What is the Kheldian surprise?

when did anyone say anything about /wp or mind link? maybe you should read the thread, understand what we're asking for and why then we'll talk

Light Form carrying over to Dwarf will increase its' survivability- Same can be said for Nova. Inner Light's longer duration will make it far more beneficial to forms than buildup was. No one is asking for PB's to be Warshade clones. They are meant to function differently, the reason that Warshades are brought up so often in discussions about PB improvement is because there is a huge performance gap. Many people have provided suggestions here to help bridge that gap, none of which (at least the good ones) involve making Peacebringers anything close to Warshade clones.

What's the point? With Light Form able to be made Perma, it will mean that human form - with one Dull Pain Clone, one Reconstruction Clone, accolades and moderate set investment will have roughly the same hit points, have mez protection, be more survivable, have access to pool toggles AND have far greater damage potential.

It isn't that Dwarf doesn't benefit - it's that it's just been made irrelevent.

Except that Nova gets its damage from an overcomplicated and obsolete formula designed to limit nova's damage potential with the damage cap. By using the 45% inherent boost to a nova's damage, nova form will cap out 45% quicker than human.

And when human form can outdamage nova anyway AND has a better attack chain AND is far, far more survivable, Nova is in the same position that Dwarf is in.

It benefits from the changes, but is made ALMOST irrelevant by them.

Except, you know, the whole "make build up last 30 seconds like mire" and "make Light Form not lock out the forms and be permable like eclipse" suggestions.

Which were, in case you hadn't noticed, just about the only ones that were listened to.

Any particular reason why you single out White Dwarf as opposed to both Dwarf forms? Granted, I assume it's because Peacebringers need more of a buff than Warshades but it could be argued that forms on both ATs could stand to benefit from form specific buffs. One suggestion I would make for White Dwarf specifically is a passive 20% recharge debuff resistance since White Dwarf has fewer damaging moves than Black Dwarf. I was originally going to suggest this for Incandescence and Absorption but it seems the forms could stand more than human form. Since neither passive seems to be active during the forms, it could potentially be perfectly fine to give the recharge debuff resistance to Incandescence, Absorption, and White Dwarf.

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Black Dwarf doesn't need it. Eclipse gives resistances to all, and these can be capped with minimal effort and risk (yes, I KNOW you have to be in a group of enemies to use Eclipse, but you've got powers in both your primary and secondary that let you stun them, group them, stealth them and take their wallets. It's more than safe.)

What keeps Black Dwarf relevant is that (a) Human Form by itself does miserable damage on a warshade, and (b) eclipse doesn't come with Mez protection.

Light Form does. Human form Peacebringers can outdamage White Dwarf. Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to take White Dwarf. Unless you like teleport.

Thus the suggestion to give White Dwarf resistance to ALL damage. If Black Dwarf can act as a heavy scrapper and be the damage dealer, then let White Dwarf be the true tank.


EDIT - and notice that I didn't single out Bright Nova....

Skimming and wondering why I'm bothering posting in here again, but -

It's perfectly fair to concentrate on White Dwarf here, and not just because it's about PB changes. There's more interplay or interaction between Dark dwarf and WS Humanform just on the basis of the mires. The mire (aside from being another viable attack in dwarf form) keeps Dwarf relevant to a Warshade.

For a current-live PB, Dwarf gives mez protection and exceptionally high resists. But you're limited to three attacks (if you want to count a procced Taunt as four, be my guest. I won't.) That's... it. MAYBE another (reliable) heal. But with the changes going through... that doesn't "sell" White Dwarf enough. (This vs WS, with three single target attacks and an AOE that's also a self buff. More offensive potential, plus resist, mez protection, etc.)

White Dwarf now goes from "Mez protection and toughness" to ... well, a negative, "Cost in slots." I can, if I want another heal (what's left to WD) snag Aid Self and - even slotting for interrupt reduction - still burn far fewer slots.

At this point, though... *shrug* Doesn't matter. I think we've hit critical mass of cooks vs stew, and the whole thing's starting to look like a mess.

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I was responding to a post that said the buffs made to Peacebringers were only buffs to human form. I never said that playing Human only wouldn't be more beneficial- Just that the buffs weren't exclusive to one form.

Essence Boost isn't always up. I still think Dwarf adds a good amount of versatility if you decide you want to use it.

I was under the impression that Human form had better single target damage and nova form had better aoe damage. You obviously know much more about this than I do, but the only point I was trying to make is that both Nova and Dwarf form will see the benefits of the Peacebringer buffs.

They're still functioning differently- These powers are not situational like Eclipse and Mire. They will be just as effective against one single hard target which can't be said for the Warshade powers.

Very...but then you ruined it. NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Maybe, but if we just shut up about it then we do ourselves a disservice in making sure they know how we feel. Squeaky wheel gets the grease after all...though I will admit at this point im just trying to keep it bumped on the off chance the devs decide to reply. Not much else that really needs saying on the players part.

I'm looking devside too for this, though. We don't *know* who's actually working on this - and who has worked on it (Castle was looking at one point, correct? Who else?) and we don't know how many *internal* design directions they're going with things, internal concerns and the like. Or how much actual experience the people there have with khelds and in what situation - are they looking at "We need to buff the solo/small team experience," "we need human changes regardless of form," etc.

I'd kind of like to hear just what they're looking at/thinking/rationales. (Because I don't, frankly, believe the AOE KB = "a needed power brake" nonsense.)

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Oh, but it is. If you've got enough recharge to get Light Form Perma, you also have perma Essence Boost.

And I will. Oh, I will.


Well, the point about AoE damage is a valid one. The question is: does that slight edge in AoE damage make Nova worth taking, or can Human Form kill single targets quicker with its fuller attack chain?

Add to that the fact that Novas' AoE attack chain is pretty much outclassed by virtually every other AoE archetype, and I'm definitely going to stay human.

Nova doesn't suffer as badly as Dwarf from being obviated, but its one advantage is still not enough to make it worth taking.

Fair enough, but when the rationale behind the changes to the powers was to normalize them with their Warshade counterparts (as the patch notes state) one expects at least normalized performance between Warshades and Peacebringers, which we haven't got.

And even though the functionality is different, the utility is the same. Peacebringer and Warshade builds just got a lot closer in terms of slotting, and the conditions for using them remain the only aesthetic difference.

And to those of us who don't care as much about performance as we do concept (and believe it or not I am one of those) their appearance is at least as important as their function. To all appearances we've taken a huge step toward looking like bright warshades.

And in return we're still only half as effective.

EDIT - and yes, I am aware of the duality of caring about the appearance of two powers for concept reasons while at the same time arguing that the forms should be more than just concept. I am who I am. I'm willing to live with the change to the concepts; I'm not willing to live with the forms being irrelevant.

DOUBLE EDIT - only I am apparently willing to live with the forms being irrelevant, since I'll most probably be going human form after Freedom launches. That's more me being resigned to it, though.

Perhaps PB and WS need to be brought back to the drawing board and rebuilt from the ground up? Keep the forms but make sure that all forms have their appropriate strengths and advantages to each other, and perhaps even let Khelds get a few more enhancement slots for the powers.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Heh. It should probably be stated ASAP that giving White Dwarf Flare a damage-buff effect is NOT the solution that would please us...

We discussed this much earlier in this thread. It's balanced in that both have significant pros and cons, with Eclipse being able to, well, eclipse the resists on Light Form with no crash. Also, Light Form only has Mag 3 mez protection, which is nice, but will be less useful if there is more than one mezzer in a crowd (and most Khelds aren't going to have significant defenses).

The two are balanced: both sides could easily wish for what the other gets on their "uber" defense power.

Ah, well that's good. Forgive me getting all "doomy" on you. Though I would say that tri-forming isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It'll be better when they shorten the shapeshifting animation and maybe give Dwarf some added help, but there are still advantages to both.

Arbiter Hawk tells me the IO set was designed before the current changes, so that's part of the problem. He did suggest that some changes to the set would be a good idea, so hopefully it will happen. I'd probably like to see all the resist bonuses taken out for something more helpful. Not sure if a chance at +recharge or defense would be more helpful.

The Dwarf and Nova ones could be okay if they reworked caps there, but I'm not sure if that is easier than adjusting the IO, or what. Caps would be helpful to all, probably. Dwarf could at least use an auto-hit taunt and a higher HP cap, I would think. Probably some slow resistance to give it a leg up on Human as well. All those would not overpower the form, but make it a more viable alternative to the other two forms, and more Tanky. I wouldn't mind Human doing so much more damage if Dwarf clearly was more of a viable tank.

I noted the problem of caps and our inherent to Arbiter Hawk in a PM. I did ask if it would help to get an official feedback thread, but he is reading this one, so I don't think it's all that needed.

So, as I have noted before, Arbiter Hawk is reading the thread and monitoring Kheldians. We're probably at the limit of what is going to happen now for I21, but we should all keep making a strong case for what more is needed. It sounds like animation changes should keep coming, as well as an adjustment to the Kheldian AT IO set (if I didn't misread Arbiter Hawk on that, but he did agree that none of the bonuses should go to waste). Development does not happen in two seconds, and we do have good indication that more is being done.

We're just (understandably) impatient and wanting it to happen now. The sooner they fix things, the better, but I guess we do need to be patient. And make good cases for what more is needed: how the AT is not working well currently, besides how it compares to other ATs. We're doing better there now, just reminding us all what works and what does not.

Um, no. All that isn't necessary. Giving nova attacks a direct damage increase in lieu of a buff and give dwarf form psionic and toxic resistance is all that's required to bring the forms in line with the human form at this point.

The LAST thing we need is to overcomplicate it.

Id love to hear it too...but until they talk to us, we aren't gonna know.

At the moment we know Arbiter Hawk is who was working on these particular changes via Grey Pilgrim. We know that he made a post to the closed beta forums stating he wasn't changing anything else until he saw how these changes played out. So I have no expectations on anything changing in the space of time between now and when I21 goes live...however, the changes that are coming in I21 are going to cause some problems of their own, and we've discussed that, as well as several problems still left on the table.

Id absolutely love to have a chat with Hawk, or Synapse, or Black Scorpion, or whoever on the devs side of things wants to have one on the state of the Kheldian AT's, their thoughts and ideas on them, and on our MANY discussions prior on what is/isnt a problem and how we'd fix them. If nothing else just knowing they're there and paying attention is an improvement over where we are right now. Unfortunately surprise changes, while nice, dont really tell us that they're paying attention. If anything its had the opposite effect here. After the surprise wore off, we started seeing some fairly large holes in the "fix", which we've already discussed extensively in this thread.

I really just think they need to talk to us. Im biased of course, but I think they need to tell us their intent, where they want to take things, what they see as problems, what they would like to do to fix them, etc, etc... So the balls in their court right now, all we can do is wait and hope they do something with it.

EDIT: And looking up, Grey Pilgrim, I appreciate you talking to him and passing things along; but I also think it'd be better if he wasn't trying to filter these things down through you. Just my opinion there, ill take it how I can get it, but it'd be alot easier if he was doing his own talking. We dont bite...much.

heh, hadn't thought of that- Good point. But does Essence Boost cap Human Form's HP on its' own?
My Peacebringer currently uses a Tri Form SO build. I tend to play him similar to my Warshade in a lot of ways- I advocate the "all forms, all times" philosophy on both of my Kheldians. I know a lot of people are screaming for Solar Flare's KB to be changed to KD and that would probably make the power more effective, but something to consider is that as you execute SF you *can* que up Nova and take out everything you knocked back in two shots. Sure beats Proton Scatter. If there's a boss that survived, that's when I run up and melee him.

The forms do have good synergy with each other if used appropriately- There's no reason you should have to choose between AOE and Single Target damage... Personally, I think Light Form carrying over to Nova will be a great help. I originally planned to respec into a Human Only build once I picked up Clarion, but with LF carrying over to forms and being perma-able (heh) I have decided I will stick with Tri Form. Something else to consider is that Exemping is a pretty big part of the game with the WST's and the Flashback system- I find my Kheldians are more effective than the majority of characters when exemped if they have forms.
I definitely agree with you that there is a problem overall with the amount of damage Peacebringers are dishing out, but is there any other AT typed as ranged damage (this according to the new character creation menu in Freedom) that can reach the levels of survivability Peacebringers can without needing to rely on special circumstances (apart from the proper IO build?)
I know it can be frustrating that the gap is so large in terms of what the two AT's are capable of, but it's like the disparity between powersets in other AT's in a way. /FA Scrappers will pump out more damage than most, but they won't be as safe as most. Peacebringers will have much more dependable survivability after these changes take effect.

Don't get the wrong idea here, I still think that Peacebringers need work... But at the same time I am glad that the Dev's have taken the time to give us what they have when there is obviously so much going on as of late. I see it as a welcome step in the right direction. We have every indication that they have been paying attention to the Kheldian community's concerns we have addressed in our forum and I think the fact that any buffs are happening at all in i21 was a big surprise to most of us. They never said ahead of time that these changes were coming, so we have no indication that more changes won't follow.

If I want to lay waste to a big group, I can hit Photon Seekers followed by Solar Flare, seasoned with Dawn Strike as necessary. Nova will still slightly edge out human form, but I'm arguing that the difference is so small that I'd be more than willing to trade it for the slots I'll gain by staying in human form.

There's more to aggro management than taunting; damage is every bit as much of a factor.

I've seen this time and again on my 50+++ White Dwarf, who can't get a ring to save his life on the BAF, regardless of how much I taunt. In the face of all those high-damage incarnates, my dwarf doesn't tank for squat.

And if I want to tank in human form, I'll take the presence pool taunts - it's not like dwarf taunt is auto-hit.

I'm not currently, but it looks like I will be soon.

leave my Warshade alone.

Yes, I was surprised we even got anything for I21. I wasn't sure we were ever going to get another look, so I was really happy when Second Measure told another player that Kheldians were being looked at for I22. I've gotten away from the excitement of that lately, because we really do need more adjustments, and we're supposed to be giving feedback on the changes. I think the assessment would be good, but not enough, at least from our end.

Yeah, I don't think the AT needs a complete rework. The overall design is okay, it's the particulars that are goofing it up, caps not working well enough with the purpose of each form, Cosmic Balance making AT balance more difficult, some powers needing further adjusting, etc. And Warshades certainly need less adjustment than Peacebringers still do.

I don't think a "Ground up" revamp is needed, or would be welcome anywhere (dev or player side.)

I do think there's going to need to be a fair bit of work regardless, and there'll be a lot of back and forth between PBs and WS - and I don't want to see either side *nerfed* as a result. Peacebringers should still have, for instance, the "reliable" buffs versus the Warshade "roller coaster."

I will, to be blunt, be wary of this version of the powers team. I find it amusing that since the AOE buffs, I've heard (fairly frequently) that buffing is at times even more frustrating than it was before, for instance. And just looking at the comments on humanform *now* making Dwarf fairly pointless - well, "Castle was right," it seems fair to say, when it comes to humanform mez protection (given perma-able lf.) He didn't want to give it to humanform in order to keep Dwarf from being obsoleted. *looks up a few posts.* Yeah...

I'm half wondering if they're having to re-learn lessons or something. There are things I appreciate - I'm not just here to tear them down or anything. But it just doesn't feel like solid footing with them yet.

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With accolades and set bonuses you can come very close, I believe.

This is actually a very good point, and - human form normally or not - my PB will also have that very same SO build I'm using in my comparisons for that exact reason.

But if I slot level 35 IO sets I"ll still be more effective in human form for everything level 30 and up, and I'll still be at the ed cap for enhancement.

I took a lot away from the tone of the post that Pilgrim quoted:

" we think they’re in pretty good shape after the changes that have already been made."

and

"we’ve made substantial and significant power increases available to PBs in the current build."

...in particular had a definite ring of finality about them that leads me to believe that any further changes to the archetype will come only after a significant amount of data mining. In other words, we're stuck with what we've been given for a while.

To be fair, Castle was talking about *just* giving mez protection to the shields, and the changes we have now given capped resistance along with mez protection.

And (just to keep myself somewhere in the realm of the realistic) even then you're going to have to wait until at least level 40 before Light Form can realistically be expected to perform as well as dwarf. (to say nothing of perma)

Before that the forms will still be quite valid, and I'll still recommend that people level up as triforms.

The end game shouldn't be the swan song for the forms, though.