Also, I always disagreed with Castle that Dwarf Form HAD to have mez protection to make it viable. Other things would do that, if he had been willing to do them. Things like an autohit taunt, a higher HP cap (beyond what Essence Boost gets us), some debuff resistance, etc., could make it a stronger Tank form and better than Human. If that is what you wanted.
To make each of the forms viable from each other, they just need to make them excel at what they do, and make those things different enough to make them different choices. The above does it for Dwarf, and some kind of damage boost (to the actual powers, not our damage boost... so either to the actual damage mods, or maybe a DoT or chance for a proc) to Nova could make it better. And making Human form work more like a Dominator could make it different enough and viable enough for that. It's probably too late to take out its ranged powers, but I probably would have limited those more when the AT was designed, if I had a hand in it.
The main point is that balance is possible between the three, and mez protection does not have to be the crux of that balance.
*added*
Joe, Hawk joked around that they do indeed read the forums on their own, so we shouldn't get too depressed about things. I do know that they don't necessarily see everything (I PM'd Synapse to point out a thread in the Blaster forums that I started on a possible change to crashless nukes, and it sounded like he hadn't known about it yet), but I know Hawk has been watching things here in the Beta forums, and he has read the Kheldian forums a lot.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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An autohit taunt would be a start, and a higher hp cap would be nice, but the only debuff resistance that would help a dwarf is damres debuff resistance, and a dwarf's built in resistance already provides that. I'm not terribly interested in regeneration debuff resistance, tbh. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Also, I always disagreed with Castle that Dwarf Form HAD to have mez protection to make it viable. Other things would do that, if he had been willing to do them. Things like an autohit taunt, a higher HP cap (beyond what Essence Boost gets us), some debuff resistance, etc., could make it a stronger Tank form and better than Human. If that is what you wanted.
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Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
As others have said what makes Nova and Dwarf weak on PBs at higher levels is lack of damage compared to what other ATs can do. I'd love it if we could click on Inner Light in all the forms if that's possible. What would be wrong with simply taking the chance for psi damage proc out of the taunt and making it a secondary effect of WD Antagonize which would fire every time and that could also be slotted to increase its damage? Or how about having Antagonize also give us a Build Up or at least a chance of one?
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I don't think its entirely impatience (thats some of it but not all). The sheer lack of communication between devs and players is a very very scary thing. The whole bit about pbs having more aoe potential than SS characters more than shows that. If we got someone, anyone, to come in here and start discussing this stuff with us, what we want, what they want, what is actually do-able, what isn't ect. that'd be enough to stifle me until whenever the devs can get around to it, because that would atleast offer some form of solid hope as opposed to the horrible opposite of uncertainty.
| We're just (understandably) impatient and wanting it to happen now. The sooner they fix things, the better, but I guess we do need to be patient. And make good cases for what more is needed: how the AT is not working well currently, besides how it compares to other ATs. We're doing better there now, just reminding us all what works and what does not. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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The question isn't one of movement speed (we can teleport, after all, in Dwarf) but in -recharge. Getting slowed when you only have 3 attacks to begin with is murder.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Also, I always disagreed with Castle that Dwarf Form HAD to have mez protection to make it viable. Other things would do that, if he had been willing to do them. Things like an autohit taunt, a higher HP cap (beyond what Essence Boost gets us), some debuff resistance, etc., could make it a stronger Tank form and better than Human. If that is what you wanted.
To make each of the forms viable from each other, they just need to make them excel at what they do, and make those things different enough to make them different choices. The above does it for Dwarf, and some kind of damage boost (to the actual powers, not our damage boost... so either to the actual damage mods, or maybe a DoT or chance for a proc) to Nova could make it better. And making Human form work more like a Dominator could make it different enough and viable enough for that. It's probably too late to take out its ranged powers, but I probably would have limited those more when the AT was designed, if I had a hand in it. The main point is that balance is possible between the three, and mez protection does not have to be the crux of that balance. |
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
An autohit taunt would be a start, and a higher hp cap would be nice, but the only debuff resistance that would help a dwarf is damres debuff resistance, and a dwarf's built in resistance already provides that. I'm not terribly interested in regeneration debuff resistance, tbh.
Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do. |
I suggested earlier that Nova and Dwarf should have a buff that required some ramp up time (Either caused by the forms attacks or maybe just from time being switched in) but would last between form switches that I feel the need to advertise again. Dont know what it'd be, but something similar to the purpose of the form in question is probably best. At the time I figured something like fiery embrace but with energy for nova and defense for dwarf, but anything damage/protection oriented would work. Recharge and Regen maybe, or that debuff resistance we're talking about...just as long as its not just more +dmg% and resistance...
It'd not only encourage taking the forms, but make them valuable to have for more than just the form they grant. SYNERGY! Ive preached it before, ill preach it again.
If the Dwarf forms got endurance drain Resistance, I would be beyond happy.
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I agree that a "ground up" rebuild may not be popular with devs or players but at this rate with PB's I begin to wonder if a complete overhaul isn't the answer. Yes WS don't need much in the way of tune up. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't think a "Ground up" revamp is needed, or would be welcome anywhere (dev or player side.)
I do think there's going to need to be a fair bit of work regardless, and there'll be a lot of back and forth between PBs and WS - and I don't want to see either side *nerfed* as a result. Peacebringers should still have, for instance, the "reliable" buffs versus the Warshade "roller coaster." I will, to be blunt, be wary of this version of the powers team. I find it amusing that since the AOE buffs, I've heard (fairly frequently) that buffing is at times even more frustrating than it was before, for instance. And just looking at the comments on humanform *now* making Dwarf fairly pointless - well, "Castle was right," it seems fair to say, when it comes to humanform mez protection (given perma-able lf.) He didn't want to give it to humanform in order to keep Dwarf from being obsoleted. *looks up a few posts.* Yeah... I'm half wondering if they're having to re-learn lessons or something. There are things I appreciate - I'm not just here to tear them down or anything. But it just doesn't feel like solid footing with them yet. |
Perhaps changing human forms' beam/blaster attacks to psi attacks like mez or holds, keep the melee attacks in human form, tune up Photon Seekers and Pulsar, knockback becomes KNOCKDOWN for many of PB's powers, Nova form's beam attacks all get a damage boost but at the cost of greater endurance burn, Dwarf keeps the melee attacks albeit stronger then human form's, and perhaps an enhanced version of Dawn Strike with the penalty that if you use it in dwarfmode, you burn up your stamina and revert to human to form. Also let Dwarf mode have end drain and slow resistances that the other 2 forms do not have. Also perhaps Dwarf mode could have a fury bar?
Mez protection: as PB and WS are basically two beings merged into one that means technically there are two minds to be mezzed/controlled by enemies. That alone should give a mez resistance to all forms.
The problem is that Kheldians don't need to be tweaked or adjusted, they need a page-one rewrite. They need to be completely rethought. That won't happen, though, so the question isn't whether or not they'll be broken, only how and where.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Kheldians|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
An autohit taunt would be a start, and a higher hp cap would be nice, but the only debuff resistance that would help a dwarf is damres debuff resistance, and a dwarf's built in resistance already provides that. I'm not terribly interested in regeneration debuff resistance, tbh.
Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do. |
White Dwarf Antagonize and Black Dwarf Antagonize now automatically hit when used against NPCs.
Ask and you shall receive, apparently. Can I have some cake?
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
an autohit taunt would be a start
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Originally Posted by Aug. 16 Patch Notes
Kheldians
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Teeheeheehee! And I am offically onboard and excited about these changes to Kheldians.
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
Witch! Burn the witch!
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Excellent! *does the White Dwarf happy Taunt dance* 
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
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COUNTER-PROPOSAL:|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
 The Kheldian specific IO's look totally silly. and mostly useless. |
- Human Form: +Global Endurance Reduction and +Global Endurance Modification
- Nova Form: +Global Range Enhancement
- Dwarf Form: +Global Heal Enhancement
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
*IF* Light Form is being given -3 Mag Protection vs All Mez, I would (strongly) recommend to Arbiter Hawk (et al.) that instead of doing that the Three Shield Powers for Peacebringers should be given -1 Mag Protection vs All Mez *each* and Light Form grant no Mez Protection.
