Bitter but still paying...


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad View Post
Negative reactions that continue and grow are not a necessary counterpoint to positive feelings and caring about something. You don't have to have one without the other, and neither one is inherent to the worth of the thing that inspires those feelings.
Negative reactions that continue to grow are an artefact of communal living, so to speak. The things that annoy me and that I complain about aren't first occurrences. As I've said before, I don't really complain about something until about the 20th time I run into it. Waking up to noisy neighbours in the middle of the night once? Eh, no big. Waking up to noisy neighbours a few times? Irritating, but still tolerable. Waking up to noisy neighbours every damn night, though? Yeah, I have to do something.

There's also the factor that I keep hoping that good stuff is just around the corner, that maybe some time soon things will be better, and they just aren't, time after time. I like "the game" just as much now as I did back in 2004, and I stick around for that still. But every time I get my hopes up that something cool is coming, BAM! Another Trial, a mile of patch notes about said trial, and a couple of HORRIBLE story arcs that makes me question whether the team still has a writer on board and whether they care about storytelling at all. Curse you, Roy Cooling!

Basically, I get angry because I like the game and feel... Or at least felt, that damage is being done to it. I have no illusions that I, personally, can change anything, and arguing with Internet tough guys is even LESS likely to change things. That's why I finally gave up on reason and stuck a bunch of people on ignore. Arguing with them is like wrestling a pig: win or lose, you end up dirty and the pig likes it anyway. Not incidentally, I've been a much happier man once I stopped reading certain people's posts. You may or may not have noticed me being a lot less angry of late, and not just over Titanic Weapons and the Proliferation announcements.

In short, I tend to get angry over ******** on the forums - a mistake I freely admit - far, FAR more so than over the actual game, which more or less can only disappoint me at worst. Putting said ******** on ignore has done wonders to my mental health, even if they keep replying to my posts.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post

I don't see, logically, how playing a game you hate can be healthy for you either. One of the most well know exchanges of "Doctor, it hurts when I raise arm" "Then don't raise your arm" comes to mind.

Thoughts?
If I told my doctor "It hurts when I raise my arm" and he tells me "then don't raise your arm." I am getting a new doctor... If it hurts when I breath, I don't expect the doctor to tell me to stop breathing.

This is a similar symptom with MMOs. I may complain about the MMO, but that doesn't mean I'd like to stop playing the MMO. Criticism is a very large part of how improvements are made to a game.


 

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All my friends except one left for good.

I am still having fun, though. So i ain't going nowhere. I went to the other games for a little while, and they don't keep me playing.

Being alt-centric helps.


Dawnslayer on Virtue.

 

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Originally Posted by Dawnslayer View Post
All my friends except one left for good.
Invite them back when COH: Freedom launches


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
But the Incarnate system has only been out for like 6 months
Subscriptions haven't gone up more than the game has lost in the last 2 years. There was a brief spike when Issue 18/Going Rogue was introduced.

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Invite them back when COH: Freedom launches
I have one friend that forgot to cancel his auto-renew before it was up and has subscribed for another year. He has absolutely no intention of ever returning to CoH. He won't be returning with CoH:Freedom. He has fixed his account to not renew again. There is nothing this game can do to bring him back.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Invite them back when COH: Freedom launches
LOL! I've already informed the 25+ former members of my SG about the upcoming changes and they are more scornful now than when they quit 2 years ago. Ain't gonna happen.


 

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Responding to the OP.

I have not been shy about expressing my extreme dislikes of Praetoria and The Incarnate System. However negatively I feel about those aspects, this is the only MMO I play because the game is so huge with more than enough content for me to completely ignore all the parts I dislike and still have lots to do.

It's worth the 14.95 per month in entertainment value to me because it is really fun to do the easy stuff and simply chill out and relax. I set my own pace and missions by playing strictly solo. No teaming irritations. No task forces. No trials. Nothing that will cause a rise in blood pressure or stress. For a couple hours each day, I can escape to my little hero world and the real world fades away.

Yet, some of the other posters are right, I do get upset when they install new elements to the game that I cannot participate in. The only reason I strongly object to the Incarnate System is that it is a Roadblock to my characters' advancement. All the other teaming parts of the game (TF, Trials, etc) I can skip yet continue to advance my characters' levels doing stuff solo.

The Incarnate System stops my preferred mode of advancement dead in its tracks - and I don't like that and don't think it's a fair way to treat a paying customer.

Yet, taking the bitter with the sweet, the sweet parts of the game are still sweet enough to keep me hanging around and enjoying them.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
But the Incarnate system has only been out for like 6 months
The subscriber curve of a MMO generally has a spike at release as everyone rushes to test it, then a rapid drop as the free month runs out and only a fraction renews. Then fewer and fewer renews, but the curve flattens out to a steady long and slow decline.

Sometimes new content can repeat that cycle, but the new spikes are rarely as high as the original spike, as it mostly attacts old players, not new ones.

There are a few games that do no not follow this cycle, and I would be surprised if CoH was one of them. On the contrary, when MMOGchart was still updated, CoH followed this pattern precisely.

Unless CoH has drastically changed subscriber behaviour since then, there should be a spike right after Going Rogue was released, followed by the usual half-life pattern drop-off. Being at 6 months after the release, we should be in the slow decline phase by now. From the very limited data of the dot colours of the EU servers on the server list, and the last months' dot colours on the NA servers as well, I'd say that it follows this pattern.


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

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Originally Posted by Fritzy View Post
LOL! I've already informed the 25+ former members of my SG about the upcoming changes and they are more scornful now than when they quit 2 years ago. Ain't gonna happen.
Tell them they can experience these awful changes for free, to confirm just how awful they are


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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I'm not sure how many returning players Freedom will attract. When subscribers leave a game, it's usually for a good reason, and everyone I've ever known that has left City of Heroes tends to be back from time to time for all of a day, never to be heard from again for another year. I have a friend of mine that played the game with me for, like, a day, before politely explaining to me that he liked WoW because it had raids and gear and loot and PvP. Strangely enough, talking to him about Inventions and Incarnates hasn't gotten more than a "meh" out of him, so I'm not sure what his deal is. When CoH goes freedom, I'll definitely bug him to try the game again, since he'll be a Premium subscriber, and if he likes it enough I might even get a few extras for him. However, I strongly suspect that I won't be able to keep him in-game for more than a day anyway.

Beyond that, I have another friend who managed to ask me when City of Heroes is "going free" twice in the span of a week, despite me telling him "not for a few months" both times, so he's clearly excited. I highly suspect he might be interested, though I also highly suspect he'd never pay money for the game. We live in a culture that has seen me mocked and ridiculed for paying for a game instead of pirating it, and it's doubtful that someone with his budget and beliefs on software property laws will start paying for an MMO. Knowing him, I'm also not sure how long he'll stick with the game before he gets bored. He's not exactly the patient type, but I'll do what I can to keep him around if and when he tries the game.

Contrary to popular belief, I do actually enjoy playing with my friends when I can achieve that, it's just that I don't know anyone in my area who plays the game and most of the friends I've made in-game either are in radically different time zones, have left the game or otherwise log in too infrequently and play on different servers from me.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Fritzy View Post
The Incarnate System stops my preferred mode of advancement dead in its tracks - and I don't like that and don't think it's a fair way to treat a paying customer.
Uhm, how so?
The Incarnate system is an alternate system of advancement where you unlock additional abilities by earning Incarnate XP and Components. It has no effect whatsoever on your preferred method of advancement. Like all the other things you don't like about CoH you can safely ignore it and continue playing whatever else you prefer. Nothing at all was removed to make room for the Incarnate system. You can still run TFs and Trials to earn merits and get recipe drops, or even run the STF and LRSF for SHOs, so all your options are still there.

If you're referring to some sort of raising of the normal level cap the Devs have repeatedly stated over the years that that will not ever happen for design reasons and that any system of progressing a character at level 50 would involve other methods. Initially that was HOs, then the invention system was added, and now the incarnate system.


Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Uhm, how so?
The Incarnate system is an alternate system of advancement where you unlock additional abilities by earning Incarnate XP and Components. It has no effect whatsoever on your preferred method of advancement.
I wouldn't say "alternate". I'd rather say "next". When you're reached the end of the first (levels) you start on the second (incarnates).

And I can't speak for Fritzy, but I have a feeling that you're talking two different kinds of methods. You speak of ordinary XP vs IXP and Components; I think Fritzy is speaking doing missions, task forces, whatever vs grinding raids.


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty View Post
I wouldn't say "alternate". I'd rather say "next". When you're reached the end of the first (levels) you start on the second (incarnates).
That's where I stand, myself. The Incarnate system mixes together two things that I don't necessarily see as inherently related - raids and post-50 progression. I don't see why we can't have both of these things in the game without making them always go together in a pair with each other and never with anything else. I don't see, for instance, why we can't have non-Incarnate raids that award, say, special rare recipes or access to preferrential stores or some such. I also don't see why we can't, for example, have Incarnate progression through things other than raids.

I'm done worrying about that, though. For the moment, the developers are pedalling raids. When they're done with that, we'll see. Long as I have my Titanic Weapons and proliferated powersets and power customization, I'm not all that worried. At least now I know what I'm waiting for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
For the moment, the developers are pedalling raids. When they're done with that, we'll see.
There's no end to the Trials - the devs have already said they've conceptualized far more Trials than they'll ever be able to add to the game, with the intention of adding one Trial in almost each new Issue, as well as these in between mini-Issues we're currently getting.
The Trials are like the Force - they'll be with us, always


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
There's no end to the Trials - the devs have already said they've conceptualized far more Trials than they'll ever be able to add to the game, with the intention of adding one Trial in almost each new Issue, as well as these in between mini-Issues we're currently getting.
The Trials are like the Force - they'll be with us, always
As long as they keep adding other stuff, too - like new power sets, more customization, updated/new zones, new story arcs - that's fine with me.

Really, really, really want that Smiley Blast set!

- Owie! (rapid fire single target blast, stings a little)
- Oof! (intrepid damage, def debuff)
- Durr! (vibrant damage single target blast, chance for stun)
- Gah! (offset damage, stun)
- Woa! (cone attack, way cool damage)
- Poke in the Eye! (long range snipe attack, ostentatious damage, tohit debuff)
- Slap in the Face! (PBAOE - spin and slap everyone in range with wet smiley, embarrassing damage)
- Lol, wut? (AoE confuse)
- Knock knock! Who's there? Ka! 'Ka' who? Ka-BOOM! (PBAOE, great googley moogley damage)


 

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Originally Posted by Flarstux View Post
As long as they keep adding other stuff, too - like new power sets, more customization, updated/new zones, new story arcs - that's fine with me.
You're in luck - that's exactly what they're doing


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Flarstux View Post
As long as they keep adding other stuff, too - like new power sets, more customization, updated/new zones, new story arcs - that's fine with me.
Don't forget the viable non-trial Incarnate advancement path as well.

The current method of non-trial Incarnate advancement is not a viable option.


There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't see, for instance, why we can't have non-Incarnate raids that award, say, special rare recipes or access to preferrential stores or some such. I also don't see why we can't, for example, have Incarnate progression through things other than raids.
I'm slightly confused here. One of your complaints about the Incarnate system is that the progression is locked away behind raids. Would it really be any better if other things (special recipes, special stores etc.) were locked behind raids instead? We've already seen numerous complaints about the current crop of costume items being locked behind the raids, I think the fact is having anything locked behind the raids means that someone will complain.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I'm slightly confused here. One of your complaints about the Incarnate system is that the progression is locked away behind raids. Would it really be any better if other things (special recipes, special stores etc.) were locked behind raids instead? We've already seen numerous complaints about the current crop of costume items being locked behind the raids, I think the fact is having anything locked behind the raids means that someone will complain.
Well, I think it'd be a case of there being more diversity amongst the content.

To be fair though, with regards to raids, we have a raid that awards special currency, we have a raid that awards special enhancements, and we have a raid that awards a temporary buff. Until recently, we had more raids that gave stuff besides incarnate rewards than ones that gave incarnate rewards .

I see more of the problem being the game tries to distance itself from direct itemization, preferring instead reward pools amongst different grades of content.


Let's Dance!

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
There's no end to the Trials - the devs have already said they've conceptualized far more Trials than they'll ever be able to add to the game
He said "raid" and you changed the word to "trials". Those are different things.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I'm slightly confused here. One of your complaints about the Incarnate system is that the progression is locked away behind raids. Would it really be any better if other things (special recipes, special stores etc.) were locked behind raids instead? We've already seen numerous complaints about the current crop of costume items being locked behind the raids, I think the fact is having anything locked behind the raids means that someone will complain.
First things first - recipes are gameplay rewards. They are NOT cosmetic rewards. I do not want to see cosmetic rewards locked behind raids. Ever. That doesn't mean I don't want OTHER gameplay rewards, especially such rewards that are available through other venues, added to the raid reward pool.

Right now, raids reward one thing and one thing only - Incarnate progress. I don't see why we can't use their rewards for other things. I also don't see why we can't get their rewards from other tasks. Ideally, I'd like to give a range of options for gameplay and a range of rewards such that people can do the tasks they want to do AND get the rewards they want to get at the same time. To each his own, you know?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
There's no end to the Trials - the devs have already said they've conceptualized far more Trials than they'll ever be able to add to the game, with the intention of adding one Trial in almost each new Issue, as well as these in between mini-Issues we're currently getting.
The Trials are like the Force - they'll be with us, always
I don't mind them being with us always. I do mind that in a year, with three issues a year and three half-issues, we'll have a whopping total of 9 trials available for post-50 progress.

Now, remind me again, how many missions could be used for pre-50 progress?

The point is NOT that the devs should make as many trials as there is missions now. The point is that unless they somehow connect the incarnate progression to the regular content, the incarnate content will not only always be with us, it will also always be lacking.


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
I don't understand it.

I have seen so many posts over the years from (often the same) bitter, unhappy, angst-ridden players.
...snip...
Thoughts?
I believe you are reading the wrong emotion into such posts. If someone comes to these boards and is passionate about the game but dislikes a particular aspect or change, that does not mean they are bitter, unhappy or angst-ridden.

It means no more than they are doing the sensible and healthy thing in letting off steam, in the channel provided for them by the Developers, to do just that. Its all feedback you know.

Now pray the devs never change that one thing that you love best!


This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

 

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I won't presume to speak for others but here's my take on it, as someone who may be perceived as a complainer by some in the community.

First off, I have played the game for over five years so that tells you something about how I feel about the game - but I often find myself at odds with certain elements of the game that the Devs can implement. That can be stories and the overall direction of the game - such as the Incarnate storyline. (Not to be confused with end-game content - but simply the fact that I have to be incarnate.)

Similarly there's other elements I dislike... but ultimately the things I dislike are far outweighed by the positives. So I continue to sub - although I have unsubbed for times when I felt that a section of the community that I care about was totally ignored. But once I learned those concerns were being seriously addressed, I subbed straight back.

Finally - and this is the most important aspect of this I feel - I am a paying customer. As a subscriber and buyer of Paragon product if I just sat back and let the Devs do stuff I really really dislike without voicing my opinion then there's two things going on: They don't understand what I like (and therefore have the opportunity to make more stuff I like and thus take more money off me) and then I stop enjoying the game.

But if I just post a small "I'm a bit meh about X" in a thread of 76,583 posts that won't get noticed. If I start a thread saying "I really hate XYZ" then at least there's a chance that somebody might notice it - whether they choose to do something about it is up to them. So far I'm still playing so it can't be all bad.



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

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I think we've got some great responses to the OP.

For me I love the game. Still, after 6 years.

Does that mean I won't complain about certain things that are BAD or terrible repeatedly and vehemently. No.

As I've said before when I stop posting criticisms at all, is when you can expect I've already unsubbed. If you aren't getting criticisms from posters who are unhappy it means:

a) they are happy with some things happening.

b) they no longer care. That's the time you need to watch out for them unsubbing.

I really don't know what the OP is talking about. I don't find any of the posters from the last year since I18 to be bitter, angst ridden or whatever silly word you want to call them.

They don't hate the game. They are just giving feedback in the way you OP also do: bluntly.

If they hated the game you wouldn't see their posts. They would just unsub.


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