What is the Kheldian surprise?
This is why, when Arbiter Hawk says things like "Peacebringers have too much AoE Potential to get KnockDOWN (or KnockUP), rather than KnockBACK" ... people who actually *play* Peacebringers are left aghast and apoplectic. It's basically the equivalent of throwing a bucket of water at someone who's drowning and asking for help. It shows a fundamental disconnect between what the players perceive, and what the Devs perceive, to be at issue with an entire *EPIC* Archetype ... which people are going to have to "pay for" in CoH: Freedom.
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Quite honestly, I didn't understand the reasoning behind well over two-thirds of that post, but the one that really got under my skin was the crack about the inherent:
-Inherents - We understand many players would like the Vigilance treatment to their inherents. The Kheldian inherent powers are central enough to the AT that changing them is something that could potentially pose significant risk. Because of this, we’re not currently planning on adjusting them. |
Which is not to say that inherents are all that archetype-defining. If our inherent defines our archetype, then kill the damned thing! It's holding us back.
And it isn't like we're asking them to rewrite the thing! Did Defenders have to pay for their solo/small team buff? Hell no, they didn't! So what's wrong with giving Kheldians a similar buff WITHOUT CHANGING THE INHERENT?
The only risk is that we would actually become competitive.
Having ranted that, however, my personal preference would be the more elegant solution of trading some of the buffs given through the inherent for direct damage and resistance through our powers.
In other words, I would like to see Kheldians become more self-sufficient.
Because an inherent that requires us to team doesn't work well with an archetype that doesn't give anything proportional back to teams.
EDIT - beyond the inherent, however, I don't understand how Arbiter Hawk can look at Peacebringers and Warshades (which are under pretty much the same inherent) and turn around and say he's worried about overpowering Peacebringers!
Maybe a word or two about where he's finding all this so-called power might be in order?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Bullcrap. Pure marketing drivel. Central to the AT?! Like Vigilance isn't. Like Assassination isn't. Hell, like every other inherent in the game isn't just as central to an archetype to the same degree. |
not *all*. I could give a **** if i looked up and all my fendurs suddenly didn't have vigilance, because it really doesn't do anything for the AT outside of the solo damage buff. the same could be said for conditioning with veats or gauntlet for tanks.
i think the problem here and what A. hawk is seeing is that CB and DS do *so* much more than some other inherents and can be so powerful that he's afraid of making it more. But, as you said, i'm for taking alot of the power out of the inherent, making the ATs more self sufficient, and making the inherent do a consistent, however smaller, buff.
Did Defenders have to pay for their solo/small team buff? Hell no, they didn't! So what's wrong with giving Kheldians a similar buff WITHOUT CHANGING THE INHERENT? |
>.>
<.<
*looks at force multipliers and runs*
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Originally Posted by PC_guy
defenders aren't as OP as khelds are. clearly.
>.> <.< *looks at force multipliers and runs* |
My real question is, would making khelds even slightly "OP" really be THAT bad? Seriously, look at what brutes, and defenders, and controllers, and all these other AT's can MANAGE. Ive got a pair of friends, ones a DM/Invuln brute, the other plays a widow. They've both got billions invested into their builds, between the two of them they can all but DUO the lambda trial (They have trouble making the timer on Marauder). The brute's had me tag along for him soloing TF's, Ive even made a really funny thread about killing Praetorian Duray in the Sutter TF with a rock because he wanted to solo the thing and I got lucky enough to land the last 45 damage on him.
If its okay for them, why isn't it okay for me?
I'm not trying to demand I be THAT powerful...I'm just saying that there's a fairly large spectrum of power level to choose from up there. You don't have to worry about things being OP until PB's start soloing incarnate trials.
And thats kinda our problem...they're just so deathly afraid that any tweaks are going to turn us into Scrutfendinator's...even the smallest ones.
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But, like you said, would overpowerint Kheldians just a little bit be such a bad thing?
Especially in the current post incarnate pwnage that has become the late game.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quoting from the Bug Report forum:
Character Creation - Archetypes window
Peacebringer
Warshade
Methinks these should all have values ranging from 1-10 ... not ? values. |
And since the Devs haven't assigned any values to these parameters yet on Beta ... maybe we should help them figure out the RELATIVE strengths of Peacebringer vs Warshade for these metrics in the Character Creator. I'm not talking about Absolute Numbers here (from 1-10) ... I'm talking about PB > WS or the alternative of WS > PB.