Now ... what would be really interesting is if Light Form were synergized with Cosmic Balance such that a Peacebringer, with Light Form up, gains an additional -0.5 Mag Protection vs All Mez for each Teammate, regardless of AT, within Cosmic Balance's radius of effect, from Cosmic Balance, while Light Form is in effect. This would require the addition of only a single additional "buff line" to Cosmic Balance with a conditional of (when in Light Form) in order to achieve substantially the same effect in Teams as the -3 Mag Protection vs All Mez that has been coded into Light Form for Beta. The major difference is that if the Mez Protect of Light Form is "keyed" through Cosmic Balance (and thus, Teaming), it won't overshadow the Mez Protection aspect of White Dwarf to the same extent in Solo Play, and thus Light Form will be "less" of an obsoleting factor for Dwarf Form than as currently proposed for Issue 21.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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We talk with our devs a lot more than in other MMOs, so keep that in mind. And they're never going to tell us everything, even what they are planning for the future. I was surprised that Synapse said he was thinking about adjusting the crashing for nukes, since it's obviously something he is just thinking about doing (or so I gathered from the dev chat summary). Whereas the more common approach is to not say anything until it's actually in a build.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
I don't think its entirely impatience (thats some of it but not all). The sheer lack of communication between devs and players is a very very scary thing. The whole bit about pbs having more aoe potential than SS characters more than shows that. If we got someone, anyone, to come in here and start discussing this stuff with us, what we want, what they want, what is actually do-able, what isn't ect. that'd be enough to stifle me until whenever the devs can get around to it, because that would atleast offer some form of solid hope as opposed to the horrible opposite of uncertainty.
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Heck, we just got a couple of adjustments to Kheld powers in the newest build on test out of the blue. We're just going to have to deal with the uncertainty and know that we're being looked at. I do hope Hawk will be a little more talkative at times, but we're not going to get much more than we do now.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
An autohit taunt would be a start, and a higher hp cap would be nice, but the only debuff resistance that would help a dwarf is damres debuff resistance, and a dwarf's built in resistance already provides that. I'm not terribly interested in regeneration debuff resistance, tbh.
Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do. |
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Originally Posted by Venture
The problem is that Kheldians don't need to be tweaked or adjusted, they need a page-one rewrite. They need to be completely rethought. That won't happen, though, so the question isn't whether or not they'll be broken, only how and where.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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It's spread a bit too thin that way. The mag 3 isn't that profound, it's a little, but JUST a little. I don't know about anyone else, but I DO have the shields, and I only toggle what I know I'll need for the groups I'm fighting. Typically shining and quantum...switching it for thermal if I know the group has alot of fire/cold. That would leave me at mag 2 or mag 1 most of the time. The boosted mez prot by the team from lightform would help, but I don't think it really needs all that shuffling and spreading about...
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
*IF* Light Form is being given -3 Mag Protection vs All Mez, I would (strongly) recommend to Arbiter Hawk (et al.) that instead of doing that the Three Shield Powers for Peacebringers should be given -1 Mag Protection vs All Mez *each* and Light Form grant no Mez Protection.
Now ... what would be really interesting is if Light Form were synergized with Cosmic Balance such that a Peacebringer, with Light Form up, gains an additional -0.5 Mag Protection vs All Mez for each Teammate, regardless of AT, within Cosmic Balance's radius of effect, from Cosmic Balance, while Light Form is in effect. This would require the addition of only a single additional "buff line" to Cosmic Balance with a conditional of (when in Light Form) in order to achieve substantially the same effect in Teams as the -3 Mag Protection vs All Mez that has been coded into Light Form for Beta. The major difference is that if the Mez Protect of Light Form is "keyed" through Cosmic Balance (and thus, Teaming), it won't overshadow the Mez Protection aspect of White Dwarf to the same extent in Solo Play, and thus Light Form will be "less" of an obsoleting factor for Dwarf Form than as currently proposed for Issue 21. |
Suggestion for White Dwarf: since it lacks a single-target attack which Black Dwarf has, how about another single-target attack?
Something along the lines of...
White Dwarf CrushEssentially it's taking Heavy Mallet and adding a Follow Up effect and the PB -defense component to it, bringing up the single-target damage of the form by not only adding an attack but allowing the form to provide +tohit and +dam in a single-target attack. Yes, it's "more like a Warshade" but it still preserves the "stronger against a single target, weaker against a crowd" differentiation.
