The pragmatist in my head is advising me to give up trying to change anyone's mind. I'm convinced that it's too late for any further changes to be made before this goes live, and it's time to adjust my playstyle and build accordingly.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
honestly i'm just hoping i22 holds some bigger changes, since i21 is already pretty busy as is. but really it's best not to hope for much 'cause lol peacebringers
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I know not everyone will agree, but Light Form is far more useful with the change. You can make arguments for the old style Tier 9s and how much they could offer, but that huge crash just was too much of a tradeoff. Middle of the road is popular with a lot more people for things like this, and I can definitely see that appeal.|
Originally Posted by Fuzun
Finally for caught up on this thread and the changed. I see most of the changes as good. I bemoan the lost of Foot Stomp for Solar Flare. but I understand the visual need for the animation change. The big plus is that is allows a White Dwarf to teleport into a spawn and immediate do a Dwarf Flare w/o having to wait the Teleport Hover. It makes the White Dwarf a better tank.
The Light Form change worries me. The loss of 4/5ths of the Mezz Protection worries me the most. It loses it's OH SH** usability. And given I actually haven't tested the change out yet, I'm worried about my solo play ability specifically right Elite Bosses. Light Form w/ is a staple for fight Elite Bosses solo. It's a rare EB that my PB can take down in under 1:30. Now with 1:30 min up time and 1:00 min downtime. My PB defeating a EB now seems very doubtful. Surviving 60 secs vs an EB waiting for Light Form to be recharge. And on the touchy topic of the Kheldian Inherent. I'm on the side that says is close to perfect (IMHO) and don't want it changed much at all. The only weakness of the Khelds Inherent is in regards to the +1 Mag/control-type mezz protection. With only 1 control-type, Mag 1 status protection is worthless. It provides no benefit what so ever. The other buffs +10 RES or +20 DMG are obviously useful. My suggestion for making the Kheldian Inherent Power perfect would be to give it a base +1 Mag Status Protection. And reduced the status protection of Dwarf Form and Light Form by -1 Mag to offset the Inherent's +1 Mag. Solo or w/o a control-type AT on the team, it provides no appreciable protection. But with 1 control-type on the team, Mag Status Protection is some appreciable, yet modest, protection. |
The inherent, to me, has similar issues. Sure, it's nice that we can get such big numbers from teammates. But this is a detriment solo or on small teams, and is even weak on a big team if you aren't near your teammates. I'd rather see our performance made more reliable by distributing some of the inherent's benefit to the other forms, while still allowing some buffing from the inherent. As for mez protection, I still think we need more benefit from teammates. Once you have enough Controllers or Doms to make those numbers mean something, they're already mezzing most things that could mez you.
I guess I'd rather see the peaks and valleys of performance come more from powers (like for Warshades) than the inherent. The combination makes things harder to balance and more uneven than it should be.
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
I woulda been there with you except for prior engagements yesterday.
I really don't have my hopes up that they're going to do anything worthwhile with us. Everything I've seen so far screams "Do a couple things to shut em up, then forget about em". They've done nothing to show me that they're actually going to TRY and fix us...just another patch job, the last one we'll get for a couple years. The first strike against them is they wont talk to us... The second is they insist they're talking ABOUT us, but they've been doing that as long as I remember, which leads me to believe all the talk consists of "Kheld's are whining again" and that is it...not that they're talking to us to tell us what they're saying about us in the first place. The third is of course such WONDERFUL comments as "Changing knockback to knockdown would give PB's more AoE damage than Super Strength"... Three strikes, they're out...and so is my hope that anything serious is going to occur. |
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
The pragmatist in my head is advising me to give up trying to change anyone's mind. I'm convinced that it's too late for any further changes to be made before this goes live, and it's time to adjust my playstyle and build accordingly.
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I have to say yet again, though, that we just have to keep making a strong case for our ideas. We're probably at the limit for what is going to happen with I21, but that's not the end of the world. We know more is planned to fix animation issues in the future, and in his very first PM to me, Arbiter Hawk said he was open to ideas about how to improve the QoL or functionality of existing powers for Kheldians, and he wanted me to share them. He also said he read the Kheldian forums thoroughly and played Kheldians a lot in preparation for the changes. I haven't agreed with every statement he has made about Kheldians, but his being openness and work does say something.
There are a lot of balls being juggled with I21, so I'm not that surprised that we are sitting where we are for now. I'm pleasantly surprised that we got changes for I21 (since the best I had heard just before Closed Beta was I22 for changes), and as long as Arbiter Hawk stays open to ideas (and we make a good case for our ideas), we're in a good spot. I just hope action can be taken on things by I22.
So, in short, I will be down in the dumps with our status if nothing else happens by I22. But until then, keep in mind that the door is open for ideas, and don't expect them to happen overnight.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I too am more worried about what the average or casual player can do now than what these changes mean for somebody with a lot of expensive IO sets. I've been testing it with a Peacebringer that doesn't have any red or purple IO sets, but with nearly all of the accolade powers, and the basic alpha incarnate slot. So far I've beaten the Elite Bosses Arakhn, Requiem, and Hro'Dtohz while solo and with the difficulty setting set to +2 levels.|
Originally Posted by Fuzun
The Light Form change worries me. The loss of 4/5ths of the Mezz Protection worries me the most. It loses it's OH SH** usability. And given I actually haven't tested the change out yet, I'm worried about my solo play ability specifically right Elite Bosses. Light Form w/ is a staple for fight Elite Bosses solo. It's a rare EB that my PB can take down in under 1:30. Now with 1:30 min up time and 1:00 min downtime. My PB defeating a EB now seems very doubtful. Surviving 60 secs vs an EB waiting for Light Form to be recharge.
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Being mezzed while in LF hasn't been a problem for me even though they do have a lot of stuns and I don't think I've even needed to use any break frees, just lots of endurance and damage inspirations along with a few heals. That fact that it's 3.1 mezz protection of course means that most EBs will have to stack mezzing attacks on you to have any effect and the AI doesn't seem to be very good at that.
It is a trade-off because you used to be able to just hit LF once to beat nearly any EB but now you have to be prepared to switch to Dwarf form just before the crash and wait for LF to recharge (hopefully in about 26 seconds with Hasten) before finishing the fight.
arbiter hawk reading the kheldian forums on "how peacebringers should be changed" kind of scares me because while there's lots of reasonable folks like in this thread i got the feeling there's more than a fair share of folks who will defend peacebringers as they are to the death, or state that they don't need significant buffs. i think a consistent feedback thread would be nice, even just for the existence of a place to discuss the ideas going on. hell i think this thread is a pretty good one for that, and if it could be changed into the kheldian feedback thread and moved or something that'd be pretty baller since it's got a good collection of ideas, hard numbers an analysis and whatnot.
edit: really just more communication out of "hey pm me ya'll!" would be nice. simply having an intermediary seems kinda pointless, but then again the last time he posted was that golden gem so i guess i could see the reason for some hesitation with that even though the best way to dispel that is just talkin' more so we can get a discussion going on between players and devs.
i'm not actually sure of what function light form is supposed to have without high-end IOing/high recharge builds since it doesn't really act as a panic button or AV fighting button, and popping it every couple of groups seems.. inconsistent? someone in the thread earlier mentioned that it helps at lower levels of enhancement because it lets them use it more but thinking about it i guess i don't find the idea of having such an inconsistent semi-godmode (barrier?) appealing
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In my experience, before most Peacebringers were best against blue, white, and yellow mobs, but now we can shred through orange, red, and purple critters with relative ease thanks mostly to the changes in LF. In short, we are more consistently tough while not as good against a ton of mezz attacks at once, except for the fact that Dwarf shift now can't be interrupted. It also takes longer to fight EBs and I suspect some EBs/Avs with lots of Regen might be well nigh impossible now to solo for the average player, at least when at even + con.
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Originally Posted by Tabcef
i'm not actually sure of what function light form is supposed to have without high-end IOing/high recharge builds since it doesn't really act as a panic button or AV fighting button, and popping it every couple of groups seems.. inconsistent? someone in the thread earlier mentioned that it helps at lower levels of enhancement because it lets them use it more but thinking about it i guess i don't find the idea of having such an inconsistent semi-godmode (barrier?) appealing
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That's just it, I'm not expecting them to have all this done before I21 hits. I just want them to TALK TO US about our AT. This isn't something they can just read the forums and stay silent on, we are not in a position where one or two changes are going to fix everything. Its just not possible, no matter how much we might want it to be. They're going to have to put ALOT of work into this simply because its NOT that simple. I wish it was easy, but its not.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
To reply to these and the little bit of discussion about what Arbiter Hawk does, he said he has been getting more involved with powers as of late. I think Synapse and Black Scorpion are the main powers guys still, but he's helping out. Though it's hard to say now that they have the task forces or whatever they are calling their groupings working on development.
I have to say yet again, though, that we just have to keep making a strong case for our ideas. We're probably at the limit for what is going to happen with I21, but that's not the end of the world. We know more is planned to fix animation issues in the future, and in his very first PM to me, Arbiter Hawk said he was open to ideas about how to improve the QoL or functionality of existing powers for Kheldians, and he wanted me to share them. He also said he read the Kheldian forums thoroughly and played Kheldians a lot in preparation for the changes. I haven't agreed with every statement he has made about Kheldians, but his being openness and work does say something. There are a lot of balls being juggled with I21, so I'm not that surprised that we are sitting where we are for now. I'm pleasantly surprised that we got changes for I21 (since the best I had heard just before Closed Beta was I22 for changes), and as long as Arbiter Hawk stays open to ideas (and we make a good case for our ideas), we're in a good spot. I just hope action can be taken on things by I22. So, in short, I will be down in the dumps with our status if nothing else happens by I22. But until then, keep in mind that the door is open for ideas, and don't expect them to happen overnight. |
We absolutely REQUIRE a dialogue between the devs and the players on this. Its statements like the superstrength one that we need it, so we can AVOID them in the future. How can we make a strong argument when we have no clue WHAT they think of the arguments we've already been having? Filtering down the Word of Dev through the prophet Grey Pilgrim just ain't gonna cut it here. They HAVE to talk to us, or there's no point in us even bothering. They'll flop around hoping to hit what they think are the right changes, screw up for some of us, and since we had no idea what they were thinking we're gonna get even angrier than we are already.
I'm not asking for anything but for them to take some time to talk to us. I know they're busy, but I honestly think its necessary.
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We have plenty of revamp threads in the Kheldian forums, and this is our feedback thread for the beta, even if it would have been better for them to make an official one. Arbiter Hawk reads this, and he's not the only dev reading these boards.|
Originally Posted by Tabcef
arbiter hawk reading the kheldian forums on "how peacebringers should be changed" kind of scares me because while there's lots of reasonable folks like in this thread i got the feeling there's more than a fair share of folks who will defend peacebringers as they are to the death, or state that they don't need significant buffs. i think a consistent feedback thread would be nice, even just for the existence of a place to discuss the ideas going on. hell i think this thread is a pretty good one for that, and if it could be changed into the kheldian feedback thread and moved or something that'd be pretty baller since it's got a good collection of ideas, hard numbers an analysis and whatnot.
edit: really just more communication out of "hey pm me ya'll!" would be nice. simply having an intermediary seems kinda pointless, but then again the last time he posted was that golden gem so i guess i could see the reason for some hesitation with that even though the best way to dispel that is just talkin' more so we can get a discussion going on between players and devs. i'm not actually sure of what function light form is supposed to have without high-end IOing/high recharge builds since it doesn't really act as a panic button or AV fighting button, and popping it every couple of groups seems.. inconsistent? someone in the thread earlier mentioned that it helps at lower levels of enhancement because it lets them use it more but thinking about it i guess i don't find the idea of having such an inconsistent semi-godmode (barrier?) appealing |
When this goes live, and these boards are removed, we can certainly move things to the Kheldian forums. We can even start one in the general powers forum to make sure it doesn't get unnoticed or something. That said, Arbiter Hawk has been reading the Kheldian forums and has said he is keeping an eye on us. You don't have to worry about them reading, just making a strong case for your ideas.
I'm a little confused as to what the issue is for Light Form. It still IS a panic button. It's a huge boost of resistance and recovery, as well as mez protection. The only thing negatively different is that it's only up for 90 rather than 180 seconds. I can see how that can be slightly worrying, but that comes with the benefit of a greatly lessened crash. You were up a creek or out of a fight with the old one's crash, with this, you CAN keep going just fine. It's a boost overall, though it requires a tweaking of tactics.
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
That's just it, I'm not expecting them to have all this done before I21 hits. I just want them to TALK TO US about our AT. This isn't something they can just read the forums and stay silent on, we are not in a position where one or two changes are going to fix everything. Its just not possible, no matter how much we might want it to be. They're going to have to put ALOT of work into this simply because its NOT that simple. I wish it was easy, but its not.
We absolutely REQUIRE a dialogue between the devs and the players on this. Its statements like the superstrength one that we need it, so we can AVOID them in the future. How can we make a strong argument when we have no clue WHAT they think of the arguments we've already been having? Filtering down the Word of Dev through the prophet Grey Pilgrim just ain't gonna cut it here. They HAVE to talk to us, or there's no point in us even bothering. They'll flop around hoping to hit what they think are the right changes, screw up for some of us, and since we had no idea what they were thinking we're gonna get even angrier than we are already. I'm not asking for anything but for them to take some time to talk to us. I know they're busy, but I honestly think its necessary. |
And for good reason. They don't want to make promises that they can't keep, and they need to be able to toss around ideas and even see how things work in a closed beta. That's how it is.
We already have word from a powers developer that he is reading our suggestions and keeping an eye on Kheldians, and that he is going to wait and see how well the current changes do. We even have a promise that more will come when animation and FX time can be used (though I'm still worried about how soon that will be). That is more than a lot of people asking for changes to something in game are getting at this point (Stalkers, PvP, Bases, Gravity users, etc.).
I hear what you are saying and would love to hear more about what they are thinking, but I know it's not going to happen. We're just waiting to pounce on anything Arbiter Hawk would say as well, so that's going to be part of the problem as well. Being critical but fair, and making strong arguments via numbers, comparisons, and performance is the way to go.
Last but not least, I DO want more changes to Kheldians, and think we're doing mostly okay with arguments to that extent. We can keep it up and keep this being noticed, and hopefully more will come between I21 and I22, or in I22 (since their development setup is different than it has been before, I don't know what to expect).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Wizard, regardless of what happens, you at least deserve a thank you for all the work you've put in this. I'll do as you say, wait for issue 22 and hope good things come our way.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Last but not least, I DO want more changes to Kheldians, and think we're doing mostly okay with arguments to that extent. We can keep it up and keep this being noticed, and hopefully more will come between I21 and I22, or in I22 (since their development setup is different than it has been before, I don't know what to expect).
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I don't want promises.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
We're not going to get that much discussion with a developer about changes, before they are brought forward in a beta, though. As much as I would like to hear more, the devs just don't work like that. At best, I've heard a developer say "oh, we'll try to work on that." We never get an ETA, or even an exact description of what that is.
And for good reason. They don't want to make promises that they can't keep, and they need to be able to toss around ideas and even see how things work in a closed beta. That's how it is. We already have word from a powers developer that he is reading our suggestions and keeping an eye on Kheldians, and that he is going to wait and see how well the current changes do. We even have a promise that more will come when animation and FX time can be used (though I'm still worried about how soon that will be). That is more than a lot of people asking for changes to something in game are getting at this point (Stalkers, PvP, Bases, Gravity users, etc.). I hear what you are saying and would love to hear more about what they are thinking, but I know it's not going to happen. We're just waiting to pounce on anything Arbiter Hawk would say as well, so that's going to be part of the problem as well. Being critical but fair, and making strong arguments via numbers, comparisons, and performance is the way to go. Last but not least, I DO want more changes to Kheldians, and think we're doing mostly okay with arguments to that extent. We can keep it up and keep this being noticed, and hopefully more will come between I21 and I22, or in I22 (since their development setup is different than it has been before, I don't know what to expect). |
I don't want their word that they're REALLY paying attention to us this time...honest...
I want them to talk to us about our AT. They absolutely LOVE talking about their shiny new powersets and content, but they out and out REFUSE to talk about their past failures...and the Kheldians ARE a failure. No matter how much we like them, they are an early failure of design. A failure they learned from in designing new shinies, but a failure they've neglected to truly FIX for SEVEN YEARS all the same.
I can't argue for changes when I don't know what can and cannot work. It's why I'm arguing for this dialogue so much. I want to HELP THEM, but I cant HELP THEM, if they just sit around in stony silence while I flounder around with all my random ideas that they may or may not be able to use. Silence isn't helping us or them at all. We flounder for ideas we think they'll like and then they flounder for ideas they think will make us happy...It's like all those games where someones blindfolded and the other guy has to tell them how to navigate an obstacle course...only in this case BOTH parties are blindfolded, and neither knows which one is supposed to be doing the running.
Its a gigantic cluster**** is what it is...
You said yourself we need to keep making our arguments for change...well, this is my argument. We need a change in relations with the devs before we even worry about where to start with fixing Khelds. Our problems are large enough that we need to know what they want out of us before we even bother trying to think up what we want to change and how.
We need to talk about WHO all is doing these changes so we know who we're talking to. Is it Hawk alone? Are Synapse and Black Scorpion involved? Like you said their new strike team format is different than it used to be, who is on the Kheld strike team?
We need to discuss WHERE we think Kheld's should be in the grand scheme of things, are they happy with us at the bottom of the heap? I know im not.
We need to talk about WHAT they want to see done, and what we want done so we can meet in the middle.
We need to figure out HOW this is going to effect the rest of the game. I don't want to be brokenly overpowered, but I definitely want to be valuable and useful to my team.
We need to settle on WHEN we will get the majority of these changes, spread out over several issues, all at once. We need a general timeline. If they cant keep it, apologize, we'll understand as long as we know we haven't just been backburnered again.
And we need to make sure we all know WHY the devs wont let this happen again, because I absolutely WILL NOT settle for another patch job like our last "fix" three years ago.
I want them to talk to us so that we aren't just wasting time, ours and theirs floundering around blindly. It's not how they normally work, but this isn't a normal situation in the slightest. It shouldn't be treated as one either. No other AT has been in a pickle as long as ours has. No other AT has mechanics that work even remotely like ours, and no other AT has been neglected as long as ours has.
I don't want promises, or their word, I just want to talk to them so that we're all on the same page so we can do this RIGHT the first time.
If people felt this strongly about world hunger, noone would go starving.
The devs will eventually fix Khelds or they won't. I love mine but y'know...meh.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Fix khelds... like they fixed PvP?
I don't mean that as saying that the devs did wrong there, but it was a fix that made a lot of people unhappy.
There are some people who like them as they are. They can't make major changes without making them unhappy.
I suppose what it comes down to is this 'Can they be fixed without drastic changes'?
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Strawman.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
If people felt this strongly about world hunger, noone would go starving.
The devs will eventually fix Khelds or they won't. I love mine but y'know...meh. |
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Originally Posted by Technoraid
Fix khelds... like they fixed PvP?
I don't mean that as saying that the devs did wrong there, but it was a fix that made a lot of people unhappy. There are some people who like them as they are. They can't make major changes without making them unhappy. I suppose what it comes down to is this 'Can they be fixed without drastic changes'? |
But im not asking for any of that...Im not asking for anything but the devs to TALK TO US, so we can figure out the best way to change things with the LEAST amount of making people unhappy. Someones gonna be unhappy regardless, but id rather we figure it out between the players and the devs rather than the devs just make changes and hope they dont make everyone grumpy.
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Just like with PvP, the devs know what changes players want for Khelds. Like...I don't have to discuss it with my folks that I'd rather eat chocolate cake for dinner most nights, they're already privy to the concept since I'm so vocal about it. They just chose to give me spinach and liver instead for whatever crazy reasons.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Strawman.
Can they be fixed without drastic changes? No, I dont think they can. I dont think the AT's need a complete overhaul, but I do believe its going to take more than making this power cool down a little faster, or that power have a longer duration. But im not asking for any of that...Im not asking for anything but the devs to TALK TO US, so we can figure out the best way to change things with the LEAST amount of making people unhappy. Someones gonna be unhappy regardless, but id rather we figure it out between the players and the devs rather than the devs just make changes and hope they dont make everyone grumpy. |
It's healthy/productive to talk about Kheld or PvP changes on the forums, but there has to come a point after years of the same ideas being presented when you realize there's no point in getting worked up or expecting a lot.
As some say, "hope for the best, but expect the worst".
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Again, strawman.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Just like with PvP, the devs know what changes players want for Khelds. Like...I don't have to discuss it with my folks that I'd rather eat chocolate cake for dinner most nights, they're already privy to the concept since I'm so vocal about it. They just chose to give me spinach and liver instead for whatever crazy reasons.
It's healthy/productive to talk about Kheld or PvP changes on the forums, but there has to come a point after years of the same ideas being presented when you realize there's no point in getting worked up or expecting a lot. As some say, "hope for the best, but expect the worst". |
Your dinner, and world hunger have about as much in common with the devs talking to us as ponies have with nuclear physics.
Im not asking for anything but the devs to talk to us. Im not asking for my changes, im not asking for your changes, im not asking for anything but the devs to TALK TO US so that between us we can figure out the best way to go about changes in a way thats good for them AND for us.
Is that really asking too much that the people making the changes talk to us?
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The world hunger concept was more about me wishing people felt as strongly about that problem as you do about Kheld changes, but strawman is as strawman does. All I'm saying is that you can ask the devs to talk to you about something that people have been asking the devs to talk about for years. Honestly (no snarky), I hope it works out better for you than it has for everyone before you that have felt so passionately about the same topic.
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
Again, strawman.
Your dinner, and world hunger have about as much in common with the devs talking to us as ponies have with nuclear physics. Im not asking for anything but the devs to talk to us. Im not asking for my changes, im not asking for your changes, im not asking for anything but the devs to TALK TO US so that between us we can figure out the best way to go about changes in a way thats good for them AND for us. Is that really asking too much that the people making the changes talk to us? |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
Well, im kinda hoping if they're as serious about this as they keep telling us they are that you know...maybe they'll take the request seriously...|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
The world hunger concept was more about me wishing people felt as strongly about that problem as you do about Kheld changes, but strawman is as strawman does. All I'm saying is that you can ask the devs to talk to you about something that people have been asking the devs to talk about for years. Honestly (no snarky), I hope it works out better for you than it has for everyone before you that have felt so passionately about the same topic.
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My inner pessimist thinks this is just another "Shut the khelds up, give em some changes, then ignore them for another 3 to 4 years". Everything they've done so far points me towards that. It makes me angry, so thats why Im so serious about this. Ive about reached my limit, if you look at my "joined" date, ive been here since the beginning almost. I made my Kheld pretty much the week they became available, and I've been riding the Kheld train almost exclusively ever since. I cant take another "just to shut them up" effort. Fixing Kheld's has been LONG overdue, and while my inner pessimist says they're not gonna do anything, my inner optimist hopes they're taking fixes seriously this time.
I want them to talk to us because they need to. We've lived with silence out of them for way too long. Even if its just to reassure us that they really meant what they said, that they really are working on Khelds...I just want to hear it in some fashion thats not second hand being passed down from another player. Its a whole lot more than they've said to us in the past. There are other reasons, which ive stated up above, but ive got my own reasons for it too. Call me "Needy", I am, but ive got my reasons for it. I really do like the game, and I really do like my Peacebringer...but theres just so much wrong with him that has been wrong with him for years now. I just want to see fixes done right, and that really will be easier if they talk to us. It'll be easier on us because we'll be getting feedback on all those random ideas we've thrown out over the years, and it'll be easier on them because if we know what they think, we can focus our feedback. Silence doesn't help anyone.
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They're busy.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Is that really asking too much that the people making the changes talk to us?
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And unlike a not-so-distant past where the devs claimed the same without showing anything for it, this time they do have something big to show for. Freedom.
Nevertheless, they already allowed Arbiter Hawk to take a look at Kheldians, including a minor emergency patch in i21, as well as an unspoken wink that they're on top of things. The best we can do now is make them aware of our experiences, issues, playstyles and what exactly we'd like to see improved.
I hate it when "players" (meaning, usually, methuselah posters "speaking for the whole forum community" while blatantly ignoring the unspoken majority that doesn't even visit the forums) come up with the changes themselves and treat the devs as mere spectators. It usually involves unfair quid pro quo negotiations and false assumptions based on hunches and shoddy math, taking 10% from this power and giving 5% to that power, leaving the situation relatively unchanged while boosting specific playstyles and strategies. Things like "there's no need to worry about kb in Energy Blast because you can hover-blast" or "you can't change the FF/Thermal/Cold shields into AoEs because it would involve a significant increase in end/rech".
What I do like is when a competent, creative dev with access to a significant amount of datamining reports reads up on a large sample of feedback and suggestions, promotes a healthy discussion that includes a group of level-minded 7 year veteran players (like Grey Pilgrim or Arcanaville) and takes all that into account when implementing the changes said dev believes necessary.
And please, don't force us casual players to have to lobby and haggle for every little change. Giving suggestions is one thing, but demanding specific changes, or worse, putting an embargo on every idea because you don't like it... that's taking it too far.
Zenyth, I'm with you on Peacebringers (they need a full revamp, badly), but recent history has raised my confidence in this dev team to unprecedent levels. Freedom is very well done, as is First Ward, as was GR, and if they're investing in that type of thing, more power to them - even if it means rolling VEATs and brutes until they have a chance to look at Kheldians, poison, gravity, electric blast, weapon redraw, leading hostages to the exit, and all the other things that are long overdue for a revision...
Quote:
Unfortunately, my confidence isn't all that high.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
They're busy.
And unlike a not-so-distant past where the devs claimed the same without showing anything for it, this time they do have something big to show for. Freedom. Nevertheless, they already allowed Arbiter Hawk to take a look at Kheldians, including a minor emergency patch in i21, as well as an unspoken wink that they're on top of things. The best we can do now is make them aware of our experiences, issues, playstyles and what exactly we'd like to see improved. I hate it when "players" (meaning, usually, methuselah posters "speaking for the whole forum community" while blatantly ignoring the unspoken majority that doesn't even visit the forums) come up with the changes themselves and treat the devs as mere spectators. It usually involves unfair quid pro quo negotiations and false assumptions based on hunches and shoddy math, taking 10% from this power and giving 5% to that power, leaving the situation relatively unchanged while boosting specific playstyles and strategies. Things like "there's no need to worry about kb in Energy Blast because you can hover-blast" or "you can't change the FF/Thermal/Cold shields into AoEs because it would involve a significant increase in end/rech". What I do like is when a competent, creative dev with access to a significant amount of datamining reports reads up on a large sample of feedback and suggestions, promotes a healthy discussion that includes a group of level-minded 7 year veteran players (like Grey Pilgrim or Arcanaville) and takes all that into account when implementing the changes said dev believes necessary. And please, don't force us casual players to have to lobby and haggle for every little change. Giving suggestions is one thing, but demanding specific changes, or worse, putting an embargo on every idea because you don't like it... that's taking it too far. Zenyth, I'm with you on Peacebringers (they need a full revamp, badly), but recent history has raised my confidence in this dev team to unprecedent levels. Freedom is very well done, as is First Ward, as was GR, and if they're investing in that type of thing, more power to them - even if it means rolling VEATs and brutes until they have a chance to look at Kheldians, poison, gravity, electric blast, weapon redraw, leading hostages to the exit, and all the other things that are long overdue for a revision... |
And they're busy? Really? They seem to have enough time to talk about all their new shinies, and how they're gonna keep making new shinies...while their rusty old crap continues to rust...
They've said they want to work on Khelds, all I want is a show of just how serious they are. Not random changes that cause more problems (Im looking at you lightform and kheld resistance cap). I love a good discussion, but if they're gonna be working on kheldians I think they need to keep us in the loop. They seem real talkative in the closed beta when there was only, as far as I know Grey Pilgrim to talk to...and then they go stone cold silent the minute we hit open. Id love to discuss the changes they've already made with them, but they wont even talk to us about THAT!
Im not asking too much here, I just want some sign that we're not just talking to ourselves in here.
Quote:
Another strawman deal here lol - |
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Unfortunately, my confidence isn't all that high.
And they're busy? Really? They seem to have enough time to talk about all their new shinies, and how they're gonna keep making new shinies...while their rusty old crap continues to rust... They've said they want to work on Khelds, all I want is a show of just how serious they are. Not random changes that cause more problems (Im looking at you lightform and kheld resistance cap). I love a good discussion, but if they're gonna be working on kheldians I think they need to keep us in the loop. They seem real talkative in the closed beta when there was only, as far as I know Grey Pilgrim to talk to...and then they go stone cold silent the minute we hit open. Id love to discuss the changes they've already made with them, but they wont even talk to us about THAT! Im not asking too much here, I just want some sign that we're not just talking to ourselves in here. |
If you tell your wife that you really want to spice up the bedroom and she says shes gonna work on it, but never does and years pass by...whats that tell you?
You are not talking to yourself hence the great discussions found just in this one thread. The hundreds of pages of people talking about changes, improvements and ideas on the Kheld forums seems to indicate thought that the devs have other priorities. Should i go back to my chocolate cake for dinner reference?
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
No you should stop making pointless comments that all boil down to "Just give up".
|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Another strawman deal here lol -
If you tell your wife that you really want to spice up the bedroom and she says shes gonna work on it, but never does and years pass by...whats that tell you? You are not talking to yourself hence the great discussions found just in this one thread. The hundreds of pages of people talking about changes, improvements and ideas on the Kheld forums seems to indicate thought that the devs have other priorities. Should i go back to my chocolate cake for dinner reference? |
Quote:
LOL, I never said give up. My PB is in the top three toons I regularly play. My comments towards you are more along the lines of...you type up walls of text, the same walls of text that people have been sharing for years about dissatisfaction with PBs.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
No you should stop making pointless comments that all boil down to "Just give up".
|
Its your internet and your time, please carry on and I hope you get some satisfaction at least in venting. It just so reminds me of people on the PvP forums still VEHEMENTLY compaining about i13 changes. It is what it is, you can rant/rave constantly about what you dont like and appear to be pissed off to no end or you can make the most of what is currently offered and enjoy the game.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Zenyth, it'll be helpful to discuss how the devs communicate, or else you are just going to be doomed to disappointment with this. We are lucky that our developers talk to us as much as they do, actually. Not every game is like this.
That said, the developers are less talkative than they used to be, and extremely loath to make promises before something is already developed or in development. They've been burnt by development needs changing, meaning they had to adjust what they promised before. They have also had things end up not working that they thought could (like City Vault), so they're not going to jump in and say something is coming until it is about to hit and they are ready with it.
On top of that is the issue of how people, gamers, and the internet work. Little hints of what is coming causes rampant speculation and paranoia among players, so every dev statement has to be pretty darn careful. I've seen players look at humor from devs badly as well, so now we see less of that from them, alas. As for more discussion in closed beta, that's how it has always worked. There are fewer players to interact with, and more time to actually get fixes in place. It allows things to be more focused and for the devs to chat more freely.
So, you should not give up on wanting improvements to Kheldians, or discussing said improvements. I will also hope for a little word once in awhile from Arbiter Hawk if something is being thought about or worked on, but I doubt it will happen until it's about to be put in game (or a beta version). That's because of all of the above.
And another bit of reality to add to this: the devs really ARE busy with a lot of things for I21, and future issues. Kheldians are not the only iron Arbiter Hawk has in the fire for I21, and he's working on other things. The adjustments to Kheldians are just one small part of a huge package coming with Freedom, a change that is going to fundamentally shift how this game works, and hopefully keep it economically viable for the future. Comparing that to Kheldians, we are a smaller thing to worry about.
Given all that, I am once again grateful that anything even happened in I21, and that Arbiter Hawk is keeping an eye on things. That's more assurance and work (that we know of) than we have had in the last couple years. So I understand the frustration, but be patient as best you can. Everyone responds better to positive thoughts and criticism than negativity.
Have a good weekend, while we're at it. Woohoo, three days off before the start of school!
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I'm new to the game and was excited when I first unlocked PB. But after playing it the experience has been rather underwhelming compared to other ATs, especially to VEATs. From a perspective of a new player, this AT seem to lack the "ommph" to it and I wouldn't be surprise to see other new players moving on to play other ATs. Leaving this AT in the dust while only the diehards cling to it.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
I don't want promises.
I don't want their word that they're REALLY paying attention to us this time...honest... I want them to talk to us about our AT. They absolutely LOVE talking about their shiny new powersets and content, but they out and out REFUSE to talk about their past failures...and the Kheldians ARE a failure. No matter how much we like them, they are an early failure of design. A failure they learned from in designing new shinies, but a failure they've neglected to truly FIX for SEVEN YEARS all the same. |
Considering the hype the devs give to the new power sets... I feel PB is going to sit on the backburner for quite some time. If like you mentioned, nothing much was done for the past 7 years, I don't think going forward would be any different.
Especially now under the FREEDOM system, we HAVE to buy powersets. Which gives the devs even more incentive to talk about their latest shinies. And in general most people are drawn to newer & shinier things.
It would appear that devs KPI are measured in how much profit they can generate for the company. It would make sense for them to prioritize on developing content that will generate profit. That would naturally mean, new costumes, story arcs and powersets. Working on a 7 year old AT that comes with the game itself and not everyone plays can be deemed as a less productive use of their development time...
My only hope is that in the new system they churn out. They make enough money to justify the reason to divert more resources into fine tuning the Kheldian ATs to the level it should be.
I will miss you City of Heroes..
And the changers aren't live yet. They are wanting feedback, and I'm giving my feedback on the changes. The bottomline to my feeling on the changes are that Light Form was the yet different as Eclipsed for the Warshade. It's a radical change to a power that's been in the game since Issue 3. And such changes should not be made lightly.
IF they really want to make balance power changes Pulsar vs Gravitic Emanation. Pulsar was balanced with Graitic Emanation before the AoE Max Target reduction. Pulsar could affect 16 targets which would be balanced with the 0.8 Accuracy. But when they reduced the Max Targets for the various AoEs they never changed the 0.8 Accuracy for Pulsar. And even since then it's been a hugely subpar power in a lot of respects. It means that Arbiter Warrants and the rest of the Powers team assumptions about Peacebringers are wrong (IMHO of course)
For Pulsar to be bring up to to where it should have been, Increase Max Targets back to 16. Or change the Pulsar's Accuracy to 1.0.