I'll start with *MY* impressions of the disparities between PB and WS.
- Survivability: WS > PB
- Melee Damage: PB = WS
- Ranged Damage: WS > PB
- Crowd Control: WS > PB
- Support: PB > WS
- Pets: WS >>> PB
Reasonings and rationales:
Survivability: Crashless Eclipse is superior to (mini-)Crash Light Form. Stygian Circle crushes Reform Essence/Essence Boost for damage recovery in 99% of the game. Warshade Slow effects aid survival better than Defense Debuffs and (unreliable) Knockback.
Melee Damage: Peacebringer *can be* designed for melee combat, but prolific Knockback in melee range powers damages PB melee potential unnecessarily. Warshade has Orbiting Death, which combined with Mire, Inky Aspect and Gravimetric Emanation can deal a very *significant* portion of damage within (near) Melee Range with a high safety margin.
Ranged Damage: Warshade has superior options/synergies to Peacebringer powers, particularly with Warshade Control Potential (Stun stacking). Only advantage that Peacebringer has is the ability to slot Achilles' Heel Proc, which can't stack its Debuff. Slow Debuffs are more "useful" on ranged damage attacks than Defense Debuff.
Crowd Control: Warshade Mez stacks far more effective than anemic Peacebringer powers which don't synergize with each other. Warshades can Teleport Foe to break up enemy groups into manageable chunks, Peacebringers have no comparable counterpart power.
Support: Peacebringer can Heal Others and Group Fly. Warshade has no comparable "for the team" counterpart powers other than Debuffs to the enemy. Kheldian "support" is weak in absolute terms for both Peacebringers and Warshades due to lack of buffs for Teams/Leagues (other than Leadership Pool powers).
Pets: Extract Essence vs Photon Seekers? NO CONTEST.
![](http://boards.cityofheroes.com/images/icons/icon13.gif)
![](http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7840/groove1.gif)
Which is why I started that thread back in the Kheldian Forums about looking at our inherent! I agree with the sentiment that a little overpowered wouldn't be such a bad thing, but if the inherent is what's holding us back, then by damn let's nerf it in favor of direct changes to the archetype!!
But, like you said, would overpowerint Kheldians just a little bit be such a bad thing? Especially in the current post incarnate pwnage that has become the late game. |
I mean, once I21 goes live I'll cap my own resistances (sans Psi anyways), so the 10% I get from the inherent per offensive AT isn't really going to be doing anything for me; and Warshades have been enjoying Eclipse self-capped for years now.
My damage wont be capped, but Warshades are pretty consistently bumping their noggins against the damage cap from the way they talk, so for them that's another part of the inherent that they aren't really getting much out of.
Do we really need to talk about the mez prot? Really? To be honest, we do because its the exact opposite of the other two. In their cases they're piling more on top of whats already topped off, but in the mez prots case its just so little that it might as well not even be there. If you've got enough controllers/dominators to make the mez prot worth it, nothings attacking you anyway because its all locked down pretty hardcore.
For the resistance and damage portions of our inherent it looks like a lot, but in several cases we're already THERE...and its a hard cap, so its not like we're even getting reduced benefit out of it.
Lets be honest, most of what I'm pointing out here is probably more likely to get us NERFED...which should be fairly ridiculous on its own considering where we're at, but its kinda what we need. At least HALF of what we need anyways...We DO need to lose some of the resistance we've got, we need some of our +dmg% effects to be rolled into the powers naturally, we need some of what we DO have to be shuffled a bit with OTHER forms of effects. It can't just be straight cuts, and it can't just be ignoring yet more "wonk" in our powers.
I've stated several times in the past that all I really want is for my AT to make sense. I dont think we need a "back to the drawing board" overhaul, but I do believe its gonna take more than just lowering some cooldowns, and calling it a day. They're gonna have to directly play with some numbers, change some abilities focus, and skirt the cottage rule fairly hard (if not break it in some places). We need a fairly extensive tune-up, PB's more than WS's; but we both suffer from some of the same problems, even if they're coming from different sources.
Character Creation - Archetypes window
Peacebringer
Warshade
Methinks these should all have values ranging from 1-10 ... not ? values. |
![](http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7840/groove1.gif)
I don't even really get how its holding us back!
I mean, once I21 goes live I'll cap my own resistances (sans Psi anyways), so the 10% I get from the inherent per offensive AT isn't really going to be doing anything for me; and Warshades have been enjoying Eclipse self-capped for years now. My damage wont be capped, but Warshades are pretty consistently bumping their noggins against the damage cap from the way they talk, so for them that's another part of the inherent that they aren't really getting much out of. Do we really need to talk about the mez prot? Really? To be honest, we do because its the exact opposite of the other two. In their cases they're piling more on top of whats already topped off, but in the mez prots case its just so little that it might as well not even be there. If you've got enough controllers/dominators to make the mez prot worth it, nothings attacking you anyway because its all locked down pretty hardcore. For the resistance and damage portions of our inherent it looks like a lot, but in several cases we're already THERE...and its a hard cap, so its not like we're even getting reduced benefit out of it. Lets be honest, most of what I'm pointing out here is probably more likely to get us NERFED...which should be fairly ridiculous on its own considering where we're at, but its kinda what we need. At least HALF of what we need anyways...We DO need to lose some of the resistance we've got, we need some of our +dmg% effects to be rolled into the powers naturally, we need some of what we DO have to be shuffled a bit with OTHER forms of effects. It can't just be straight cuts, and it can't just be ignoring yet more "wonk" in our powers. I've stated several times in the past that all I really want is for my AT to make sense. I dont think we need a "back to the drawing board" overhaul, but I do believe its gonna take more than just lowering some cooldowns, and calling it a day. They're gonna have to directly play with some numbers, change some abilities focus, and skirt the cottage rule fairly hard (if not break it in some places). We need a fairly extensive tune-up, PB's more than WS's; but we both suffer from some of the same problems, even if they're coming from different sources. |
Freedom:
Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
>.>
<.<
.......psst! YOU! Arbiter Ghost! Yes, you! Go tell that Falconhawk guy that I'll go away and you'll never hear from me again! I only have one price:
A Kheldian Sash.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
like those tea party people say.. Take your hand off my resistance.. dont nerf it. just rework the inherant so we get benefit from it solo
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It's been suggested before, turn our shields into defense rather than resists. At the lower levels it helps with the lack of mez prot because the mez's just aren't HITTING as often, at the higher levels it doesn't have us squished up against the resist cap from our Tier 9's, our inherent, our shields, and any buffer's in the party who happen to have taken a resistance buffing set. Shining for Ranged or Smash/Lethal. Thermal for AoE or Fire/Cold. Quantum for Melee or Energy/Negative. We lose 22.5% resistance (Unenhanced) gain 7-12% defense instead. Lightform's only getting us to 52.5% (Again unenhanced). If the idea someone else had went through to lower the resistance on lightform but gain Psi also went through...that'd be about 35% resists to all...unenhanced so that'd go up. 7-12% defense, with 35% resist, and gaining 10% resist from the offensives on our team is gonna give our resistance cap some breathing room to accomodate not only resist buffs from our inherent, but also from teammates. It makes the shields useful, keeps dwarf's "purpose" (resisty, high HP, tank) helps lower level kheldians, and doesnt really cost us anything because we didn't "lose" anything, it just shifted things around a bit, either gaining psi at a slight loss from other resistance types, or gaining defense instead. Overall, we're a stronger AT for it because we're layering our protection. Potentially OP? Yeah a bit, but not to such a degree that we're gonna start soloing Incarnate trials anytime soon.
Admittedly? Thats from a Peacebringer's perspective, I can't really judge what would be required out of Warshade's. Id say Eclipse should have to have a smaller target limit put in place, and I know WS's would have a hissy over such a suggestion, but sometimes you gotta give an inch to gain a mile. Besides, with the shields becoming defense that's three less LotG fillers you have to take from power pools...
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Damn. Am I the only one here getting the impression that - in spite of even the current changes - the developers are all wishing HEAT's would just go away?
>.> <.< .......psst! YOU! Arbiter Ghost! Yes, you! Go tell that Falconhawk guy that I'll go away and you'll never hear from me again! I only have one price: A Kheldian Sash. |
I don't know though. On the one hand, Arachnos got rated, we really should get rated. On the other, I can understand the ?'s because we are intended to be a little more malleable than everyone else. They could at least fix the description to take out the implication that we don't get anything from teaming with other kheld's anymore.
Currently they are both level 53 with a mix of Common IO and SO slotting. Just starting to work on sets for them. I think the dom just got Numinas to help with end issues.
Pre 50s my Dom died alot more than the WS. With no heal and lower resists but more damage its not unexpected. Team composition matters on teams with a 1-2 buffers the WS is pretty much unkillable. It takes 3-4 to push the Dominator to that level.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
I'd definitely say that PBs are more survivable than a WS, especially when you take into account the LF change. Melee damage is also stronger for PBs imo. Ranged damage is about equal I'd say, but Pets/Control are much stronger for the WS. Support goes to PBs, for whatever that's worth.
VIRTUE
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"Elec/Ice. Nice. Holy <@*&$@#!> =) You're like the CoH equivalent of those bdsm people who hang from the ceiling on hooks!"
-Plasmar
Agahnim Dragmire- Warshade
"(You spin space webs. =D)"
-Paladin
I'd definitely say that PBs are more survivable than a WS, especially when you take into account the LF change. Melee damage is also stronger for PBs imo. Ranged damage is about equal I'd say, but Pets/Control are much stronger for the WS. Support goes to PBs, for whatever that's worth.
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Peacebringer Analysis
Warshade Analysis
Check'em out yourself, if you like. They take the current changes into account. But here's the skinny on survivability:
Peacebringer:
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 165
Dwarf: 331
Nova: 106
Fatal Burst:
Human: 5387
Dwarf: 10773
Nova: 3859
Warshade:
Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876
Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506
Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868
Fatal Burst:
Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981
Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169
Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941
Taking the average survivability of the 1 foe vs 10 foes figures on the warshade, you've got scores that are roughly four times higher than a Peacebringer's.
And don't try to convince anyone that eclipse is actually dangerous to use. You can stealth in, stun and reposition the spawn, grab an eclipse and mire all in complete saftety. AND eclipse gives resistance from psionic, which - by the time you're 38 - is rather prevalent among Arachnos, the carnies, Longbow, CoT, the Rikti, iTrials, etc.
But hey- feel free to prove the numbers wrong.
EDIT - And the point about melee damage is kind of moot when the ranged damage of a warshade so far outstrips it. Your point about support might have merit if we're talking about heals alone, but the secondary effects both stun and slow enemies to the point that heals are less necessary. Besides. You're talking about one heal other clone. One power does not make a support role.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I feel like you put limited emphasis on the fact that LF is a more dependable power, Joe. I agree that the Psi hole needs to be patched but in team vs. AV situations LF is superior... There's also no human error to take into account with LF. A bit of lag at the wrong time, and Eclipse can be totally botched (not an uncommon occurrence during end game content.)
I feel like you put limited emphasis on the fact that LF is a more dependable power, Joe. I agree that the Psi hole needs to be patched but in team vs. AV situations LF is superior... There's also no human error to take into account with LF. A bit of lag at the wrong time, and Eclipse can be totally botched (not an uncommon occurrence during end game content.)
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About the only time Light Form is superior is when your facing things like cimerorans' collective defense buffs or massive tohit debuffs, and even then a dwarf mire will take care of the problem. Bind Eclipse to your human form bind and it goes off before you can take the alpha - EVEN IF YOU"RE MEZZED when you drop form.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
people who are saying light form is a more dependable power:
have you actually tried using the new version of it in perma/close to perma?
i don't understand how someone could say this if they had experienced the crash firsthand. avoiding the crash and ending up with little endurance after fighting in tf or x8 situations where you actually have to contribute to a fight is nigh impossible, and recovering from it so you can maintain light form without being completely disabled requires you to give up one of your incarnate slots to do so for extended periods of time. and that's only if you have it significantly perma'd in. without that it's even worse.
please don't forget about the crash because it really is that significant.
Thank you for wording this so well. I have been trying to put down in words why this lack of change rankles me, and you've done it perfectly. I have said before that knockback is great mitigation... for enemies. Now the devs have flat out agreed: knockback, by design, is used to limit player damage.
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Ranged knockbacks (yes even targeted AoEs for the few who are still in la-la land) don't cause radial knockback. The only way to get them to is, you guessed it, stand in PBAoE position, either with a Targeted or by jousting a cone.
Find a post where the developers said ranged knockbacks rein in damage, or for Pete's sake stop taking what they say so far out of context. You might as well flat out lie about what they said.
Just to expound, lest the ignorance has lent itself to lysis:
The devs didn't say knockback would rein in damage, one dev said turning a melee power's KB to KD would increase damage.
...and because dead horses deserver a good whooping
Ranged knockback when used even semiintelligently can add oodles of damage potential, specifically by mitigating incoming damage and keeping enemies against a wall or in a corner. Energy Blasters have known this to be true for years. I can't believe it's still debated after all this time. Enemies who are not mezzed in some manner will run around and run away. Knockback used inapproriately can slow things down, of course, but at least with PBs you've always been restricted and should have gotten some idea of how to play the game before you rolled out.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
KB can be good or bad. In most of my experience, when something requires forethought and attention to be good, but requires no thought and button mashing to be bad, you assume it's bad.
I've had too many mobs knocked into walls - and thus unattackable, occasionally requiring a petition to finish missions - to be shown otherwise. If you assume other people you team with are idiots, you don't want them to have KB and you can be happy to be proven wrong.
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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There. This is quoting out of context.
![]() KB can be good or bad. In most of my experience, when something requires forethought and attention to be good, but requires no thought and button mashing to be bad, you assume it's bad. I've had too many mobs knocked into walls - and thus unattackable, occasionally requiring a petition to finish missions - to be shown otherwise. If you assume other people you team with are idiots, you don't want them to have KB and you can be happy to be proven wrong. |
think about it this way: in a team you don't spend time carefully positioning yourself on the edge of each enemy group, perfectly trying to get that ~golden angle~ where you knock them back into a corner for massive damage and clumping.
instead the general plan is very much bum rushing everything to death, just hopping into the next group one after the other. in the 10 seconds of positioning and 10 seconds of recharge for your next mega-special solar flare a competent team will have already have reamed the mob and moved on to the next one. well i guess maybe not since you probably slowed them down by knocking the enemies away and leaving them unsaturated for the pain train (read: not your character)
knockback can be useful, but if in the large majority of cases it's detrimental to your character's specifically designed playstyle (melee with significant knockback..?) or the team then it's kinda bad.
Find a post where the developers said ranged knockbacks rein in damage, or for Pete's sake stop taking what they say so far out of context. You might as well flat out lie about what they said.
Just to expound, lest the ignorance has lent itself to lysis: The devs didn't say knockback would rein in damage, one dev said turning a melee power's KB to KD would increase damage. |
you're ignoring the real part of contention in the quote and what everyone is taking a serious facepalm to:
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
-Solar Flare - Not going to change knockback into knockdown at this time. While many of you are saying It should do what Foot Stomp does!,Peacebringers have more AoE damage potential than Super Strength characters. When looking at the PBs whole toolkit as a unit, rather than at individual powers, we think theyre in pretty good shape after the changes that have already been made.
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Comparing my WS to my fire/fire/fire dominator, I would say they are fairly close in damage but I would give the edge to the dominator. The Dom has more single target, control and Mez protection but the Warshade is much tougher. Its a fairly reasonable tradeoff.
I certainly appreciate Smiling_Joe and Grey Pilgrim keeping this topic alive for PBs ![]() My first fix for PBs would be to change KB to KD. I don't see why that is so hard to change. |
Warshades are in a better boat for mezzing, but I wouldn't say they're on par with a Dominator. I'll grant that they're probably good enough there, though. Damage... it's harder to say. Depends on what your settings are, etc. I'd say I would need a spreadsheet comparison of the two. Anyone know what some proven DPS numbers are for Dominators? We could compare those with Joe's Warshade numbers easily.
Of course, Cosmic Balance can muddy this comparison slightly for Peacebringers as well. The problem there is that I don't think there is any set damage level I can depend on as a Peacebringer, and I don't necessarily like the AT being balanced around that. As I have said before, it's better for us to have more guaranteed performance solo and on small teams, with lower buff numbers from Cosmic Balance. The inherent is nice and cool, but it's still designed with an 8 man team in mind (and we've all discussed whether it buffs as well as it could since then). To put it simply, Dominators work well solo or on a team of any size, whereas Kheldians are all over.
Status Resists? But dwarf form already gives that, to the tune of 155%. The problem with Dwarf Form is that its attacks are too damned slow for the damage they do, and the resulting damage levels are too damned low to justify the fiery aura resistance levels.
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By status resists, I meant slows, end drains, etc. I thought those were thought of as status ailments, compared to mez. Dwarf really could use those. And as for Dwarf's damage... yeah. It takes forever to drop a boss, a problem I don't have on my Tanks at all. Not sure if this is a Cosmic Balance issue or what, but I feel like Dwarf should at least have the ST damage to keep up with a tank, it's not like it is that huge (and Dwarf is supposed to be on par with a Tank).
Last but not least, I saw the rating thing before looking at this thread, via Dev Digest. Question marks by our capabilities are not clear, nor do they show what we should be able to do. Other ATs vary a fair amount by powerset, and the Devs should be able to give a ballpark for those numbers.
I'm startled that they think the current question marks are clear to anyone. A new player would just be confused, and older ones would think it's a bug. I'm not going to go to "the devs do not know what Kheldians are capable of, but it certainly doesn't look good that they could even fix a rough amount (which is all those numbers mean, anyway).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
<some words were here before>
knockback can be useful, but if in the large majority of cases it's detrimental to your character's specifically designed playstyle (melee with significant knockback..?) or the team then it's kinda bad. |
I just am willing to concede that intelligently-used KB can be beneficial, despite the large majority of cases where I'd rather the person doorsit because it would waste less of the team's time than their insistence on using high KB powers that knock mobs in key groups or on defeat all missions out of the walls and prevent you from attacking them for long periods of time if someone doesn't happen to have Teleport Foe (or Starless Step, since this is a Kheld thread).
Edit: Also, the bolded, huge text in your quote about PBs having more AoE damage potential than Super Strength characters is true in the same manner that Stalkers do more damage than Brutes and Scrappers: if you cherry-pick the scenario and ignore all other possibilities. I can come up with a very poor Super Strength Tanker that only has Footstomp for AoE that will do less AoE damage than an average Nova form. >.>
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Well, that's just it. I'm not wanting to "nerf" our resistance...not really anyways...I'm just wanting to turn the HUGE amount of excess we have into something else. Defense, Regen, SOMETHING...
It's been suggested before, turn our shields into defense rather than resists. At the lower levels it helps with the lack of mez prot because the mez's just aren't HITTING as often, at the higher levels it doesn't have us squished up against the resist cap from our Tier 9's, our inherent, our shields, and any buffer's in the party who happen to have taken a resistance buffing set. Shining for Ranged or Smash/Lethal. Thermal for AoE or Fire/Cold. Quantum for Melee or Energy/Negative. We lose 22.5% resistance (Unenhanced) gain 7-12% defense instead. Lightform's only getting us to 52.5% (Again unenhanced). If the idea someone else had went through to lower the resistance on lightform but gain Psi also went through...that'd be about 35% resists to all...unenhanced so that'd go up. 7-12% defense, with 35% resist, and gaining 10% resist from the offensives on our team is gonna give our resistance cap some breathing room to accomodate not only resist buffs from our inherent, but also from teammates. It makes the shields useful, keeps dwarf's "purpose" (resisty, high HP, tank) helps lower level kheldians, and doesnt really cost us anything because we didn't "lose" anything, it just shifted things around a bit, either gaining psi at a slight loss from other resistance types, or gaining defense instead. Overall, we're a stronger AT for it because we're layering our protection. Potentially OP? Yeah a bit, but not to such a degree that we're gonna start soloing Incarnate trials anytime soon. Admittedly? Thats from a Peacebringer's perspective, I can't really judge what would be required out of Warshade's. Id say Eclipse should have to have a smaller target limit put in place, and I know WS's would have a hissy over such a suggestion, but sometimes you gotta give an inch to gain a mile. Besides, with the shields becoming defense that's three less LotG fillers you have to take from power pools... Traitor! I don't know though. On the one hand, Arachnos got rated, we really should get rated. On the other, I can understand the ?'s because we are intended to be a little more malleable than everyone else. They could at least fix the description to take out the implication that we don't get anything from teaming with other kheld's anymore. |
nah keep my shields resistance....
Freedom:
Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
people who are saying light form is a more dependable power:
have you actually tried using the new version of it in perma/close to perma? i don't understand how someone could say this if they had experienced the crash firsthand. avoiding the crash and ending up with little endurance after fighting in tf or x8 situations where you actually have to contribute to a fight is nigh impossible, and recovering from it so you can maintain light form without being completely disabled requires you to give up one of your incarnate slots to do so for extended periods of time. and that's only if you have it significantly perma'd in. without that it's even worse. please don't forget about the crash because it really is that significant. |
imho whats left to look at is
inherent
dwarf
nova..
human form pb as it stands right now is golden....
Freedom:
Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
::mumbles incoherently to self::
The problem is that the cracks are already being caulked - caulked with damage dealt by other archetypes.
But there's a fundamental difference in perspective also at work. We - as veteran kheldian players - tend to look a the archetype through glasses that have been colored by the late game (to say nothing of incarnate content), and those testing and changing them have to look at the entire leveling experience - but quite often have experienced the lower levels much more recently than we.
Read that as: they just rolled one up and leveled it up or level bumped it.
For the first 25 levels, Kheldians are competitive. They're even impressive, blooming early with Nova and Dwarf able to substitute for the slotting crunch.
Warshades still have a place in the late game due to the aoe damage, stacking mezzes and pure resistance-capped survivability they bring. Peacebringers, on the other hand, don't have that. At 26 Warshades get Unchain Essence - a mini nuke that carries a stun. Peacebringers get Solar Flare - a power whose knockback has been outed as an intentional limiting factor on Peacebringer damage.
Over the next few levels before 32 Warshades get a toggle stun aura and a spawn-repositioning stun/knockback cone. Peacebringers get a phase shift and an aid other clone.
By the time each gets their pet power (and we all know the disparities between them) the gap between the two archetypes is yawning.
While other archetypes (not just warshades) are getting the powers that bring them to the fullness of power, Peacebringers are getting fillers.
The incarnate game is another story, though. Not just Peacebringers are getting left out in the cold, here. More and more it seems like the new incarnate powers are forcing people into a brute-like playstyle, and incarnate brutes and scrappers are beginning to assume the role formerly held by fire tanks and blasters in the before-time when there was no aggro or target cap and enhancements could be six-slotted.
But that's a topic for another thread.
(and yes, that was a Mad Max reference buried in that last sentence)
And (once again), this isn't as much of an issue with Black Dwarf, since it can mire all on its own. (something else that has always stuck in my craw)
And as far as psi resists, I don't understand white dwarf not having psi resists, quite frankly. Eclipse, Dark Sustenance and Cosmic Balance both give psi resistance, so there is at least precedent for some way to plug that hole, but Peacebringers - with their lower survivability and weaker damage - are forced to team with at least four damage dealers to get it an any meaningful amounts? And what good does it do when those four damage dealers can mitigate that psi damage through direct damage for you?
Black Dwarf, in contrast to White Dwarf's tanker, plays much more like a heavy scrapper. Dark Nova.... well okay you've got me there. Nova=blaster, regardless of color tint.
My point is that Peacebringers and Warshades do get different things from comparable forms - and those differences ought to be hilighted IMHO.
But I don't expect that it will happen before. (or ever happen, for that matter).
I should add what I mean by competitive. I think human form could be competitive with dominators if the KB was reduced more to KD (not necessarily in all powers) and Pulsar was made a guaranteed Mag 3. Probably also an ability for WS and PB players to stack with their AOE mez and ST mez as well (since both of their STs are hold). Damage would also need to be looked at there as well, because Dominator sets do more damage and more mez, from what I can see. However, even if all of the above were done, Doms would still be better at their jobs as they will have more crowd control tools. Kheldians would just be similar and at least on a level to compete.
Scrappers would be a different direction, but again, I'm not thinking Kheldians have to be better than those respective ATs in their form. Just competitive. Human form certainly does not compete for damage with Scrappers as it currently stands.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies