What is the Kheldian surprise?
They're not going to make Peacebringers /WP no matter how much people want it or give PBs Mind Link because +def is what everyone does now with IOs. PBs are extremely survivable as it is and holes exist for a reason. They have great Res, ok damage that is getting better with these changes, a self heal, +max hp, mezz protection in the form of lightform (which no longer has a crash) is tough stuff. With a good +rech your heal is up all the time, so dying on a PB should be rare as is. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Yeah, I'm still amazed that the idea to fix Peacebringers involved mostly "improving" Human Form powers when Dwarf Form was already almost useless at higher levels with Nova only being slightly better, but this misconception of what's wrong with the PBs has been dominating the threads on the Kheldian sub forum too so it's not just the Devs who are so wrong-minded. It's like nobody actually plays the AT and everybody just wants them to be like Warshades.
Yeah, I'm still amazed that the idea to fix Peacebringers involved mostly "improving" Human Form powers when Dwarf Form was already almost useless at higher levels with Nova only being slightly better, but this misconception of what's wrong with the PBs has been dominating the threads on the Kheldian sub forum too so it's not just the Devs who are so wrong-minded. It's like nobody actually plays the AT and everybody just wants them to be like Warshades.
|
Light Form carrying over to Dwarf will increase its' survivability- Same can be said for Nova. Inner Light's longer duration will make it far more beneficial to forms than buildup was. No one is asking for PB's to be Warshade clones. They are meant to function differently, the reason that Warshades are brought up so often in discussions about PB improvement is because there is a huge performance gap. Many people have provided suggestions here to help bridge that gap, none of which (at least the good ones) involve making Peacebringers anything close to Warshade clones.
Light Form carrying over to Dwarf will increase its' survivability-
|
It isn't that Dwarf doesn't benefit - it's that it's just been made irrelevent.
Same can be said for Nova. Inner Light's longer duration will make it far more beneficial to forms than buildup was. |
And when human form can outdamage nova anyway AND has a better attack chain AND is far, far more survivable, Nova is in the same position that Dwarf is in.
It benefits from the changes, but is made ALMOST irrelevant by them.
No one is asking for PB's to be Warshade clones. They are meant to function differently, the reason that Warshades are brought up so often in discussions about PB improvement is because there is a huge performance gap. Many people have provided suggestions here to help bridge that gap, none of which (at least the good ones) involve making Peacebringers anything close to Warshade clones. |
Which were, in case you hadn't noticed, just about the only ones that were listened to.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I said it further up in the thread several times, but - given what appears to be a propensity on the part of the developers to ONLY address the most recent one or two pages of a thread or forum - I'll say it again:
My complaints with the human-bias in these changes would be largely mitigated by doing two things (one for each form):
IMHO That's ALL that's needed to make these changes balanced across the forms, it wouldn't directly affect the changes made one way or the other (ie- suddenly make Peacebringers overpowered) AND it's small enough that it can be done before it goes live. |
Any particular reason why you single out White Dwarf as opposed to both Dwarf forms?
|
What keeps Black Dwarf relevant is that (a) Human Form by itself does miserable damage on a warshade, and (b) eclipse doesn't come with Mez protection.
Light Form does. Human form Peacebringers can outdamage White Dwarf. Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to take White Dwarf. Unless you like teleport.
Thus the suggestion to give White Dwarf resistance to ALL damage. If Black Dwarf can act as a heavy scrapper and be the damage dealer, then let White Dwarf be the true tank.
EDIT - and notice that I didn't single out Bright Nova....
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Any particular reason why you single out White Dwarf as opposed to both Dwarf forms? Granted, I assume it's because Peacebringers need more of a buff than Warshades but it could be argued that forms on both ATs could stand to benefit from form specific buffs. One suggestion I would make for White Dwarf specifically is a passive 20% recharge debuff resistance since White Dwarf has fewer damaging moves than Black Dwarf. I was originally going to suggest this for Incandescence and Absorption but it seems the forms could stand more than human form. Since neither passive seems to be active during the forms, it could potentially be perfectly fine to give the recharge debuff resistance to Incandescence, Absorption, and White Dwarf.
|
It's perfectly fair to concentrate on White Dwarf here, and not just because it's about PB changes. There's more interplay or interaction between Dark dwarf and WS Humanform just on the basis of the mires. The mire (aside from being another viable attack in dwarf form) keeps Dwarf relevant to a Warshade.
For a current-live PB, Dwarf gives mez protection and exceptionally high resists. But you're limited to three attacks (if you want to count a procced Taunt as four, be my guest. I won't.) That's... it. MAYBE another (reliable) heal. But with the changes going through... that doesn't "sell" White Dwarf enough. (This vs WS, with three single target attacks and an AOE that's also a self buff. More offensive potential, plus resist, mez protection, etc.)
White Dwarf now goes from "Mez protection and toughness" to ... well, a negative, "Cost in slots." I can, if I want another heal (what's left to WD) snag Aid Self and - even slotting for interrupt reduction - still burn far fewer slots.
At this point, though... *shrug* Doesn't matter. I think we've hit critical mass of cooks vs stew, and the whole thing's starting to look like a mess.
What's the point? With Light Form able to be made Perma, it will mean that human form - with one Dull Pain Clone, one Reconstruction Clone, accolades and moderate set investment will have roughly the same hit points, have mez protection, be more survivable, have access to pool toggles AND have far greater damage potential.
|
It isn't that Dwarf doesn't benefit - it's that it's just been made irrelevent. |
Except that Nova gets its damage from an overcomplicated and obsolete formula designed to limit nova's damage potential with the damage cap. By using the 45% inherent boost to a nova's damage, nova form will cap out 45% quicker than human. And when human form can outdamage nova anyway AND has a better attack chain AND is far, far more survivable, Nova is in the same position that Dwarf is in. |
Except, you know, the whole "make build up last 30 seconds like mire" and "make Light Form not lock out the forms and be permable like eclipse" suggestions. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
EDIT (third time's the charm) - See, Zenyth? I didn't mention Photon Seekers EVEN ONCE in any of that! Aren'tcha proud of me?
....except I just did. Drat. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
At this point, though... *shrug* Doesn't matter. I think we've hit critical mass of cooks vs stew, and the whole thing's starting to look like a mess.
|
Maybe, but if we just shut up about it then we do ourselves a disservice in making sure they know how we feel. Squeaky wheel gets the grease after all...though I will admit at this point im just trying to keep it bumped on the off chance the devs decide to reply. Not much else that really needs saying on the players part.
|
I'd kind of like to hear just what they're looking at/thinking/rationales. (Because I don't, frankly, believe the AOE KB = "a needed power brake" nonsense.)
Essence Boost isn't always up. I still think Dwarf adds a good amount of versatility if you decide you want to use it.
|
And I will. Oh, I will.
I was under the impression that Human form had better single target damage and nova form had better aoe damage. You obviously know much more about this than I do, but the only point I was trying to make is that both Nova and Dwarf form will see the benefits of the Peacebringer buffs. |
Add to that the fact that Novas' AoE attack chain is pretty much outclassed by virtually every other AoE archetype, and I'm definitely going to stay human.
Nova doesn't suffer as badly as Dwarf from being obviated, but its one advantage is still not enough to make it worth taking.
They're still functioning differently- These powers are not situational like Eclipse and Mire. They will be just as effective against one single hard target which can't be said for the Warshade powers. |
And even though the functionality is different, the utility is the same. Peacebringer and Warshade builds just got a lot closer in terms of slotting, and the conditions for using them remain the only aesthetic difference.
And to those of us who don't care as much about performance as we do concept (and believe it or not I am one of those) their appearance is at least as important as their function. To all appearances we've taken a huge step toward looking like bright warshades.
And in return we're still only half as effective.
EDIT - and yes, I am aware of the duality of caring about the appearance of two powers for concept reasons while at the same time arguing that the forms should be more than just concept. I am who I am. I'm willing to live with the change to the concepts; I'm not willing to live with the forms being irrelevant.
DOUBLE EDIT - only I am apparently willing to live with the forms being irrelevant, since I'll most probably be going human form after Freedom launches. That's more me being resigned to it, though.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I dont really play in triform anymore much less pve besides trials.. but im sure if you want to lay waste to a big group a iod out pb with nova stacked up would do more dmg.. than the 3 aoe powers and inner light..
And dwarf is still going to tank better than human form.. and by tank meaning actually taunting and holding group..
nova = aoe killer dwarf= old time tank..
IF your into that get the forms..
If your into playing like a energy/regen/resistant blapper then go all human..
Eventually the devs will look at pbs again .. and we will get a better buff for forms.... but be happy.. its a buff.. its a bufff.. we kheldians getting buff.. lol
So yeah enjoy it..
In the meantime if ur a kheldian enthusiast then build a ws for pve.. and spec a pb for pvp.. and enjoy
Freedom:
Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
Skimming and wondering why I'm bothering posting in here again, but -
It's perfectly fair to concentrate on White Dwarf here, and not just because it's about PB changes. There's more interplay or interaction between Dark dwarf and WS Humanform just on the basis of the mires. The mire (aside from being another viable attack in dwarf form) keeps Dwarf relevant to a Warshade. For a current-live PB, Dwarf gives mez protection and exceptionally high resists. But you're limited to three attacks (if you want to count a procced Taunt as four, be my guest. I won't.) That's... it. MAYBE another (reliable) heal. But with the changes going through... that doesn't "sell" White Dwarf enough. (This vs WS, with three single target attacks and an AOE that's also a self buff. More offensive potential, plus resist, mez protection, etc.) White Dwarf now goes from "Mez protection and toughness" to ... well, a negative, "Cost in slots." I can, if I want another heal (what's left to WD) snag Aid Self and - even slotting for interrupt reduction - still burn far fewer slots. At this point, though... *shrug* Doesn't matter. I think we've hit critical mass of cooks vs stew, and the whole thing's starting to look like a mess. |
(This vs WS, with three single target attacks and an AOE that's also a self buff. More offensive potential, plus resist, mez protection, etc.)
|
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Lightform gets status protection now? Did it always have that? And does Eclipse? I'm sure I recall being held while Eclipsed on my WS..seems a bit..unfair?
|
The two are balanced: both sides could easily wish for what the other gets on their "uber" defense power.
Whoa, there, cowboy! I'm sick of spreadsheets, not Peacebringers! I'm not abandoning the archetype or anything so dramatic as all that. The most dramatic thing I intend to do when these changes go live - and I believe they will go live as is - will be respeccing out of my two non-human forms and rocking a human form build.
|
This. AT FIRST GLANCE, that IO is the most poorly designed piece of faldercarp I've seen come down the pike since I started playing this game six years ago. |
The Dwarf and Nova ones could be okay if they reworked caps there, but I'm not sure if that is easier than adjusting the IO, or what. Caps would be helpful to all, probably. Dwarf could at least use an auto-hit taunt and a higher HP cap, I would think. Probably some slow resistance to give it a leg up on Human as well. All those would not overpower the form, but make it a more viable alternative to the other two forms, and more Tanky. I wouldn't mind Human doing so much more damage if Dwarf clearly was more of a viable tank.
Well at first glance it all DOES look like good changes, and they aren't BAD changes; but then you start thinking about caps, and builds, and how you're already bumping against them...and all the other things that could use changing, and then you talk about it, and then you only get silence in return, and then you're getting grumpy, and here we are...grumpy squidlobsters...grumpy grumpy squidlobsters...
Then someone throws fuel on the fire, and the grump ratchets up a couple notches on the Grump-O-Meter. At this point, I just want some confirmation that Arbiter Hawk is listening to us, and that they aren't going to just shove this back on the backburner (again) because they've given their nod to fixing us for the next three to four years or so. |
So, as I have noted before, Arbiter Hawk is reading the thread and monitoring Kheldians. We're probably at the limit of what is going to happen now for I21, but we should all keep making a strong case for what more is needed. It sounds like animation changes should keep coming, as well as an adjustment to the Kheldian AT IO set (if I didn't misread Arbiter Hawk on that, but he did agree that none of the bonuses should go to waste). Development does not happen in two seconds, and we do have good indication that more is being done.
We're just (understandably) impatient and wanting it to happen now. The sooner they fix things, the better, but I guess we do need to be patient. And make good cases for what more is needed: how the AT is not working well currently, besides how it compares to other ATs. We're doing better there now, just reminding us all what works and what does not.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Perhaps PB and WS need to be brought back to the drawing board and rebuilt from the ground up? Keep the forms but make sure that all forms have their appropriate strengths and advantages to each other, and perhaps even let Khelds get a few more enhancement slots for the powers.
|
The LAST thing we need is to overcomplicate it.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I'm looking devside too for this, though. We don't *know* who's actually working on this - and who has worked on it (Castle was looking at one point, correct? Who else?) and we don't know how many *internal* design directions they're going with things, internal concerns and the like. Or how much actual experience the people there have with khelds and in what situation - are they looking at "We need to buff the solo/small team experience," "we need human changes regardless of form," etc.
I'd kind of like to hear just what they're looking at/thinking/rationales. (Because I don't, frankly, believe the AOE KB = "a needed power brake" nonsense.) |
At the moment we know Arbiter Hawk is who was working on these particular changes via Grey Pilgrim. We know that he made a post to the closed beta forums stating he wasn't changing anything else until he saw how these changes played out. So I have no expectations on anything changing in the space of time between now and when I21 goes live...however, the changes that are coming in I21 are going to cause some problems of their own, and we've discussed that, as well as several problems still left on the table.
Id absolutely love to have a chat with Hawk, or Synapse, or Black Scorpion, or whoever on the devs side of things wants to have one on the state of the Kheldian AT's, their thoughts and ideas on them, and on our MANY discussions prior on what is/isnt a problem and how we'd fix them. If nothing else just knowing they're there and paying attention is an improvement over where we are right now. Unfortunately surprise changes, while nice, dont really tell us that they're paying attention. If anything its had the opposite effect here. After the surprise wore off, we started seeing some fairly large holes in the "fix", which we've already discussed extensively in this thread.
I really just think they need to talk to us. Im biased of course, but I think they need to tell us their intent, where they want to take things, what they see as problems, what they would like to do to fix them, etc, etc... So the balls in their court right now, all we can do is wait and hope they do something with it.
EDIT: And looking up, Grey Pilgrim, I appreciate you talking to him and passing things along; but I also think it'd be better if he wasn't trying to filter these things down through you. Just my opinion there, ill take it how I can get it, but it'd be alot easier if he was doing his own talking. We dont bite...much.
Oh, but it is. If you've got enough recharge to get Light Form Perma, you also have perma Essence Boost.
And I will. Oh, I will. |
Well, the point about AoE damage is a valid one. The question is: does that slight edge in AoE damage make Nova worth taking, or can Human Form kill single targets quicker with its fuller attack chain? |
The forms do have good synergy with each other if used appropriately- There's no reason you should have to choose between AOE and Single Target damage... Personally, I think Light Form carrying over to Nova will be a great help. I originally planned to respec into a Human Only build once I picked up Clarion, but with LF carrying over to forms and being perma-able (heh) I have decided I will stick with Tri Form. Something else to consider is that Exemping is a pretty big part of the game with the WST's and the Flashback system- I find my Kheldians are more effective than the majority of characters when exemped if they have forms.
Add to that the fact that Novas' AoE attack chain is pretty much outclassed by virtually every other AoE archetype, and I'm definitely going to stay human. Nova doesn't suffer as badly as Dwarf from being obviated, but its one advantage is still not enough to make it worth taking. |
Fair enough, but when the rationale behind the changes to the powers was to normalize them with their Warshade counterparts (as the patch notes state) one expects at least normalized performance between Warshades and Peacebringers, which we haven't got. And even though the functionality is different, the utility is the same. Peacebringer and Warshade builds just got a lot closer in terms of slotting, and the conditions for using them remain the only aesthetic difference. |
Don't get the wrong idea here, I still think that Peacebringers need work... But at the same time I am glad that the Dev's have taken the time to give us what they have when there is obviously so much going on as of late. I see it as a welcome step in the right direction. We have every indication that they have been paying attention to the Kheldian community's concerns we have addressed in our forum and I think the fact that any buffs are happening at all in i21 was a big surprise to most of us. They never said ahead of time that these changes were coming, so we have no indication that more changes won't follow.
I dont really play in triform anymore much less pve besides trials.. but im sure if you want to lay waste to a big group a iod out pb with nova stacked up would do more dmg.. than the 3 aoe powers and inner light..
|
And dwarf is still going to tank better than human form.. and by tank meaning actually taunting and holding group.. |
I've seen this time and again on my 50+++ White Dwarf, who can't get a ring to save his life on the BAF, regardless of how much I taunt. In the face of all those high-damage incarnates, my dwarf doesn't tank for squat.
And if I want to tank in human form, I'll take the presence pool taunts - it's not like dwarf taunt is auto-hit.
If your into playing like a energy/regen/resistant blapper then go all human.. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Perhaps PB and WS need to be brought back to the drawing board and rebuilt from the ground up? Keep the forms but make sure that all forms have their appropriate strengths and advantages to each other, and perhaps even let Khelds get a few more enhancement slots for the powers.
|
leave my Warshade alone.
![Mad](images/smilies/mad.gif)
Don't get the wrong idea here, I still think that Peacebringers need work... But at the same time I am glad that the Dev's have taken the time to give us what they have when there is obviously so much going on as of late. I see it as a welcome step in the right direction. We have every indication that they have been paying attention to the Kheldian community's concerns we have addressed in our forum and I think the fact that any buffs are happening at all in i21 was a big surprise to most of us. They never said ahead of time that these changes were coming, so we have no indication that more changes won't follow.
|
Yeah, I don't think the AT needs a complete rework. The overall design is okay, it's the particulars that are goofing it up, caps not working well enough with the purpose of each form, Cosmic Balance making AT balance more difficult, some powers needing further adjusting, etc. And Warshades certainly need less adjustment than Peacebringers still do.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Perhaps PB and WS need to be brought back to the drawing board and rebuilt from the ground up? Keep the forms but make sure that all forms have their appropriate strengths and advantages to each other, and perhaps even let Khelds get a few more enhancement slots for the powers.
|
I do think there's going to need to be a fair bit of work regardless, and there'll be a lot of back and forth between PBs and WS - and I don't want to see either side *nerfed* as a result. Peacebringers should still have, for instance, the "reliable" buffs versus the Warshade "roller coaster."
I will, to be blunt, be wary of this version of the powers team. I find it amusing that since the AOE buffs, I've heard (fairly frequently) that buffing is at times even more frustrating than it was before, for instance. And just looking at the comments on humanform *now* making Dwarf fairly pointless - well, "Castle was right," it seems fair to say, when it comes to humanform mez protection (given perma-able lf.) He didn't want to give it to humanform in order to keep Dwarf from being obsoleted. *looks up a few posts.* Yeah...
I'm half wondering if they're having to re-learn lessons or something. There are things I appreciate - I'm not just here to tear them down or anything. But it just doesn't feel like solid footing with them yet.
heh, hadn't thought of that- Good point. But does Essence Boost cap Human Form's HP on its' own?
|
Something else to consider is that Exemping is a pretty big part of the game with the WST's and the Flashback system- I find my Kheldians are more effective than the majority of characters when exemped if they have forms. |
But if I slot level 35 IO sets I"ll still be more effective in human form for everything level 30 and up, and I'll still be at the ed cap for enhancement.
They never said ahead of time that these changes were coming, so we have no indication that more changes won't follow. |
" we think theyre in pretty good shape after the changes that have already been made."
and
"weve made substantial and significant power increases available to PBs in the current build."
...in particular had a definite ring of finality about them that leads me to believe that any further changes to the archetype will come only after a significant amount of data mining. In other words, we're stuck with what we've been given for a while.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I will, to be blunt, be wary of this version of the powers team. I find it amusing that since the AOE buffs, I've heard (fairly frequently) that buffing is at times even more frustrating than it was before, for instance. And just looking at the comments on humanform *now* making Dwarf fairly pointless - well, "Castle was right," it seems fair to say, when it comes to humanform mez protection (given perma-able lf.) He didn't want to give it to humanform in order to keep Dwarf from being obsoleted. *looks up a few posts.* Yeah...
|
And (just to keep myself somewhere in the realm of the realistic) even then you're going to have to wait until at least level 40 before Light Form can realistically be expected to perform as well as dwarf. (to say nothing of perma)
Before that the forms will still be quite valid, and I'll still recommend that people level up as triforms.
The end game shouldn't be the swan song for the forms, though.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I said it further up in the thread several times, but - given what appears to be a propensity on the part of the developers to ONLY address the most recent one or two pages of a thread or forum - I'll say it again:
My complaints with the human-bias in these changes would be largely mitigated by doing two things (one for each form):
IMHO That's ALL that's needed to make these changes balanced across the forms, it wouldn't directly affect the changes made one way or the other (ie- suddenly make Peacebringers overpowered) AND it's small enough that it can be done before it goes live.
EDIT - in case anyone is wondering what the change to Nova would accomplish - currently the 45% damage boost is added to the attack's base damage like the enhancement percentages and build up (inner light, whatever). If that were taken away and the powers' base damage were upped by 45%, all modifiers like enhancements and build up would affect the larger base numbers, bringing Nova's single target damage potential up from 101 dps in my comparison to 120 dps - which is a bit above human form. It would also effectively raise nova's damage cap.
EDIT (the sequel) - If anyone worries that 120 dps is overpowered for a Bright Nova, here's your baseline - to overcome your standard archvillain-class character's regeneration rate, you'd need to crank out somewhere around 121-125 dps after resistances are taken into account, am I right?
EDIT (third time's the charm) - See, Zenyth? I didn't mention Photon Seekers EVEN ONCE in any of that! Aren'tcha proud of me?
....except I just did. Drat.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies