it cant be said too many times: Keyes Island feedback
By
Abraxxus,
Posted on: 2011-08-07 14:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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And when you do you remove yourself from contributing to the trial. The resources come at the cost of participation.|
Originally Posted by Narkor
There's an unlimited supply of resources; you can always refill at the hospital inside the trial.
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| Positioning is just such of a situational thing, I wouldn't bring it up; but I'd still say it's the hardest part in this whole game. |
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As for auras on auto fire, most players would rather have a constant source of healing they know they can find somewhere, rather than dropping some mobs faster or whatnot. And it's not like if it was any different than a lot of the situations found outside the trial: you get low on health, pop the healing aura. Someone else is low? Clicky zee aura. It's just a lot easier when people hug you through the trial. |
The hardest part of keyes is figuring out why the sky isn't all smoggy anymore.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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You make a good point, the first good point to defend Keyes' gameplay that I've seen. The verticality is much better used than in the rest of the game and that's definitely a significant step forward.
| Positioning in this trial requires more awareness than most of the game, especially given the unique utilization of vertical space. It may be situational, but this trial is a situation in which that awareness is important. |
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It's because our moral purity has cleaned away the loyalist dirt.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
The hardest part of keyes is figuring out why the sky isn't all smoggy anymore.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Also the most boring trial in the game.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The BAF is the ITF of the Incarnate system
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Lambda>Keyes>BAF
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
Yeah, It's annoying.
I got the completion badge and I'm done with it, just running BAFs for Astrals and alternating with Lambda for Empyrean.
Keyes is unfun, not doing it again unless I'm assisting with badges.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Horusaurus, I just sent the url of your avatar to every friend I know.
[IMG]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee63/Abraxxus-CoH/brax3.png[/IMG]
Justice Server
Global: @Abraxxus
I like the Keyes itrial but have never successfully completed one in my 4 tries. I would love to just finish one. First time I was put on the bunker doors, didnt really know what I was doing but it worked out fine and had we had no problems until the end fight, then fail. 2nd time no problem until the end then people started quiting then fail on end fight. Last two times I tanked Anti around the reactors, no problems until the end fight, again both times fail fighting Anti. I dont know why people are just falling apart there. This was all on my peacebringer as well.
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Well, people were totally up for repeating the same trial thirty times, so it's only natural. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You'd think the devs would have learned that repetition of the same task 3 times in the same trial is boring after all the feedback they got on Hami 2.0.
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"We heard you like repeating content so we put repeating content in your repeating content so you could repeat content while you repeated content."
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I think you just stumbled on the meaning of Trial. It's supposed to be harder than a TF. For some, its a timer tacked on to make you rush, for others, it's more objectives at the same time.|
Originally Posted by FlyingCodeMonkey
I dislike Keyes because it represents far too many objectives performed under constant, extreme, hostile environmental conditions.
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Well, that and it takes ten full minutes to explain what to do, to those who are unfamiliar. With BAF and Lambda, a person can pretty much follow along. Not so much Keyes. |
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
I was (sort of) okay with Keyes until the Alpha/Beta crap started. That's the point where I just gave up and went into "spam lighting til it dies" mode. Could you guys get any more unintuitive? Do I need to have a glossary onhand to play endgame content now? I found myself having to stop (a risky enough move already) right-click the debuff, and read the info to find out wha tin blazes it's supposedly doing to me. And y'know what? I still am not 100% certain, and what I think it does was nowhere in the game. A freind told me he thinks he hear somewhere that it deals damage if someone with the opposite debuff is near you.
...HOW THE HELL SHOULD I KNOW!?
Too many times during Keyes I had to stop because I was too confused to do anything. If someone hadn't warned me not to hit Antimatter, I would have unloaded on him. And y'know what? The game would not have told me the harm I was doing! Complexity can be fun, a challenge is a challenge, but this is just stupid. How about a freakin' warning? Oh, that's right, the warning would take up half the screen with text. And if this is what I have to look forward to for the rest of the endgame content, then I'm done. I've doe Keye's once, and I doubt I will ever do it again. There is just too much crap flying around and not enough time to explain all the subtle nuances that are killing you.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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Not sure if you're confused, missed it, or if this is just sarcasm...because the first time Anti-Matter shows up, there is the big warning letters screaming "DAMAGING HIM INCREASE DAMAGE FROM THE PULSE" or something very similar. Granted, there are so many other needless warnings that it's very easy to just sort of phase it out, I guess.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Too many times during Keyes I had to stop because I was too confused to do anything. If someone hadn't warned me not to hit Antimatter, I would have unloaded on him. And y'know what? The game would not have told me the harm I was doing! Complexity can be fun, a challenge is a challenge, but this is just stupid. How about a freakin' warning? Oh, that's right, the warning would take up half the screen with text. And if this is what I have to look forward to for the rest of the endgame content, then I'm done. I've doe Keye's once, and I doubt I will ever do it again. There is just too much crap flying around and not enough time to explain all the subtle nuances that are killing you.
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So, when the unseen narrator says not to hurt Keyes, that doesn't count as the game telling you? And when the Question Mark in the objective window that you're supposed to click when you don't know what to do brings up a window saying that, that doesn't count either? And when there's a big popup that fills the screen that says "Damaging him increases pulse damage," that's just a graphics glitch?
Also, it sounds like you decided, upon hearing about the Alpha/Beta thing, that since there was one mechanic you didn't understand, you might as well not pay any attention to any of them.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Well, I apparently missed it. Or I just don't recall that particular warning because, as I said, someone warned me beforehand.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Not sure if you're confused, missed it, or if this is just sarcasm...because the first time Anti-Matter shows up, there is the big warning letters screaming "DAMAGING HIM INCREASE DAMAGE FROM THE PULSE" or something very similar. Granted, there are so many other needless warnings that it's very easy to just sort of phase it out, I guess.
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The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
I led a Keyes just a bit ago because of this thread. First time leading it and we did alright.
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I used to hold this view, but now, I think Keyes will typically require the long exposition of explanation. Since it's run so infrequently compared to the other two. There's a good chance that a plurality needs reminder as to how to work it.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
I think you just stumbled on the meaning of Trial. It's supposed to be harder than a TF. For some, its a timer tacked on to make you rush, for others, it's more objectives at the same time.
You're still running into people that either haven't done one at all, or haven't done a successful one. This was the case for all new content at one point, and like the old content, you won't have to explain how Keyes works after a time. Not something to be concerned about, unless you just don't like being organized. |
I'd like for it to be clockworkable like the other two [ie, the vast majority know the drill, and just going through the steps], but I seriously doubt it'll occur due to the infrequency of the runs.
Now, if they find a way to improve the reward/time ratio for Keyes, it may improve, but I'm also not anticipating that getting improved/fixed.
Let's Dance!
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This exactly; oh how I agree!
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Originally Posted by FlyingCodeMonkey
I dislike Keyes because it represents far too many objectives performed under constant, extreme, hostile environmental conditions.
Well, that and it takes ten full minutes to explain what to do, to those who are unfamiliar. With BAF and Lambda, a person can pretty much follow along. Not so much Keyes. Anyway, if the death pulse hit for around 25% damage instead of about 50%, and it weren't necessary to collect THIRTY freaking temps, three per console, for numerous consoles, all the way up the three towers, while people are being scattered by the death pulse, where maybe half of them even understand the temp powers usage constraints, I'd be fine with the rest. That combination of vast number of objectives and constant wide-area mega-damage kills my interest. BAF is very straightforward. Lambda mostly so. Keyes simply tried to combine TOO MANY different elements and hazard conditions in a single trial. While I appreciate a challenge for incarnated characters, Keyes is simply tedious. |
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To be fair, Keyes has a great reward/time ratio...for people who haven't unlocked their slots.
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Originally Posted by reiella
Now, if they find a way to improve the reward/time ratio for Keyes, it may improve, but I'm also not anticipating that getting improved/fixed.
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Keys is an awesome Trial if people would pay attention to what needs to be done. I bet alot of people dont know that u can secure the reactors BEFORE Anti even shows up. For that to happen would take the ultimate lvl of cooperation.
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Originally Posted by mogunz02
Keys is an awesome Trial if people would pay attention to what needs to be done. I bet alot of people dont know that u can secure the reactors BEFORE Anti even shows up. For that to happen would take the ultimate lvl of cooperation.
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To be honest I doubt if at this point more than about half of any Keyes team has any idea what is going on moment to moment. I have read multiple guides and done the trial 4 times (3 successes 1 fail) and still usually have no idea where I am supposed to be going or doing at the appointed time. I tend to see people scattered all over the map, running every which direction because many of them don't know what is going on. My suspicion is the vast majority of Keyes victories are carried by 8 to 12 core league members, with everyone else maybe understanding not to attack the AV and basically just trying to follow the crowd, without any real understanding of what they are supposed to do. I know my first two runs I didn't use a single temp power despite getting 4 or 5 of them dropped on me because it was too unclear what I was supposed to be doing, even after reading multiple guides. The vertical element on the map makes sticking near people much harder than it might otherwise be.
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I would totally love to see a Keyes team that was coordinated enough to finish the second and third reactors (or at least the second, since there's no need to clear enemies) before Anti-Matter can show up. That'd be one finely tuned machine, there.|
Originally Posted by mogunz02
Keys is an awesome Trial if people would pay attention to what needs to be done. I bet alot of people dont know that u can secure the reactors BEFORE Anti even shows up. For that to happen would take the ultimate lvl of cooperation.
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That said, people seem really bad at following directions on Keyes. I don't know if it's because the variety of, and consistent changes of mechanics makes them too confused, or they don't care, or people just don't remember to add League chat, but it does seem to be the case.
I was on a Keyes earlier today that was going for Bunker Buster, an attempt that everyone discussed and seemed to agree upon before starting, and where both the leader and others repeatedly told people "Only [NameA], [NameB], and [NameC] should be attacking the bunker doors". Of course, about half the League then started attacking the door at another bunker.
I've been on three so far. Twice with a kinetics defender, and once with a fire/rad controller. All of the trials succeeded, but I'm never doing it again.
+ Bizarrely and arbitrarily complicated mechanics.
+ General chaos in execution.
+ Lots of arbitrary and meaningless defeats.
In all three attempts, it ended up being a zerg-rush from the hospital for squishies. If you don't have a lot of HP to begin with, a >50% damage pulse and a random attack from some mob means you're back in hospital again. Most of the time is spent running around trying to dodge damage and heal back up to full before the next pulse. It's both tedious and disheartening. It would be more bearable if it felt there was a coherent plot and sound reasons for the objectives and the obstacles, but instead they all seem ad hoc post facto justifications for the mechanics of the trial.
I'm hoping that the threat of VR drops only from Keyes' is just a bad joke.
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You forgot to mention how the rewards suck compared to Time for Time vs the other trials.|
Originally Posted by halfflat
I've been on three so far. Twice with a kinetics defender, and once with a fire/rad controller. All of the trials succeeded, but I'm never doing it again.
+ Bizarrely and arbitrarily complicated mechanics. + General chaos in execution. + Lots of arbitrary and meaningless defeats. In all three attempts, it ended up being a zerg-rush from the hospital for squishies. If you don't have a lot of HP to begin with, a >50% damage pulse and a random attack from some mob means you're back in hospital again. Most of the time is spent running around trying to dodge damage and heal back up to full before the next pulse. It's both tedious and disheartening. It would be more bearable if it felt there was a coherent plot and sound reasons for the objectives and the obstacles, but instead they all seem ad hoc post facto justifications for the mechanics of the trial. I'm hoping that the threat of VR drops only from Keyes' is just a bad joke. |
I've done a couple successful ones, they are not hard if everyone knows what they are doing, but as the person above me stated in a more intelligent fashion, the trial is PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE stupid.
Which dev sat back and said "yea, they're going to LOVE this!".
The player base is easy to read, I promise.
"PvP Messiah"
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Judging by the polarity in this thread, I fall into one of two camps;|
Originally Posted by Cold_X
You forgot to mention how the rewards suck compared to Time for Time vs the other trials.
I've done a couple successful ones, they are not hard if everyone knows what they are doing, but as the person above me stated in a more intelligent fashion, the trial is PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE stupid. Which dev sat back and said "yea, they're going to LOVE this!". The player base is easy to read, I promise. |
1. I'm as dumb as PANCAKE cause I don't follow instructions and just want to mash buttons; or
2. I'm an okay player, but the trial is borked
I don't want to say which one I am, as I think this debate could continue until I'm too old and tired to care (you can make up your own minds), but I've done this trial several times and I will avoid doing it again.
Why? I don't consider myself a hard core game, meaning I play on average about 14 hours a week (maybe to some people that is hard-core, but I consider it 'semi-casual'). I like to make the most out of that time by doing a variety of things, not just do trials (I do one, two, maybe three in a row and I've had enough). For my investment of time, I just don't feel Keye's cuts it.
I've read the official guide, and tried to take note of all the flashy messages and narrations that come up on screen, but except for one run (where the League leader was barking orders madly, poor guy) I would still enter that trial thinking 'hmmm, what do I do now?'.
Maybe I am just dumb, but I'm smart enough to know I won't do that trial very often.
The only feedback I can give about Keyes is that I can't give feedback about Keyes - nobody runs it when I'm on.
I still think it's poorly designed and will feel that way until we get another trial where heals and regeneration are disabled and damage is autohit, and another trial where heals and regeneration are disabled and damage is unresistable... No, wait, that'd just make two more poorly designed trials.
It's just a way to indirectly nerf damage mitigation without having to deal with the outcry that would result. It evens the gap between Joe Casual and Jim Minmaxer. It's a consolified version of the gameplay, except it's still on PC, so we get to enjoy watered down complexity* while still retaining all the bugs and crashes that make computers such a fantastic platform to game on. Yay.
*not that this game is that deep to start with. Obligatory comment for the obligatory people who will disagree with my argument and choose to read every statement as an absolute rather than a relative like it is.