Bitter but still paying...

Actually, they kind of did, though knowing what we know now, this was probably more due to building up paid content for Freedom than due to the Incarnate system itself. Also, the people who wanted post-50 content and the people who wanted raids are not the same set of people, nor is one set of people strictly speaking a subset of the other. So you end up with a situation where some people want to keep progressing their favourite 50s but don't want to participate in raids to do so. Hardly an unfair position to take.

This is close to the reality of the situation. I've been in the situation of wanting to voice my concern about one aspect of the game or another, but when certain people made it a point to tell me how I was wrong regardless of what I said, how worthless my opinion was and how much they wished the developers never listened to me, among other such nonsense, that pissed me off far more than whatever it was that I was going to complain about to begin with. When people react with disproportionate hostility towards dissenting opinions, those dissenting opinions become just that more entrenched. You can't change a person's mind or behaviour by belittling him.

I rather doubt that much of what we say to each other over personal chat reaches anyone it's actually about. Some days, though, I do wish the development team did read our personal chat, if for no reason other that people tend to be a LOT more honest and direct with their friends than they'll ever be on a public medium, if for no reason other than because friends are far less likely insult or belittle you over opinions you probably share anyway. I find that things said from player to player inside the actual game are far more representative of public opinion that anything we say here on the forums.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

And there is the problem.

You may not agree that "glacial pace" is not progress since it still goes forward, but the thing that makes it non-viable is the "glacial" bit.

While I think we are all a product of our delusions, as I subscribe to the Zen philosophy that everything we think is delusion, I must say, knowing that I will be the bad guy...

Pot. Kettle. Black.

As much as I am baffled by the posting perspective I created this topic to discuss, I am actually appalled at the constant stream of worthless posts you put forth under the guise of praising this game.

If you think for a moment that your view of how to play the game is the only right way, which is IMO exactly what you rant on and on about, you might want to more closely examine your own delusions.

GG, your posts IME have been far more damaging to this community than any of the constant nay-sayers.

I'm thinking about getting somehting to eat right now - does that mean that I'm only deluding myself into thinking I'm hungry?

What will really cook your noodle, is if you put that Zen ideal to the philosophical concept of "I think therefore I am".

Are you?

I don't think so - I just ate, and I don't feel hungry anymore

While I appreciate what you are doing, and think it's quite cute and comical, I don't think the Golden Girl's attitude will ever be changed, no matter what tactic is employed. She will never admit to any sort of wrongness or error in judgement or even phrasing, and will choose to ignore certain statements and selectively snip and repost others to avoid ever being shown to be wrong.

It is actually quite infuriating, and is why I have given up on that track entirely.

Which is fine. They've also been shovelling loads of other content (TF's, Story Arcs, new zones....)

Really, the incarnate content (two TF's, three trials, one story arc) is VERY small compared to the non-incarnate stuff we've gotten the last few issues.

Except that the Incarnate system is still an alternate system of advancement that really isn't required except for running Incarnate content. i'm already on record as considering the solo route to Incarnate power as being too slow. The Devs have already stated that they are looking into solo options for Incarnates, so i expect that there will eventually be paths for players who want to advance at a reasonable pace in the system without playing multi-team trials.

My disagreement was with the assertions that by adding the system at all the Devs had somehow removed the ability for solo players to advance their characters. The same options exist as before although they obviously have little appeal for characters that are already IOd out. i suppose the issue is knowing that there's ways to make your character much more powerful when it requires doing things you find unpleasant or impossible to do. Unfortunately there's not much to be done about that at the moment except do other content.

Also this.

This statement is so broad as to be almost meaningless.
I think it is exceptionally well documented on these forums that EVERY system or aspect of the game has SOMEONE that doesn't like it. So, yes, not everyone likes the Trials style of play. So what?

Actually, the incarnate system is the Big Thing we are all supposed to be excited about. The preview of it was supposed to be in Going Rogue but it got delayed because of player feedback. The irony of statements from assorted posters about devs not listening hopefully resonates in full on that one.

Anyway, part of the "problem" is that players did get excited about it, and everything leading up from the Alpha slot seemed to point in a different direction. When the big unveil happened we ended up with... 2 missions to farm with a huge group--one of them laggy to the point of brokeneness--with a promise of 4 by the end of the year. To say it was an unpleasant shock is bit of understatement, at least in my case. I kept waiting for them to say no, this isn't really the big system. I am still waiting for them to say that. I don't feel this release is up to City of Heroes quality.

As far as the incarnate system being an "alternate" system, it is only in so far as you have the alternative to play to level 40 and stop or keep going to 50. I am dealing with it for the moment mainly because I assume they will fix it. Meanwhile I post here because the job allows it, and do most of my playing in rival games. I did play a few trials this week and they were ok (the trials themselves are pretty good) but even the naysayers of the naysayers admit the only way to deal with this system is to intentionally limit your exposure to it.

Of course you're full. People keep feeding the trolls even though they are warned not to.

And this will be my first and last response to a GG post.

Yeah, I'm not a vocal minority, either, at least by the same logic. That doesn't seem to stop people from using that argument in an attempt to "shut me up," as a poster once put it. Majority and minority arguments are pointless at their base. They're no better than "My dad can beat up your dad, so Incarnates are great!" arguments. We, as players, have no realistic view of what opinion is how popular across the entire game's population.

Still, if we are to stop using the "majority" argument, we must stop using "minority" one at the same time, as well.

It's an alternative to what? To shutting down the game and having a sandwich? To creating a new character and starting over? The Incarnate system is only as much an alternative as playing the level 40-50 game is an alternative system to not playing the 40-50 game. It's as optional as the option I have of logging into the game or not logging into the game.

Can we please stop making this argument? The Incarnate system is only "optional" to the extent that the entire game is optional, in that I don't HAVE to play it if I don't want to. It's not an "alternative" system in any way, shape or form, since a supposed alternative post-50 progression system has to be the alternative to another post-50 progression system, and another post-50 progression system does not exist. It has never existed.

The Incarnate system is the only post-50 progression system we have. Arguing that there is some kind of arbitrary "end" to the game mid-way through its content and anything beyond that is "optional" is poinless, because I can make the same argument about level 23 or the point at which you earn 10 million Inf total, or the point when you defeat an Archvillain. The Incarnate system is the only way to progress a character, and as such there is nothing optional about it, nor is there an alternative to it.

Yeah, and then there's this - as with any paid expansion and smart business venture, the studio marketed Going Rogue and the Incarnate system as the best thing since sliced bread. Even I - who had SEVERE reservations even beforehand - bought into the hype and kind of accepted what the Alpha slot seemed to constitute. But the Alpha slot was a lie, because the rest of the Incarnate system was and is nothing like it.

Once upon a time, raiding may have been the default activity of MMO players, the sort of thing you simply just did without asking for justification. In this day and age, however, I don't think it has as mass of an appeal as it once might have. Given this, it's just entirely too unfortunate that they chose to start stockpiling Freedom content pretty much as soon as Going Rogue launched, as it made it appear that Incarnate content was eclipsing everything else.

If I'd known ahead of time that something completely different was eclipsing development on the game, including development of Incarnate content, I might have been quite a bit less upset.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Wrong. You're a minority precisely because you are vocal.

I believe the point is that the incarnate content doesen't *lose* you anything. You can still do everything you could do pre-I18.

This ^

The term "vocal minority" as used in most malicious arguments does not describe "a minority defined by being vocal" but rather "a minority defined by having a wrong opinion that also happens to be vocal." All too often I've seen people say "But what about <insert game subject here>? When will we see that?" only to be told "I hope the developers never work on <game subject> because only a small minority like that." If you don't want me to claim I'm in a majority, then extend me the same courtesy you ask for and don't claim I'm in a minority.

Well... It kind of does, but hear me out. I have a whole bunch of 50 characters. Even after rerolling four of them back to level 1, I still have about 8 or 9, I think. I like these characters and I do want to play them. And I would, if I could progress them. Back when we had no end game content, sure, I still couldn't play them, but at least I had the benefit of believing that one day, I might. Now that we actually have post-50 progression and I find myself caring little for it... I no longer have that hope. Does anyone here seriously believe we'll get another type of post-50 progression? Because I certainly don't.

Credit where credit is due - the development team will probably institute a non-Trial path in a couple of years' time. They're already doing things I'd thought they'd given up on, so I won't put it past them. But until such a time, I keep looking at a system that constitutes the opportunity I've always wanted: To make my 50s even stronger, but which I can't take part in because it requires me to do the one thing I really don't want do: Grind multi-team instances.

A lot of posters here seem to misrepresent my position and that of people like me, in claiming in claiming that we want everything for free, even things that are "optional." That's not at all the case. I see a progression system I genuinely want to participate, but I just don't like the activities involved in participating in it. Am I losing something I had before? Not counting teams below level 50, no, not really. But I AM losing an opportunity because of implementation.

On the flip side, the "this is optional" crowd do have a point. Incarnate powers really have no place in regular level 50 content. We were already more than strong enough to handle that content even before we became Incarnates, and throwing more power at it doesn't make it that much more fun, outside of the fleeting fun totally dominating everything with even less effort. But what Incarnate power is most directly intended for is Incarnate content, and right now that content is Trial-only. There is, quite literally, no point for me to seek out Incarnate powers without doing Trials, because Trials are the only place where they're truly relevant. It's like PvP recipes - why would I need a non-PvP way to get them when PvP is what they're mostly useful for? What sense does that make?

In that regard, I can agree that the Incarnate system is "optional," but I consider that its failing, rather than its feature. Godlike power is most impressive, to my eyes at least, when it manifests not in situations where it is badly overshadowed by even greater power and needs the help of godlike power from dozens of other people. On the contrary, it is most impressive when it manifests alone against a humbling display of majesty and authority. What this means is that the Incarnate system really needs to have more types of content that aren't as much of a clusterhug. Incarnates are, thus far, only optional in the sense that they are very, very limited and incomplete. The more complete they become, the less this argument will work, and sooner or later the dominance of raids will need to be reexamined.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, that's a moot point, as the point of the critique is the non-viability of post-50 progress without grinding trials, not whether the rest of the pre-50 content magically disappeared.

Farming out accolades.
Farming out IO components/recipes for your build.

Now I do understand you tend to stray away from the later one. And for a lot of people whose characters are in question, they've already depleted those avenues. And still others have no desire to go through the 'grind' to ramp their builds up to purple or orange. But I'd contest it's still an alternate of the end-game progression.

And I believe at one time, the idea for the invention system was to be a form of item progression, y'know if the whole deal with Battalion ever actually materialized.

[ Add ]
Did come up with an interesting response to one of your later comments, or at least I think it's interesting


It's a fair assessment. The only contention I'd make is the tone of the incarnate trials is more trying to compare against the massive franchise story arcs like the Secret Wars or the Infinity Wars. I'd tend to line it up more with the various Infinity-lines simply because of the Cosmic level Superpower aspect. Well I had thought it was interesting, I blame my lack of sleep on the lack of details .

Actually, the way it's generally used is that a minority that is vocal makes a lot more noise than a silent majority, it's not about right or wrong, but about popular support.

Basically, the amount of noise you make is only vaguely connected with the actual level of popular support for your opinions.

In most cases I'd take a purpled-out (or even just oranged-out) IO build without incarnate powers rather than an incarnated-out one without IO's.

Seriously.

Of course, both is better

Point of clarity from me, by Orange, I meant PvP-IOs .

Again you ignore the fact the DEVs have tied Costumes, Auras and other content to these gates.

I see this nonsense repeated Ad Nauseum.

There is far more being gated behind trials than just powers you don't need except in trials.

And twirled their moustaches as they did it.