Bitter but still paying...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-08 13:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I don't understand it.
I have seen so many posts over the years from (often the same) bitter, unhappy, angst-ridden players. Why would you continue to play a game you hate so much and/or that is so full of things you hate? While many might think it's more a matter of the bitter posters actually loving the game and wanting it to improve, I cannot really believe that when some of them post that they want the game to fail. The only logical conclusions I have been able to make are either they are sock-puppets for other games, just enjoy being upset or have no other outlet in RL where they think they are heard. After some of the more recent tirades I have read, had I gotten that upset over a change in the game, I would have simply canceled and moved on to another game. With that thought, I have seen posters try to somehow justify continuing to play a game they don't like from the perspective that this game sucks the least and is therefore their only choice, to which I can only say, "Huh?" I don't see, logically, how playing a game you hate can be healthy for you either. One of the most well know exchanges of "Doctor, it hurts when I raise arm" "Then don't raise your arm" comes to mind. Thoughts? |
Without knowing who you are talking about specifically it is imposible to answer. I don't think anyone really "hates" the game, even among the most outspoken and generally negative people out there.
People tend to write about what upsets them. Ironically, what seems to upset quite a number of players is the opinions of other players in themselves. A lot of the longer expositions are less about that one negative player's opinion as it is about the back and forth drama of the confrontation between them and other posters.
In the case of incarnate specifically, part of the irony of all of that is some of the ringleaders telling the "main" player base to be quiet are known to be members of the closed beta, where they are asked specifically for their feedback and in some cases changes are made. The implications of that should be fairly obvious.
I don't hate City of Heroes. I love it. I started it back on launch date, and loved the concept, loved the world, love everything about it. I spent years of my life dedicated to it as my first and only MMO.
Then things started to change, I felt for the worse. I started seeing a change in the game, from a fun casual game with a fantastic storyline, to a grindfest like every other MMO out there who's stories never moved, never advanced.
That's when I stopped playing actively, but kept paying my subscription fee.
Why? Two things:
- I loved the COMMUNITY, so much so that I even started my own forum for those that can't or won't post on the official boards anymore and,
- Because I still held out the glimmer of hope, that my prayers would be answered, that the course would be reversed, that the Dev team would go back to the "old ways" of actively talking directly to the playerbase, discussing things, and joking around with the lot of us. That the existing storylines would be moved forward, so that us heroes would feel as if we were making a dent in the world.
/Fire Blast Defenders will cause me to play again, for a while. But yes, I am bitter and still paying, and this is why.
My relationship with this game and its community outlasted my first marriage and three moves across the country. I hope that the Dev team gives me reason to make it last longer.
Hope.
I love the game. With that out of the way ....
... I cant stand peope griping about peope griping. Tho I dont mind people griping about people griping about griping, just so we are clear. 
Your personal incredulity about other people's posts is of no consequence. Or maybe I should have responded with "troll post is troll" since that would also be silly.
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Some people like stuff, but sometimes things need to be addressed. On the other spectrum are the die hard fans who believe their game and the devs are infallible and if you have anything negative to say, even if valid, then you are wrong or trying to troll and you should GIT OUT!
Thanks for all the responses.
For now, I am going to go with "some people just like to complain and argue while others think they know better than the developers" and leave it at that.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Thanks for all the responses.
For now, I am going to go with "some people just like to complain and argue while others think they know better than the developers" and leave it at that. |
And some people just like to start threads to troll passive aggressively.
I promise that I will no longer complain about things that make me unhappy or bitter.
ha-ha
Why do people gripe so much, particularly on the boards?
To quote Minsc, "Squeeky wheel gets the kick!"
Well, sort of.... As has been stated previously I think it mostly attributable to players wanting their own pet peeves fixed NAO!plzthnxbye.
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While I understand your inference, the fact of the matter is, I genuinely would like to understand why people get so worked up over changes in the game.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
And some people just like to start threads to troll passive aggressively.
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Really, I would love to get more of an understanding besides 'some people are just that way'.
It just does not make any logical sense to me to get as worked up as some posters and players seem to over changes and what-not in the game.
So while my method may well appear to be a 'passive aggressive troll', it is not, in fact, my intent.
I am simply fascinated with what makes people tick and I prefer to discuss things bluntly.
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Originally Posted by Bigfeeler
Why do people gripe so much, particularly on the boards?
To quote Minsc, "Squeeky wheel gets the kick!" Well, sort of.... As has been stated previously I think it mostly attributable to players wanting their own pet peeves fixed NAO!plzthnxbye. |
Any agenda, IMO, is better accomplished through rational discourse if your intent is to sway analytic people of the type that write code and have to make business decisions that show ROI.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Because some people take this game more seriously and personally than you do? The same could be said about virtually any hobby.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
It just does not make any logical sense to me to get as worked up as some posters and players seem to over changes and what-not in the game.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
While I understand your inference, the fact of the matter is, I genuinely would like to understand why people get so worked up over changes in the game.
Really, I would love to get more of an understanding besides 'some people are just that way'. It just does not make any logical sense to me to get as worked up as some posters and players seem to over changes and what-not in the game. So while my method may well appear to be a 'passive aggressive troll', it is not, in fact, my intent. I am simply fascinated with what makes people tick and I prefer to discuss things bluntly. |
Again, without knowing who "some posters" are there isn't a whole lot that can be discussed. It seems apparant to me you are talking about someone specific, or a specific group of people, in a veiled way. I apologize if I am misreading your intentions. Given my own writing style I certainly cannot accuse anyone else of being blunt.
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While there are certainly names I could name right now, those have changed over the years.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Again, without knowing who "some posters" are there isn't a whole lot that can be discussed. It seems apparant to me you are talking about someone specific, or a specific group of people, in a veiled way. I apologize if I am misreading your intentions. Given my own writing style I certainly cannot accuse anyone else of being blunt.
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Anyone that frequents the boards could easily find a few without looking too hard, simply by opening any of the discussions about the most recent changes.
The only group are those, as Westley mentions, that perhaps take the game seriously.
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Originally Posted by Westley
Because some people take this game more seriously and personally than you do? The same could be said about virtually any hobby.
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I have been playing games as a main hobby for about 35 years now, so it is just the one I have the most experience with really.
But I see sports fans in my area get depressed for weeks at a time over what some people they have never met did on some field they have never set foot upon, much less actually participated in the event.
With games I can understand getting a bit more emotionally invested in PvP, especially team-based competitions, but getting as worked up as sports fans do when they can, in no way, have absolutely any influence over the final outcome, baffles me more than high level calculus.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
If you try to conclusively figure out humans using pure logic, you will fail miserably. Take my word as an autistic that thinks logically 90% of the time.
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But even the chemical balances that cause illogical behavior can be analyzed. |
Originally Posted by Westley
If you try to conclusively figure out humans using pure logic, you will fail miserably. Take my word as an autistic that thinks logically 90% of the time.
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Really though, this is the wall that I hit whenever I go down this road.
Humans, in general, seem to be completely ruled by their emotions moment to moment and have very little desire to look inside themselves to understand why they think and feel the way they do.
IME, they even resent people like me that want to figure out _why_ they think and feel they the things they do, be it the spicy food they ate giving them heartburn and thus making them cranky, or the way they have been taught to think and act by society.
The Mind is a beautiful and terrible thing.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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ZIIIIIIIIIING!|
Originally Posted by NuclearToast
Someone else: The devs have said several times on the UStream chats that bitter tears taste the sweetest to them. NT: Must be why they're not coming out with animated hair. --NT |
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...as for why people post rage-filled rants, its not because they hate the game and yearn to quit. They post rage-filled rants because they LOVE this game.
I'll give you an example of someone who loves this game but hates it at the same time.
I PvPed exclusively pre-i13 I played PvE as a means to participate in PvP and enjoyed the game a great deal...Well i13 came around and PvPers were told that they didn't matter, my entire global friends list left the game, and I was pissed at how everything went down.
At the same time I had started playing on Virtue, so I continued to play less often but on a different server just for RP/PvE and eventually that became enough for me to stick around.
But while I was still around I was still extremely bitter about how i13 was handled and how PvPers were told that basically we didn't matter to the Devs. I am still absolutely jaded towards the Devs and take everything the say as an empty promise. It didn't help that GR was not worth the money it cost at release. Given what has been released that was tied to it makes it better but I don't approve of paying for promised content that is coming "Soon."
I still enjoy the game and the incarnate stuff has made me happy I stayed, I love it. But that doesn't change the history of this game and what has happened regularly when I give the Devs a bit of trust.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
I can't speak for others, but...
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I don't hate most of the game. If I did, you wouldn't see another post from me. Notice how I said most? The parts I hate, I truly and deeply hate. Things I feel that deeply about, I speak up about.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Why would you continue to play a game you hate so much and/or that is so full of things you hate?
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
While many might think it's more a matter of the bitter posters actually loving the game and wanting it to improve, I cannot really believe that when some of them post that they want the game to fail.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
The only logical conclusions I have been able to make are either they are sock-puppets for other games, just enjoy being upset or have no other outlet in RL where they think they are heard.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
After some of the more recent tirades I have read, had I gotten that upset over a change in the game, I would have simply canceled and moved on to another game.
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I don't agree with some of the developer's choices. I think some of the choices downright stink (random reward tables at the end of trials and the participation system as a whole). Some of the game has been neglected in the extreme (Bases, PVP) while other parts have been introduced that negatively impact on some aspects that I find fun (several Incarnate trial badges).
However I think most of the game is wonderful, from the costume creator and other artwork to the world setting and story.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I was very excited about this game prior to its release, and disappointed with it once I got my hands on it. I would love to have a better superhero game to play, and I have tried the others that have come out, but thus far this is the best there is.
Of course, I don't think I spew nearly as much vitriol onto the boards these days, but I have been quite vocal in the past to the point that people questioned why I play a game that I hate. Ultimately, I think it's because I love many of the characters I've created here. Though sometimes I think it's because I'm addicted to these message boards. 
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Actually I found one thing about the Issue 20 pre-beta to be more than just ironic and tragically accurate. The developers selectively ignored feedback that has since been proven accurate.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In the case of incarnate specifically, part of the irony of all of that is some of the ringleaders telling the "main" player base to be quiet are known to be members of the closed beta, where they are asked specifically for their feedback and in some cases changes are made. The implications of that should be fairly obvious.
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For instance, the majority of the outspoken players in the pre-beta (ie. people posting on the pre-beta forums, not just me) were incredibly outspoken about the Incarnate Trial Reward Tables. Other players, respected players (like Zombie Man), told the developers in a clear warning what the player reaction to the reward tables would be. They were right. We were NOT told about the participation metric before Issue 20 went live. The developers dug in and refused to budge despite being told what the reaction would be.
Now does this mean that players hate the game? No. Does it mean that players hate certain aspects? Yeah.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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To be honest, just as many people said the reward table was working fine (or only needed a few minor adjustment) so it's not as if there was consensus on the subject.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually I found one thing about the Issue 20 pre-beta to be more than just ironic and tragically accurate. The developers selectively ignored feedback that has since been proven accurate.
For instance, the majority of the outspoken players in the pre-beta (ie. people posting on the pre-beta forums, not just me) were incredibly outspoken about the Incarnate Trial Reward Tables. Other players, respected players (like Zombie Man), told the developers in a clear warning what the player reaction to the reward tables would be. They were right. We were NOT told about the participation metric before Issue 20 went live. The developers dug in and refused to budge despite being told what the reaction would be. Now does this mean that players hate the game? No. Does it mean that players hate certain aspects? Yeah. |
I don't really LOVE this game. I like some parts of it, and some parts are pretty bad. But overall I play it mostly becuase it's relatively innofensive and has a fun community: I don't really need to focus on it like I had for certain other MMORPG's. And that's what kept me subscribed for seven years I guess.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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The simple truth is that some people are only happy when they are complaining about stuff.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
OK so maybe someone paid for more time than they ended up enjoying it.
That does not explain the posters I have seen for years and years posting the same rage-filled rants. And, even if you have paid up for a while longer, why would you take the time then to come and post about hating the game rather than just go do something fun? (I do realize trolling is fun for some people.) |
Take P_P for example. When a certain other game came out she made several rants here about how much she hated that game, yet she still bought a lifetime subscription to it.
Must be nice to have $200 bucks to throw away on a game she didn't like.
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You know, even though I have you on ignore, I can't help catching glipmses of your posts in other people's quotes, and I keep being reminded of why I put you on ignore to begin with. You and people like you are a big part of the reasons why me and people like me complain so much. So very often we'll be more or less content with the game, but become pissed off when self-righteous wise guys go on a crusade to tell us we don't matter, our opinions are worthless, we're a vocal minority and all the other tripe that got me to never want to hear another thing from about a dozen people.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Thanks for all the responses.
For now, I am going to go with "some people just like to complain and argue while others think they know better than the developers" and leave it at that. |
But I'm not bitter, though. I'm getting what I want and the game is going pretty much exactly where I want it to go NOW, as opposed to before. That makes my staying with it through the worst of the excesses worth it. And if I angered a few people along the way, well, too bad.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
IME, they even resent people like me that want to figure out _why_ they think and feel they the things they do, be it the spicy food they ate giving them heartburn and thus making them cranky, or the way they have been taught to think and act by society.
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People don't like people trying to get inside their head. That's where they keep all their important things. Also, it seems like you're missing some basic things in your idea.
For instance, why would someone who is playing this game who comes across a change/thing they dislike complain and offer their viewpoint and suggestions instead of just waking away from it, or ultimately, the game itself?
Time, Money, Emotion and Social Investment in the game. I've spent almost £700 on this game over the past 6 years, at least. Many more hours than that as well. I have attachments to my characters and the friends I play with in game. This creates a strong emotional link that makes it a bit harder to cut and run from the game, as I've invested so much into it I'd not like to see all those things go to waste by leaving.
Then there are things we like, that have things we don't like that get in the way.
Example:
You like making costumes. The game adds a bunch new auras to it. You want to use them on your characters and play about with them for concepts and ideas.
Problem. They're locked behind level 50, multiple team content, or some of the options are locked behind two single team task forces that that award 1/10th of the required cost for each one, both, per day.
The only way to get access to something you like, is to do something you dislike, or have the process drawn out over 5-10 days for each one, or more likely, simply don't use them.
Another point to make is the posting environment. When every bit of criticism is seen as an 'attack on the game by sad people who love moaning who want it to fail' or 'people who just don't understand and are doing it wrong', that will provoke tempers, and you will see (As we can currently see now) people locking horns over this.
Now, me? There are things I dislike. But I'm hopeful for the future of CoH with their Hybrid model launch coming at the end of the year, and I hope it works for them.
But will I not say "Hey, I don't like this, maybe this would work better?" or "Here's an idea I'd really like to see implemented, and here's why?" or butt heads with other posters on points of disagreement?
Hell no.
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Not that you will see this unless quoted...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
But I'm not bitter, though. I'm getting what I want and the game is going pretty much exactly where I want it to go NOW, as opposed to before. That makes my staying with it through the worst of the excesses worth it. And if I angered a few people along the way, well, too bad.
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So it's OK for you to voice your opinion and anger a few people along the way, but not OK for me to do the same?
And, frankly, we must be using different dictionaries for some things as well. From my point of view, many of your posts have been full of bitter rage, even if NOW you are not bitter.
Unlike you, however, I am willing to read a dissenting opinion rather than ignore it. This, in and of itself, is an aspect of the human brain the fascinates me as well.
I post and speak bluntly. Most of the world thinks that I am rude because of that.
In your case in particular, I have stated that a minority opinion is not something that the CoH development team can afford to cater to, simply because their goal must be to make money and cater to the majority.
Sam, you simply seem to find my bluntness and lack of empathy for you to be insulting, when, in fact, I am simply trying to point out a different point of view.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
People don't like people trying to get inside their head. That's where they keep all their important things. Also, it seems like you're missing some basic things in your idea.
For instance, why would someone who is playing this game who comes across a change/thing they dislike complain and offer their viewpoint and suggestions instead of just waking away from it, or ultimately, the game itself? Time, Money, Emotion and Social Investment in the game. I've spent almost £700 on this game over the past 6 years, at least. Many more hours than that as well. I have attachments to my characters and the friends I play with in game. This creates a strong emotional link that makes it a bit harder to cut and run from the game, as I've invested so much into it I'd not like to see all those things go to waste by leaving. ... But will I not say "Hey, I don't like this, maybe this would work better?" or "Here's an idea I'd really like to see implemented, and here's why?" or butt heads with other posters on points of disagreement? Hell no. |
It's the level of bitterness and rage to which the emotional and financial attachments you describe cause people to post that I am curious about really.
I am not trying to imply the moment you don't like something that you should stop playing.
An aspect of this is that I am curious about is what makes someone think the bitter, rage-filled rants are going to sway the developers or other players into making changes, vs. adhering to actual facts and logic arguments.
As an example, I love PvP. However, I do not like PvP in this game. Therefore I simply ignore it. No rage-filled posts of hate toward the developers or death threats to specific individuals on the team, I just ignore it on the boards and in the game (for the most part). I accept that PvP is not a priority for the majority of the paying customers and therefore has little to no ROI for development dollars and leave it at that. I do not rage on about it for years at a time, nor do I hold any animosity toward the company or it's development staff for not wanting to cater to a minority that would have very risky ROI.
Finally, to give an example of my PoV on why people think feel what they do...
When I went to college out of high school (wow was that really 25 years ago?), I was naive enough to think that, finally, at college I would be surrounded by people who wanted to think and learn. I mean, why else would you go to college if not to think and learn? That's what it's for, right? Of course, what I found was the same type people that I had been in high school with a year earlier, the vast majority of whom were simply free from parental supervision so they could do even stupider things.
That was a learning experience for me, just not the one I had planned.
I am well aware that my outlook on the topic of gamers and their mental state is not the norm, I simply like to discuss it now and then.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
No, I used to watch Conan O'Brien, so "in the year two thousand" has come to mean "in the indeterminate future."