- Damage: 55.61 Smashing (scale 1.0), 71.18 Energy (scale 1.28), 126.79 total
- Endurance: 11.856
- Recharge: 12 seconds
- Additional Effects:
- Self
- +9% To-Hit for 10 seconds
- +27% Damage for 10 seconds
- Target
- 13.6 sec Taunt (mag 4)
- -10% Defense on target
- 0.67 Knockback (70% chance)
This would also be a good time to update Black Dwarf Drain to give it the Siphon Life treatment, along with Essence Drain.
Then, in both White and Black Dwarf, add endurance drain and recovery resistance to the toggle, similar to Murky Cloud; also go with Joe's suggestion of rolling the +damage from Nova form for both Kheld ATs into the actual powers... without touching the recharges, which would normally be done.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I for one would like to see Nova and Dwarf Forms simply cost zero END to maintain, just like Hide for Stalkers. At zero END cost, the toggle(s) will not drop when END is drained to zero. Unfortunately, that would mean that you would (probably) have to take End Rdx/End Mod enhancements and sets *OUT* of the permitted slotting for Nova and Dwarf Forms, which I suppose plenty of people would consider "disappointing" since they like to slot Performance Shifter into these powers.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Slow/-recharge resistance, as well -end resistance would both be great helps to Dwarf form (I was end drained out of Dwarf form on a recent Lambda, and Council really put a crimp in how quickly your powers recharge with all their snipers and galaxies with slows). Both would make the form have some nice boosts over what Human form gets.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Not too keen on those. The end reduc would be moderately helpful for Human form, but I think there are other bonuses that would be more helpful. Range would do nothing for me in Nova form, either. For Dwarf, were you thinking +HP, or greater healing from the healing powers? The latter could be helpful, but again, not as much as others.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
COUNTER-PROPOSAL:
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
I for one would like to see Nova and Dwarf Forms simply cost zero END to maintain, just like Hide for Stalkers. At zero END cost, the toggle(s) will not drop when END is drained to zero. Unfortunately, that would mean that you would (probably) have to take End Rdx/End Mod enhancements and sets *OUT* of the permitted slotting for Nova and Dwarf Forms, which I suppose plenty of people would consider "disappointing" since they like to slot Performance Shifter into these powers.
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I dunno, I guess I'd be okay with it if other things were working better in our powers, though. It has seemed odd to me that the forms need to have an end requirement, though.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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you're viewing white dwarf as a mez protection form, when instead of attempting to nerf new strengths given to humanform there should be proposals to buff dwarf form so it doesn't only function as a mez protection tool but instead as an actual tanking form, which means... more resists, more defense, actual damage instead of the really awful damage they have right now.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
*IF* Light Form is being given -3 Mag Protection vs All Mez, I would (strongly) recommend to Arbiter Hawk (et al.) that instead of doing that the Three Shield Powers for Peacebringers should be given -1 Mag Protection vs All Mez *each* and Light Form grant no Mez Protection.
Now ... what would be really interesting is if Light Form were synergized with Cosmic Balance such that a Peacebringer, with Light Form up, gains an additional -0.5 Mag Protection vs All Mez for each Teammate, regardless of AT, within Cosmic Balance's radius of effect, from Cosmic Balance, while Light Form is in effect. This would require the addition of only a single additional "buff line" to Cosmic Balance with a conditional of (when in Light Form) in order to achieve substantially the same effect in Teams as the -3 Mag Protection vs All Mez that has been coded into Light Form for Beta. The major difference is that if the Mez Protect of Light Form is "keyed" through Cosmic Balance (and thus, Teaming), it won't overshadow the Mez Protection aspect of White Dwarf to the same extent in Solo Play, and thus Light Form will be "less" of an obsoleting factor for Dwarf Form than as currently proposed for Issue 21. |
we need to take the "nerf" mindset out of the discussion and focus on buffs, things that would increase the functions of each of the forms not only in relation to the other forms, but -other archetypes-, which is the more important aspect of proposing changes.
umm, stuff that has been suggested that i really like that i think would vastly improve peacebringers outside of hard number increases would be:
- knockback to knockdown on melee attacks. pretty sure this has been gone over more times than anyone can bare to stand so yeah...
- -res on attacks instead of -def (or both?), but has to be a significant amount or else it's just another dumb pointless thing. this increases team functionality, damage output and gives peacebringers team functionality in their forms in different manners while still retaining effectiveness regardless of position. more on this later in the list in regards to improved functionality (and variability)
- cosmic balance buffs being two way, with team members recieving the buffs they give the peacebringer or whatever variation of that. it's something that would take away the "leech" image of peacebringers while obviously allowing them to actually be beneficial to a team in a direct buff manner. (still find it comedic villain epics are better teammates than their hero counterparts)
- dwarf form vastly improved. i'm humanform only but from what i can tell they suffer in every single aspect, so they need to function better as a tank period. to not affect the other forms while still remaining effective i think would require a pretty major buffing to them with things like:
resist against end drain/recharge slow/status effects that aren't mezzes basically
a natural defense component to the form, as without it humanform will straight up be more survivable regardless of what other changes there are due to the lack of toggles for dwarf form.
improved numbers on their attacks period. this isn't something you can work around, because even if the -res got implemented into peacebringer attacks i don't believe dwarfs would be able to output significant enough amounts of damage to mitigate enemies by death (an actual important aspect of tankers!)
i think with these kinda changes they can function as an actual tanker more or less, by having significantly more survivability than humanform while providing more to a team than simply surviving through the above -res (better than bruising as to make up for lack of attacks?)
- nova form's changes i think would be very numbers based, with tweaks on their attacks recharge time, damage and whatnot.. like dwarf i don't know the specifics of nova form but it always seemed like they lost steam because their damage wasn't enough in both numbers and speed... with the -res aspect they'd be able to do a persistent amount of AOE damage that would ideally outperform humanform AOE damage by a significant amount.
i guess overall i believe a -res component to peacebringer attacks would open up a very wide avenue of team functionality across all three forms.. i don't think humanform needs much more outside of some numbers tweaks.
edit: actually overall i think it would open up a larger variability of playstyles for peacebringers, since the powers taken would supplement the squid/dwarf forms in a very direct manner while still remaining effective in humanform. i think it'd even allow for a different humanform style of play to work, with a kind of defender-like debuff playstyle by taking only the blasts (including aoe, which would obviously still do significantly less damage than the nova ones) but also having the survivability aspects of the humanform.
i'm sure a lot of these have been suggested several times but i think in conjunction they'd allow for peacebringers to be a very flexible playstyle archetype. the hard numbers would obviously determine if it were "overpowered or underpowered" or whatever, but i think the changes suggested would be good at establishing peacebringers as an interesting and unique AT that people would actually want to play.
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I disagree, my Dwarf would kill for resistances to -end and -rech. Especially the -end.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
An autohit taunt would be a start, and a higher hp cap would be nice, but the only debuff resistance that would help a dwarf is damres debuff resistance, and a dwarf's built in resistance already provides that. I'm not terribly interested in regeneration debuff resistance, tbh.
Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do. |
Also, you know what'd be lovely?
If the Dwarf's resist cap got raised to 90%. Give us a reason to go Dwarf even if something (Eclipse?) has us res-capped.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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I dont think they can raise those individually like that. Has to be the same cap for the whole character.
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Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
I disagree, my Dwarf would kill for resistances to -end and -rech. Especially the -end.
Also, you know what'd be lovely? If the Dwarf's resist cap got raised to 90%. Give us a reason to go Dwarf even if something (Eclipse?) has us res-capped. |
85% resistance is plenty.
DAMMIT PEOPLE! Quit posting so fast!!
The Dwarf and Nova ones could be okay if they reworked caps there, but I'm not sure if that is easier than adjusting the IO, or what. Caps would be helpful to all, probably. Dwarf could at least use an auto-hit taunt and a higher HP cap, I would think. Probably some slow resistance to give it a leg up on Human as well. All those would not overpower the form, but make it a more viable alternative to the other two forms, and more Tanky. I wouldn't mind Human doing so much more damage if Dwarf clearly was more of a viable tank.
Seriously, though. One of the reasons the Alpha Slot was such a phenomenal addition to the end game was its ability to fill in the holes in a build.
Let me add damage to my nova, hit points to my dwarf and resistance to my human, and give me the freedom to do so by buffing the forms with something they don't already provide in spades.
I'd much rather see the unique IO give human something it can use, like a recovery buff similar to what the forms give (letting human form benefit from stamina and an additional recovery buff the way the forms do)
For Dwarf Form I'd like to see either a recharge buff or a damage buff.
For Nova a defense buff would be awesome, but I'd take a healthy regeneration buff as well.
Just thoughts off the top of my head.
I've still got my fingers crossed.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies