it cant be said too many times: Keyes Island feedback
By
Abraxxus,
Posted on: 2011-08-07 14:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This, basically. Personally, I'm up for Keyes if one happens to be forming when I'm not otherwise engaged, but I rarely ever see that happening and I'm not sufficiently motivated to actively seek one out (or form one myself) since compared with the other trials it's generally more effort ("hassle" may be more accurate) and time expended (partly due to people not knowing what to do and slowing it down, I guess) for the same reward.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
It has been talked about on a private channel which gets a lot of action that people don't run it because it's far easier to do speed versions of BAF and Lambda. Since people are less willing to do Keys, less people know how to deal with it. I have yet to do it and I haven't gotten much urge to do it. I do maybe one BAF/Lam combo a week, or two. So far it looks like Keys is the odd person out in terms of trials among the player base.
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I don't think it's especially tough to figure out what you're meant to do at each stage though, especially if you read the trial overview on the CoH homepage before you run it. That said, it *is* very chaotic and can be tough to keep track of where the rest of the league is and what they're currently doing. And that final battle is a mess of effects and mechanics of varying importance, so again easy to lose track of things there.
Keyes > Lam > BAF For when I'm running them for fun.
BAF > Lam > Keyes For when I want to be lazy, or just want a quick component.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
I would give Keyes a grade of B-. The mission itself is fine enough but not so much that I think it should be one of the Three Approved Ways to Continue Advancing Your Character. (The incarnate system as a whole as left me extremely underwhelmed though; I'd give all of it together a D-, for reasons I've explained elsewhere.)
In the case of Keyes specifically, there are two things that I don't like:
- Because much of the movement is vertical, once you get separated it is hard to figure out where the team actually is.
- Trying to quickly click on the person being Disintegrated isn't fun or challenging. It's just something any other number of games do, except with better interfaces. IMO the central challenge of an encounter should not be overcoming a nearly 8 year old UI.
I could overlook it if the iTrials weren't farms. As it stands I have split my money between this game and a few others mainly because the incarnate content is not what I expected or want to participate in.
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I lead successful Keyes trials on my server on a fairly regular basis. To get to this point, all I did was read over the information posted here, read over VoodooGirl's guide, and do the trial maybe twice. After that, I started forming them up. At the start of each trial, I went over the important points from what I understood, then I reiterated certain concepts as they became relevant during the trial. A couple failed in the beginning, but over time they became smoother and a lot more enjoyable. A few others on my server have also stepped up to lead them while placing an emphasis on educating players about the trial (describing what to expect and giving them helpful tips/macros). This has made a noticeable difference. More players are willing to do the trial, actually enjoying it, and completing it in less time. Recently, we completed one in about 17 minutes.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
In order to use strategy, i.e. "think," its necessary to know what is going on. On the three KI trials I have run, few people if any seem to know what's going on, or which reactor we should be at, or what level of the reactor is everyone ON, etc. One just tries to stay with everyone else and do what they're doing. This is neither enjoyable or strategically a good thing. It fosters neither cooperation or strategic thought.
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Being on a trial with poor leadership combined with many inexperienced players can make any trial seem horrible. You mentioned that you have only been on three total and all three have lacked direction and organization. In that case, I can see why you have a sour opinion of Keyes. Since lack of leadership seems to be the biggest factor, I'd suggest trying to form up your own trials. It is not as difficult as it might seem. Just read up on the trial and communicate what you know to others. Once you've been on a few smooth runs you may wish to reconsider your opinion of Keyes.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
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Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
After i21, there will be more Keyes runs. They're changing it so that you can't get a Very Rare drop from BAF or Lambda and the chance of a Rare from them will be reduced too, so you'll have to run Keyes and Underground to get any Very Rares and Rares at a fair rate. The idea is that since they all give the same salvage, players will run BAF and Lambda to get their commons and uncommons, then upgrade to the tougher Keyes and Underground to get their rares. From an interview in GamePro.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
After i21, there will be more Keyes runs. They're changing it so that you can't get a Very Rare drop from BAF or Lambda and the chance of a Rare from them will be reduced too, so you'll have to run Keyes and Underground to get any Very Rares and Rares at a fair rate. The idea is that since they all give the same salvage, players will run BAF and Lambda to get their commons and uncommons, then upgrade to the tougher Keyes and Underground to get their rares. From an interview in GamePro.
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Please please please tell me this isn't true. At least with the current system I can moonlight my way through a BAF half paying attention in the hopes of rolling a Very Rare while watching something on Netflix. If I have to start farming Keyes for the chance of getting a drop, my grade for this system would drop from D- to a solid F.
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Well, hope that is not correct.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
After i21, there will be more Keyes runs. They're changing it so that you can't get a Very Rare drop from BAF or Lambda and the chance of a Rare from them will be reduced too, so you'll have to run Keyes and Underground to get any Very Rares and Rares at a fair rate. The idea is that since they all give the same salvage, players will run BAF and Lambda to get their commons and uncommons, then upgrade to the tougher Keyes and Underground to get their rares. From an interview in GamePro.
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Edit - ah, now I get it. Took a while with my bad eyesight.
Tsk, tsk.
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YES. While I HIGHLY welcome this change, it's gonna destroy the system just from general consensus. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
After i21, there will be more Keyes runs. They're changing it so that you can't get a Very Rare drop from BAF or Lambda and the chance of a Rare from them will be reduced too, so you'll have to run Keyes and Underground to get any Very Rares and Rares at a fair rate. The idea is that since they all give the same salvage, players will run BAF and Lambda to get their commons and uncommons, then upgrade to the tougher Keyes and Underground to get their rares. From an interview in GamePro.
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@Leetdeth - Virtue | MA Arcs(all challenge arcs): Big Magic Blowout! #369774 | Who Really Cares About This? Z! #509577 | That Meddling King! (teams recommended) #21450
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I see what you did there.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
After i21, there will be more Keyes runs. They're changing it so that you can't get a Very Rare drop from BAF or Lambda and the chance of a Rare from them will be reduced too, so you'll have to run Keyes and Underground to get any Very Rares and Rares at a fair rate. The idea is that since they all give the same salvage, players will run BAF and Lambda to get their commons and uncommons, then upgrade to the tougher Keyes and Underground to get their rares. From an interview in GamePro.
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I dislike Keyes because it represents far too many objectives performed under constant, extreme, hostile environmental conditions.
Well, that and it takes ten full minutes to explain what to do, to those who are unfamiliar. With BAF and Lambda, a person can pretty much follow along. Not so much Keyes.
Anyway, if the death pulse hit for around 25% damage instead of about 50%, and it weren't necessary to collect THIRTY freaking temps, three per console, for numerous consoles, all the way up the three towers, while people are being scattered by the death pulse, where maybe half of them even understand the temp powers usage constraints, I'd be fine with the rest. That combination of vast number of objectives and constant wide-area mega-damage kills my interest.
BAF is very straightforward. Lambda mostly so. Keyes simply tried to combine TOO MANY different elements and hazard conditions in a single trial. While I appreciate a challenge for incarnated characters, Keyes is simply tedious.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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This too. Plus, I've been on 5 KIR. 3 win, 2 fail, 1 or which an absolute farce due to no-one knowing what's going on (but still fun). I wish I had been on more, but people are shying away from this one and not including it as part of the standard 3 per day.
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
This. Yes the damage pulse can be difficult to deal with at times that's why I fill my entire tray with nothing but greens and have rebirth as my destiny on that trial.
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Sneaky, sneaky. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
After i21, there will be more Keyes runs. They're changing it so that you can't get a Very Rare drop from BAF or Lambda and the chance of a Rare from them will be reduced too, so you'll have to run Keyes and Underground to get any Very Rares and Rares at a fair rate. The idea is that since they all give the same salvage, players will run BAF and Lambda to get their commons and uncommons, then upgrade to the tougher Keyes and Underground to get their rares. From an interview in GamePro.
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... have you ever read a superhero comic book?
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Antimatter delivers an insane rant from atop a reactor - and amazing how we can hear what he's saying from 100 ft away, down on the ground
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Personally, I find you can't rely on anyone else for your own survival. Even sticking close to the group, while increasing your odds of survival, won't save you from a common scenario such as being successively struck by the reactor followed by a crit from a Vickie. That's certainly enough to lay most squishies low. Unfortunately, a common scenario is for people to simply spam their heals rather than trying to time them to hit after the pulse or use them when they're needed.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
If people are losing that much health and not getting healed up immediately, then it's their own fault for not knowing how to not hurt AM, stay in a relatively tight group, and bring a few people with Rebirth.
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Additionally, while I know to not attack Anti-Matter that doesn't mean everyone in the league is as knowledgeable or even careful. People carelessly AoE'ing near AM, doms and controllers summoning pets, or MM's that let their pets run wild all contribute to a pulse that's going to knock more than 50% of my life. And this is my fault?
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My experiences on Keyes have been with my Dominator more than any others, and the only reason it doesn't go so smoothly for some squishies is they fail to grasp that it's simply a matter of positioning a little bit differently than the tough guys (just like melees have it harder when they have to pogo because of Nova Fist). Go ahead and run around like a loon and pop greens, or stay grouped, get healed, and clear trash while the tough guys click glowies or pull War Walkers to the group, or drag AM around. It's not Rikti Science, it's just different roles for different folks. |
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Please please please tell me this isn't true.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
t h i s p o s t i s a l i e .
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Keyes trial is just so poor in design, it reminds me of some of the games kids make to pass time.
'Here, X unresistable damage, zone-wide for shitz and giggles!'
'Wait, what?'
'Need to make it hard! ... I mean, annoying as hell so you won't do it ever again and we can say that we made something hard, because not many people will be doing it, because it's annoying and then... are you listening?'
'... wha? Oh, stopped caring, sorry.'
Yea, see, I like good design. Keyes is just piss poor design of the 'I'm a god and you're not hur hur hur here's some $%#@ in your face' caliber.
Oh, and if Keyes required you to think, there would be a way to counter/temporarily stop the pulse; because, you know, if there's no way to stop/counter it, than you ain't thinking; You're just dashing through the trial, as fast as you can.
You know, kind of like everything else that doesn't require you to think! What a brilliant thought!
Carrying greens and using one every 30secs isn't thinking, either. Sorry.
Sticking next to someone with a heal aura on auto-fire isn't either; sorry again.
Putting an aura on auto-fire ...
You get the idea.
The hardest part about the Keyes trial, that actually made people somewhat think, was when Anti-Matter could get stuck on the ground. Had to move him around nicely, otherwise he didn't want to follow! What a meanie...
I'm still waiting on a trial that isn't just a 'hit whatever is in front of you and use these temporary powers' mission with a timer.
ive done prolly about 3 dozen keyes trials (2/3 of that was badge runs/attempts), ever since the first run i did on the beta server when it was open beta ive absolutely hated the trial to no end, and since i got all the badges from it about 2 weeks ago ive never done the trial since and do not ever plan to again except maybe on my pain dom mm since healing is the only way to do anything on that trial
reasons i hate the trial:
-very tedious, not difficult, not challenging, just very long and tedious dragging around an AV using the ton of temp powers in triplicate
-massive unavoidable, unresistable dmg is not fun, if it was not autohit then i would not have a problem with it
-final fight is not epic, but boring, the time freezes suck (i have no issues with disintegration or the obliteration beam)
basically the whole trial is one giant snoozefest, just pop a heal on auto and stealth everything, at least in BAF and lambda were actually fighting more stuff and it doesnt take 45-60 minutes to run. IMO i hate all of the trials due to the speedy/rushing mentality, i would rather run a 3 hour ITF than the trials 400 times
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Resource management, positioning, and timing (via not putting an aura on auto-fire). Those all seem to me like things that would fall under strategy.
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Originally Posted by Narkor
Carrying greens and using one every 30secs isn't thinking, either. Sorry.
Sticking next to someone with a heal aura on auto-fire isn't either; sorry again. Putting an aura on auto-fire ... You get the idea. |
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The Keyes trial is great. |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
This trial is awful. If you love it good on you, but all three times I have run it, at least half the league swears to never do it again. I think this time, I'm one of them.
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Yes, it's harder to get the hang of at first.
Yes, it requires actual coordination between teams and team members.
Yes, you need to actually pay attention to whats happening for the whole duration of the trial or you'll die.
And yes you need a competent leader to pull it all together.
And that's what makes it fun. Especially the end battle. We didn't have something like that yet in this game (except the Apex TF maybe, which is great too) and now we do. It fills a game play niche.
The other two trials are pretty straight forward (they're essentially still 'hit the sacks of hp until they keel over' tasks, with some flavor added) and hardly pose a challenge to experienced players. BAF routinely gets successful master runs on PuGs, even when people aren't trying, and people do 8 player Lambda speed runs just because they can ...
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
I think the Avatar of the Hamidon might be tougher than Anti-matter 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There's an unlimited supply of resources; you can always refill at the hospital inside the trial.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Resource management, positioning, and timing (via not putting an aura on auto-fire). Those all seem to me like things that would fall under strategy.
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Positioning is just such of a situational thing, I wouldn't bring it up; but I'd still say it's the hardest part in this whole game.
As for auras on auto fire, most players would rather have a constant source of healing they know they can find somewhere, rather than dropping some mobs faster or whatnot.
And it's not like if it was any different than a lot of the situations found outside the trial: you get low on health, pop the healing aura. Someone else is low? Clicky zee aura. It's just a lot easier when people hug you through the trial.
I'm not about to say 'defenders do no dmg lul keep the aura rolling', but in that specific trial, the situation pretty much calls for something very similar to that newbie mentality. Or at least for those with healing capacities to use them more often, if you'd rather like that.
I pretty much agree with most of you. I'm sure once most of the player base has run it more than a couple of times, they'll go more smoothly.
The trouble is that because BAF is smoothly made with it's objectives clearly defined, and Lambda is also manageable - although the squishier toons probably don't enjoy the warehouse or the lab much - people aren't as likely to do the more challenging keyes. Now, it could be just my perspective from my one single run, but Keyes is not...intuitive. If the leader doesn't say "Go here and do this" - you'd never know to go there and do that.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
I think Keyes stinks and is definitely the worst of the trials. I've done it a number of times and it isn't fun. It also seems like not everyone is needed to contribute; many are used as decoys and secondary assistance. Nope, don't like it. I consider it Stinkasauraus Rex.
If people are losing that much health and not getting healed up immediately, then it's their own fault for not knowing how to not hurt AM, stay in a relatively tight group, and bring a few people with Rebirth.
My experiences on Keyes have been with my Dominator more than any others, and the only reason it doesn't go so smoothly for some squishies is they fail to grasp that it's simply a matter of positioning a little bit differently than the tough guys (just like melees have it harder when they have to pogo because of Nova Fist).
Go ahead and run around like a loon and pop greens, or stay grouped, get healed, and clear trash while the tough guys click glowies or pull War Walkers to the group, or drag AM around.
It's not Rikti Science, it's just different roles for different folks.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill