is like complaining that Inferno is situational because it's garbage against single target (in other news, water is wet). Touch of Fear is a great example of a situational power: Something that has use in a limited situation, but otherwise doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table except for those times. Nebulous Form is a better example for a Warshade, NOT Eclipse and the Mires.
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Some enemies have this thing called perception, which means they can see you when you're stealthy. This is all beside the point, I don't think anyone has suggested that eclipse isn't an awesome power or that anything needs to be changed about it. I'm just of the opinion that Light Form should provide less resistance to most types of damage, and not allow the Peacebringer to reach the 85% cap without the help of enhancements paired with toggles or dwarf form. I also think it should get an equal amount of psi resistance added... |
Originally Posted by Kenteko
It's absolutely immature to think that Eclipse has an opportunity cost because you have to activate it before a fight. Warshades have this ability, it's called Shadow Cloak. While in Shadow Cloak, you are in a state called "Stealth" where enemies have a hard time seeing you. Short of some rare situations, it is perfectly viable to walk up to a group, Eclipse as an alpha strike, and enjoy the full benefits of capped resists before you even suffered one attack. At worst, you get hit by a Rikti drone (please don't tell me that rikti drones one shot you, they don't). If you are presumably chugging along with a full on fuzzy accompaniment and rocking orbiting debt, odds are you're already resist capped, so what opportunity cost? |
Sure the risk of Eclipse doesn't impede it very often, but it is still present and it cannot help the Warshade hit the resist cap all the time unless certain conditions are met (ie: finding more bodies.) I'm proposing that light form should allow the Peacebringer to reach the resistance cap (or close) if different conditions are met: The Peacebringer either being in Dwarf form or using resistance toggles.
AIB proposed that LF provide 30% resistance to all damage including toxic. Here is his suggestion in full from another thread. I think this would be a good way to do it.
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Originally Posted by AIB
My last post has not yet been addressed (perhaps it has been overlooked, ignored or both).
At anyrate, I really would like some input on my suggestions for Light Form as I feel that this may be a path most of you would be willing to travel. Quoting the pertinent info, Now, just to make the numbers nice and round how about this everyone... Light Form's (Resplendence) new and improved unenhanced values...
I thank you in advance, AIB |
Does the new LF still crash? If it does, then its situational nature could be to not dying during the crash. Yes, you could wait for it to crash before jumping into a spawn, but that means paying attention and not simply barreling into spawns.
I'm still trying to absorb all the changes in I21 (not just Kheldian) and I can't look at things myself (nothing unlocked on beta), so I don't have an opinion as of yet.
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I lol'd.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Oh noes. The 6 years of performance dominance by warshades is under a moderate threat on the defensive side of the equation!
If this trend keeps up, then in 2017 peacebringers will get something that's as good as extracted essence! Quickly, to your forum battlestations, this cannot stand unopposed! |
But I also agreed
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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nice to see kheldians (especially peacebringers) getting some much overdue love. Fixing Solar Flare so it can be used whilst flying is a great change and I like the look of the rest of the updates as well.
That said; whilst you are showing pb's and ws's some love...do you think we could maybe get the kheldian sash as a usable costume piece?
Roleplayer and member of "The Unity Vigil"
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White Warlock Lv50 Ill/Storm Controller
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Been asking for this for YEARS.. Devs are reluctant to change it to match every other version of this Power for some reason.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
now if it was just KD ...
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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It is still a KB|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
now if it was just KD ...
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It was one of the first things I checked. I was hoping the devs read all the complaints about the KB and asking to convert it to KD.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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We're talking about Solar Flare right? Question: since it can now be used in the Air, can you do it high enough above a group that you KB them to the ground instead of scattering them? If so, that's something, I guess...
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Originally Posted by Big_Soto
It is still a KB
It was one of the first things I checked. I was hoping the devs read all the complaints about the KB and asking to convert it to KD. |
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I have been saying this for years.. I have directly emailed the Devs about this issue..|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Here are suggestions I have made that still need to be made to Peacebringers/Kheldians (Warshades needing fewer).
1. Make Solar Flare KD. Been stated enough elsewhere. It's just not on par with other PbAOE melee powers. 2. Make Pulsar a guaranteed Mag 3, and possibly shorten the animation as well. I'm not sure why people aren't mentioning this more here, but it is a common complaint in the rest of the forums. Pulsar is far weaker then the Warshade AOE mez power, and it should not be. The two should be roughly balanced. Arbiter Hawk made an over all post later, saying that the desire for changes to Solar Flare and Pulsar are noted, but he did not want to bring them in at this point because the other changes to them are so significant, and he does not want Peacebringers to become overpowerd. I and others are more than on the record to say this is not the case. If I ever compare Peacebringers to Warshades or other melee ATs in the future, it's easy to note that the current powers changed are in line with similar Warshade powers, but that Solar Flare and Pulsar are behind what other similar powers can do. Until Solar Flare and Pulsar are improved, they are sub-par and weakened, meaning that Peacebringers are also lagging behind their Warshade brethren and the melee ATs they are meant to emulate in human form. Pulsar is not worth using in its current form as a crowd control power (unable to reliably mez a lieutenant in a lengthy three second power), and Solar Flare is iffy mitigation that does not allow a Peacebringer to follow up with any of their other attacks. Peacebringers are in far more need of help than Warshades, and the main things Warshades need are being worked on. +def to all from their stealth power, better form shifting to dwarf, and (eventually/hopefully) a faster shifting between forms. |
There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER why Solar Flare is totally different from every other incarnation of this power in the game..
I am a PB.. I have strong melee.. I use Solar Flare.. now every damn foe is out of my melee range.. yay...
I am a PB.. I have Solar Flare.. I use it on teams.. It scatters folks in every direction.. People HATE that on teams.. So basically on a team I NEVER USE THE POWER..thats a great solution...
Pulsar a weak stun that takes waaaaaay to long to animate.. I wouldnt mind the animation if the stun was a mag 3 but it isnt and GP as already pointed out it is WEAKER than the Warshade AoE Mez power and they should have SOME balance.
And to say they are worried about PB's becoming overpowered is utterly ridiculous. Overpowered compared to what ?? The Warshade which is already way better ?? The VEAT's???? Come on please.. stop....
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Nope.. and no response other than.. well think about it.. almost the entire player base wants this change and its NOT a game breaker....
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Originally Posted by Big_Soto
It is still a KB
It was one of the first things I checked. I was hoping the devs read all the complaints about the KB and asking to convert it to KD. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Solar Flare isn't a stompy animation anymore?
So long, level 50+3 peacebringer. It was nice knowing you.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Why would they keep it KB? Do they just want us to constantly piss off teams?
Love the changes to Lightform and Photon Seekers though. 180secs is great for that. (Although of course still massively outclassed by the WS ones).
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Originally Posted by Microcosm I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff. |
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'm not sure about that. The powers are equal in recharge and duration, and Eclipse can surpass the resists of Light Form, and with no crash whatsoever. Light Form does have mez protection, but it's only Mag 3. That's nice, but if you have ever used Acrobatics for hold protection on a squishy, you know it's not enough if there is more than one mezzer around.
I would say the two powers are pretty equivalent. Both have pros and cons and are unique enough to keep the two sets different but balanced from each other. |
PB's are finally getting looked at since they have been underperforming for years, so dont talk about taking our goodies away. Even with these fixes WS's are still better at PvE than PB's.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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At 180secs it is still IMO considered a skippable power. Now if they lowered it to 120seconds then that would be a great change.
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Originally Posted by JawDropper_EU
Why would they keep it KB? Do they just want us to constantly piss off teams?
Love the changes to Lightform and Photon Seekers though. 180secs is great for that. (Although of course still massively outclassed by the WS ones). |
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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Yes, the new LF has a 50% HP/end crash. You're also correct on the new risk as tracking the LF crashes while fighting mobs. The light form change is going to make people change their playstyle. You're going to want to keep a heal on standby to deal with the crash which means one less heal to use all the time. The crash is going to cause end issues similar to the rage/hasten crashes that SS users deal with.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Does the new LF still crash? If it does, then its situational nature could be to not dying during the crash. Yes, you could wait for it to crash before jumping into a spawn, but that means paying attention and not simply barreling into spawns.
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The goal of the new LF was balancing it to eclipse. After testing this change, I feel like the Dev's found a good balance between those powers.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
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Which... blah. I *really* wish we had the puffball as a customization option. I know we can use it and swap forms, but thematically the "puffball" was *part* of my PBs - going back to being the original Kheldian form. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Light form had a new effect. It's now an aura instead of a form change.
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As an aura (that you can't really tell is there,) well... meh. Yes, it *does* take something away from my Khelds and make them less fun. (Cue the numbers people saying that makes no sense. Don't care. There's more to a character than a spreadsheet.) Yes, the benefits are nice. But it does still take something away from them as a *character* for me.
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Yes LF does crash. I just tested it out a little while ago and I lost 1/2 my hp and 1/2 my end. Now that I think about it I do not know if Essence Boost played a factor in how much HP I lost. I will check it out again when I get home from work.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Does the new LF still crash? If it does, then its situational nature could be to not dying during the crash. Yes, you could wait for it to crash before jumping into a spawn, but that means paying attention and not simply barreling into spawns.
I'm still trying to absorb all the changes in I21 (not just Kheldian) and I can't look at things myself (nothing unlocked on beta), so I don't have an opinion as of yet. |
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Keeping it as KB MAKES NO SENSE whatsoever when the DWARF form of PBs has a similar attack that does KNOCK DOWN.
The logic fails epicly on this one devs.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Uh, you are aware that Warshades need a certain amount of enemies around them in order to buff their damage and resistance to the cap? Here's a good example- I did an LRSF the other day and when we were pulling the Heroes one at a time, I had no way to buff my damage or resistance, no way to summon my pets, and no way to heal as effectively as I would under different conditions.