Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ah, the "suck it up" post. Nice.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
TLDR: If you want Incarnate powers, you gona have to do trials for it.
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Almost every single "suck it up" post gets proved wrong "eventually." Its just a matter of "when?" And since the Devs have already stated they are planning solo Incarnate paths, this one might happen a lot sooner than most.
Plus I did this mission in Oro(spelling?) and I saw the future where my character is ridiculously overpowered, and since I won't be doing the trials* that PROVES we get a solo path
* Thats a lie. I try and do everything at least once.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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The devs are looking at it, which means there's two big question marks: A) It's not certain anything will come of it, they've looked at tons of stuff that proved to be too hard/time consuming/difficult to balance to make it worth doin. B) The devs concept of a "meaningful solo path". Which I suspect differs significantly from the hermits' conception.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Seeing as how the devs have already said they are looking into it, I sincerely doubt you're correct.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Yes typo, corrected.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
I'm assuming the 16=15 is a typo, and 16=16 is what you meant.
And also it sorta confuses me. You run 16 accounts? or am I missing something here? |
16 people, any 16 people
Example: 16 people want to unlock and slot Judgement:
Together they do 6 trials spending 30 mins forming and 1hr doing each trial (The numbers here don't matter)
End result is 16 instances of Judgement gained for 144 man/hours of effort.
16 unrelated players spend 1hr30mins doing solo incarnate content 6 times.
End result is 16 instances of Judgement gained for 144 man/hours of effort.
Now, as I've said, I think the devs want to incentivize teaming. That fine but for a solo player to be expected to put in between 50 and 100 time the effort of a single player why happens to team is just silly. I think x4 is a more sane punishment for the solo player.
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While what you say is technically true (except the "big" part), in this case "we are looking into it" has come a damn sight earlier than it has most other similar topics.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The devs are looking at it, which means there's two big question marks: A) It's not certain anything will come of it, they've looked at tons of stuff that proved to be too hard/time consuming/difficult to balance to make it worth doin. B) The devs concept of a "meaningful solo path". Which I suspect differs significantly from the hermits' conception.
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Plus the only difficulty with producing solo Incarnate content is this: How to make it so that the solo content doesn't empty the trials.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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The *easiest* way would probably be attaching rewards to an already existing system. (preferably one that's already time-locked) |
Originally Posted by Jagged
Plus the only difficulty with producing solo Incarnate content is this: How to make it so that the solo content doesn't empty the trials.
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Unless they do something with the Signature Arcs (which they might, actually, now that I think about it) there's probably not going to be much *new* solo content. They *might* attach it to already existing content in some form, though. ("Incarnate Mode" is something that's been thrown around)
But that still leaves the question of what is considered "reasonable" play-time to achieve something. And I don't think the hermits have the same conception as the devs there.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
I've done 30 or more trials, I'm hardly a "hermit" (what an inaccurate and poor insult to aim at people who just want options).
I made the Signature Arc suggestion in the Suggestions Forums. I hope people in this thread will check it out and comment. This is content already in the pipeline that I think could be adapted to provide myself and others with reasonable alternatives to Incarnate progression without stepping on the toes of the trials.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=264674
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A lot of good points here. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
The *easiest* way would probably be attaching rewards to an already existing system. (preferably one that's already time-locked)
Unless they do something with the Signature Arcs (which they might, actually, now that I think about it) there's probably not going to be much *new* solo content. They *might* attach it to already existing content in some form, though. ("Incarnate Mode" is something that's been thrown around) But that still leaves the question of what is considered "reasonable" play-time to achieve something. And I don't think the hermits have the same conception as the devs there. |
Anywhere else in the game, a solo progression will typically take longer than progression with a team. And a team's progression will likely take longer than in a full league. So it is reasonable to assume that any incarnate progression based around small team content (i.e. 8 or less) will take longer than the league content. That's just the game's pattern, and though I want a progression option that does not require me to wait for a full league (or anyone for that matter) to start up, to want an equal time scale is unreasonable based on the rest of the game.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
*Snipped for brevity.
That's just the game's pattern, and though I want a progression option that does not require me to wait for a full league (or anyone for that matter) to start up, to want an equal time scale is unreasonable based on the rest of the game. |
Not only would it be unreasonable, it would be boring as well. I'd actually prefer if it took a bit longer to fully kit out than running leagues. It would give me something to push for, to strive for. Without the added hassle of hurry up and wait syndrome and mass of confusion that is the iTrials.
Something I can knock away chunks at on my own time. At my leisure (since that's what I'm looking for when I log in, leisure time activity.)
So I know that even if I only have 20 to 30 minutes I can play, that I can still log in, knock out a few missions and accomplish 'something'. Even if that something is only a fraction of what a 30 minute trial could earn me. The A-Merits have this effect on me. I wouldn't bother to even log in, since I don't have much time but... but I only need to fill 2 more bubbles to get another morality mission.
A middle ground is needed. Drastically improved over the year+ solo path we currently have while still being slow enough to encourage constant iTrials being run. Honestly, after 7 years I have a great deal of faith that our Dev's can pull it off!
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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So what you're basically saying is you made this thread not with the intent of having a reasonable discussion wherein both sides come to an agreement. But with the desire to shut up the people who disagree with you. Now that they won't shut up. and won't agree with you(though most of the people here have agreed on the issue of "If the auras were flashier/more incarnatey, they'd be fine with the unlocks" and some other things, but let's continue with this thing you have in your head) you're stomping off in a huff with a 'Ya'll just shut up, that's the way it IS". Is that accurate?
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Originally Posted by Pacur
That's it. I'm done. I cant take this anymore. I stated the reasons plainly, clearly, and concisely. I agreed that some things DO need to change about what things are available exclusively through E-Merits, and should be moved to Astrals, regular merits, or whatever.
Yet on these boards I see people metaphorically beating this issue to death that they want to solo incarnates at the same rate as groups do. Well, THAT IS JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! TLDR: If you want Incarnate powers, you gona have to do trials for it. |
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
Y'know, I think the funniest part of this is that this is probably the least grindy of any MMO I've ever played but people are still moaning about it. This game is EASY. Basically those very rare items had such a tiny chance of dropping, you'd have a better chance at spitting into a windstorm and hoping to hit a fly on a mountain a mile away. Before anyone says "WELL THIS ISN'T X GAME", it's still an MMO, the drop rates are still reasonable. The only issue with grindiness at all is lack of options of what to currently grind. Three options, some more to come. How about instead of just constantly crying foul you come up with ideas and lay them out for the devs. The devs in this game are more community oriented than ANY I have ever seen.
The I don't want to team to earn my stuff is probably at best a joke to me, a bad one at that, you're playing an a massive multiplayer online game. I won't break out the dictionary to tell you what multiplayer means. You want the devs to cater to people who refuse to team on a multiplayer game? In almost any other community you'd be laughed out and told to qq.
In short, you're being unreasonable, demanding and childish. Hope to see you in game. 
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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Allow me;|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
The I don't want to team to earn my stuff is probably at best a joke to me, a bad one at that, you're playing an a massive multiplayer online game. I won't break out the dictionary to tell you what multiplayer means. You want the devs to cater to people who refuse to team on a multiplayer game? In almost any other community you'd be laughed out and told to qq.
In short, you're being unreasonable, demanding and childish. Hope to see you in game. |
MMO defined
and here
Multiplayer
Now show me the part of the definition that says you are forced to team in order to be playing an MMO. Oh wait, you can't because it's a fallacy.
The term Multiplayer simply refers to the environment we share. It's a multi-player environment. At no point should this be inferred to mean players playing together at all times. If that was the case then you wouldn't have PvP unless it was all squad based. It's fine for you to feel the way you do, just don't try to justify that stance with such a laughable statement as MMO = Teaming.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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Let me Google that for you.|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
I won't break out the dictionary to tell you what multiplayer means.
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mul·ti·play·er
adjective /ˈməltiˌplāər/ /ˈməltī-/
Denoting a computer game designed for or involving several players
Multiplayer means more then one person is playing. It does not mean playing together though.
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Maybe the fact we're here and not in those other, more grind-intensive MMOs is part of the answer you're not seeing?
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Y'know, I think the funniest part of this is that this is probably the least grindy of any MMO I've ever played but people are still moaning about it.
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Way ahead of you.|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
How about instead of just constantly crying foul you come up with ideas and lay them out for the devs.
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For instance, add an Incarnate difficulty to regular content, that makes things insanely hard (above the +4/8 player that we have today as top) and enables Incarnate drops.
Or add an Incarnate settings to task/strike forces, that imposes some limitations akin to MO setting, increases difficulty, and enables Incarnate drops.
Those, and similar suggestions, have been posted several times already.
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
You want the devs to cater to people who refuse to team on a multiplayer game?
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I don't think that the people that ask for a solo path actually mean that they want an exclusively solo path. There are a few faction choice missions in Going Rogue that have to be soloed, but the rest is in fact regular content that can be soloed, but is intended to be teamed, and I think that it's what they want.
If you compare to just about any other MMO, you will find something peculiar: their quest system is single-player oriented. You go to your contact, you get your missions (usually a whole bunch of "get me 12 rat tails", "gather 6 monkey poo" and "kill 15 dire bunnies"), and then you're on your own. You can often share those missions with team mates, provided that they would be eligible to the same quest (i.e. have progressed that far into the quest chain).
But that's it. Usually, the quest system in MMOs are single-player quest systems with a share button that mostly is useless, with instanced raids being the main exception. It's not often you can see other players' quests, and there is rarely a system that tells you that we should focus on player X's quest and shows you his objectives even if you don't have those quests. Even if players do their quests in the same world, and even if they are teamed, they aren't really playing as a team. They are more often playing as a group of solo players that have their own chat channel.
This game plays instanced missions almost exclusively. All missions are seen to all players, and the leader can select one of them to focus on and direct the players to it. We already have a lot better team support without raids or trials than most other games have with. In fact, the team/quest system in this game is the staple to which every other superhero MMO will be compared to, and the two others were never a match!
That means that if there were to be Incarnate content that plays as regular content instead of Trials, it will already be way more team-oriented than almost all content in almost all other MMOs. With the right build, it may also be soloable.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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"Absurd" is right.|
Originally Posted by Necrotron
I don't like how expensive the Ascension Armor is, but I accept that it's very much an Incarnate reward. On principle, tying costumes to end-game rewards of that magnitude is not something I am a fan of, but the costumes have been designed to be Incarnate-related from the start.
Now, having said all that, gating the auras and emotes behind Astral merits is absurd. In my "take it as it comes" pace, I cannot spare so many merits on things so trivial, and yet they are genuinely good costume pieces that I may want. I spend as much time inside the tailor as the next man, but I won't spend ten Astrals on any generic aura, costume piece or emote. |
I have a thought that all the Freedom Points (or whatever they are) we start accumulating now will build up to a level that will let us purchase these when the store comes out with F2P. That, however, does little to remediate my disappointment.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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"This isn't X game" is still a perfectly valid argument. I got into CoX entirely because it was like it was, not because it was like any other games. I had a friend try to hook me on PSO...and there's a notable reason I didn't play that for any notable amount of time. The advantage with that game is that it is an entertaining game that also happens to be an online game. Of course, of late, it's become a less entertaining game, in an attempt to emulate all those other games I didn't like. |
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Y'know, I think the funniest part of this is that this is probably the least grindy of any MMO I've ever played but people are still moaning about it. This game is EASY. Go play Phantasy Star Online and get a character to level 200 and get a Lavi's Blade or was it Cannon? I forget which is more rare. Basically those very rare items had such a tiny chance of dropping, you'd have a better chance at spitting into a windstorm and hoping to hit a fly on a mountain a mile away. Before anyone says "WELL THIS ISN'T X GAME", it's still an MMO, the drop rates are still reasonable. The only issue with grindiness at all is lack of options of what to currently grind. Three options, some more to come.
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| How about instead of just constantly crying foul you come up with ideas and lay them out for the devs. The devs in this game are more community oriented than ANY I have ever seen. |
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| The I don't want to team to earn my stuff is probably at best a joke to me, a bad one at that, you're playing an a massive multiplayer online game. I won't break out the dictionary to tell you what multiplayer means. You want the devs to cater to people who refuse to team on a multiplayer game? In almost any other community you'd be laughed out and told to qq. |
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
Y'know, I think the funniest part of this is that this is probably the least grindy of any MMO I've ever played but people are still moaning about it. This game is EASY. Go play Phantasy Star Online and get a character to level 200 and get a Lavi's Blade or was it Cannon? I forget which is more rare. Basically those very rare items had such a tiny chance of dropping, you'd have a better chance at spitting into a windstorm and hoping to hit a fly on a mountain a mile away. Before anyone says "WELL THIS ISN'T X GAME", it's still an MMO, the drop rates are still reasonable. The only issue with grindiness at all is lack of options of what to currently grind. Three options, some more to come. How about instead of just constantly crying foul you come up with ideas and lay them out for the devs. The devs in this game are more community oriented than ANY I have ever seen.
The I don't want to team to earn my stuff is probably at best a joke to me, a bad one at that, you're playing an a massive multiplayer online game. I won't break out the dictionary to tell you what multiplayer means. You want the devs to cater to people who refuse to team on a multiplayer game? In almost any other community you'd be laughed out and told to qq. In short, you're being unreasonable, demanding and childish. Hope to see you in game. |
So your logic is what? This game sucks less than another game, so we have more room to introduce sucky features and get away with it?
PS never, ever break out a dictionary in an internet debate, unless the word you're looking up is "concede."
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If COH is a multiplayer game, and that's what everyone has been doing and should expect to be doing for high-level advancement from now on - and anyone asking for something non-multiplayer to do is being unreasonable and childish (unreasonable after playing a teaming-optional game for the better part of seven years) - why is one of the repeated concerns voiced about including a solo-friendly progression path that the number of people who would run the multiplayer Incarnate options would drop-off significantly if the playerbase was given the option to do something more soloable?
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
The I don't want to team to earn my stuff is probably at best a joke to me, a bad one at that, you're playing an a massive multiplayer online game. I won't break out the dictionary to tell you what multiplayer means. You want the devs to cater to people who refuse to team on a multiplayer game? In almost any other community you'd be laughed out and told to qq.
In short, you're being unreasonable, demanding and childish. Hope to see you in game. |
On Liberty:
Aardwolf - level 50 claws/invulnerability scrapper
Anchor - level 50 level gravity/forcefield controller
Dr. Dusk - level 50 mercenaries/dark miasma mastermind
Because the raiders need their stupidly high league size reqs padded with players who'd rather be soloing or small-teaming but have to trial because they want their Incarnate stuff.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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If the devs are forcing people to 'raid' because if there was an alternative, not enough people would be 'raiding' then some where along the line they've failed at key game play design rules.
I would like the carrot, I do not like the stick. Don't like it enough that I won't be resubbing, doubtful that I'll even play freemium.
Even the current market leader offers none raid methods of advancement. Don't want to 20 man raid? Then you can grind hard mode versions of previous content for tokens to buy 'similar' levels of progression as the raids offer. Don't like that? Then how about you do some solo daily quests and raise faction standings and get advancement that way?
But do the dev's offer alternative methods of advancement? Do they buggery. Instead they say they'll 'look into it', in a similar way that PVP, the AE and bases will be 'looked' into.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Erm, except it's only a carot. You are seeing that other people get carots and assuming you are getting beat with a stick, but ok |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
If the devs are forcing people to 'raid' because if there was an alternative, not enough people would be 'raiding' then some where along the line they've failed at key game play design rules.
I would like the carrot, I do not like the stick. Don't like it enough that I won't be resubbing, doubtful that I'll even play freemium. Even the current market leader offers none raid methods of advancement. Don't want to 20 man raid? Then you can grind hard mode versions of previous content for tokens to buy 'similar' levels of progression as the raids offer. Don't like that? Then how about you do some solo daily quests and raise faction standings and get advancement that way? But do the dev's offer alternative methods of advancement? Do they buggery. Instead they say they'll 'look into it', in a similar way that PVP, the AE and bases will be 'looked' into. |
.Market Leader assumption is awkward, and different. There's no way usually to get specific drops from previous 'tier' content raids through the heroic tokens. Some items may get added, typically you'll find the class armor sets added. But specific items tend to be missing. And the reputation rewards are a different beast entirely anyway since those rewards are the same as the rewards you get as drops from the heroic runs [also, should be noted, that you'll advance at a rate that's significantly faster with that reputation grind doing those heroic runs anyway].
Personally, I see IOs filling a similar 'gearing' up aspect as the heroic drops, but I can see folks seeing them as being different due to the time-frame difference.
Let's Dance!
The carrot and stick example is such. The carrot is character progression. The stick is the trials, I do not find them enjoyable. Indeed I find them a tedious trial to go through. If I want the carrot, I've got to put up with being hit by the stick.
On the market leader, it tends to be that when a new tier of raids is added, they also add a new tier of token purchasable armour too, so that the players who want to switch into raiding can do so without having to start from the begining.
This would be the equivelent of say allowing people to solo/normal sized team, content enough to get say a Tier 2 or3 in each incarnate slot, allowing them should they choose to, start 'raiding' for the heighest tier without starting from the ground up.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
No, you're misunderstanding what carrot and stick means
The carrot is the reward to get you to run the content. There's no stick involved. (a stick would mean actively penaizing you somehow, beyond not getting the carrot, for not doing the trial)
Say, you get your influence earnings cut in half for every day until you do a trial. That would be a stick. Not giving you a carrot is not a stick.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
I had a thought.
What if the solo path was just another story arc with restriction?
This story arc and solo path would have the following restrictions:
1. Each mission completion is a chance for common or uncommon component.
2. Each mission completion will reward a chance for Astral merit.
3. Certain mission objectives will reward a chance for Astral merit.
4. Each arc completion is a chance for a rare component.
5. Each arc completion will reward 1 empyrean merit
6. The mission arc can only be completed once every 20 hours.
7. Mobs have a chance to drop threads instead of shards.
8. Mobs have a base difficulty of level 52.
9. Lastly, the solo path would not reward Very Rare components. You would be required to use conversions or run the trials for VR/T4.
I mentioned this in that other thread, but I have only done like 5 raids. Just not my cup of tea. Would I like the powers and now the costumes, emotes, and auras...well, yes. But I would rather be doing something I think is fun, then not, so I don't do the trials. I don't do the LGTF for the mission that everyone wants to fail. Just something I can skip. I really don't understand why people get bent out of shape over it, cause eventually the Devs will get something where I can get incarnate goodies. Maybe, and if not, I can live with that. I didn't get my first LOTG: Recharge until hero/villian merits came out.
Phenomenal Cosmic Power is all well and good, but the living space sucks...
Oh, and Trapdoor...I still don't understand why people have trouble with him...
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.