Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass


Ad Astra

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
This game was not like this before when it came to rewards and is still running 6 years later.

Why change to this now?
Why not?

There is nothing wrong with change, even if some players don't like it because others will.


"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
Why not?

There is nothing wrong with change, even if some players don't like it because others will.
Sounds like the Star Wars Galaxies argument. That went well.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
Why not?

There is nothing wrong with change, even if some players don't like it because others will.
Clearly there is a problem with change, hence this thread. Some peolpe played pre Itrials CoX because it didnt require you to do raid sized content to get at thing. This has now changed, what are these folk now meant to do ? given that they havent changed.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist View Post
Clearly there is a problem with change, hence this thread. Some peolpe played pre Itrials CoX because it didnt require you to do raid sized content to get at thing. This has now changed, what are these folk now meant to do ? given that they havent changed.
Adapt or don't play online games...they tend to change over time.


Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
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Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacur View Post
Why is it not viable? You still get the same stuff, it just takes longer.
Yep. It takes about a year just to convert the necessary shards to threads, and that's provided you already have them. Compared to the few weeks it takes to unlock the similar amount of stuff using the trials, that would be at least 10x slower, probably more like 20x. And we haven't mentioned the stuff that you need Empyrean Merits for, that you simply can't get.

Hence, the other path is at least on an order of magnitude slower, and you can't get the same stuff from it. I think it's reasonable to say that it's not viable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacur View Post
You can't paint a house at the same speed solo as a group of people painting the same house at the same time.
Well, we're not talking a house. We're talking a group of 16 people painting 16 houses (remember: they're getting their unlocks as well, not just one of the house owners, sorry, players) in the same time it takes one person to paint his garage door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacur View Post
TLDR: If you want Incarnate powers, you gona have to do trials for it.
I.e. the "go to bed without dinner" argument.

It still doesn't convince me.


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty View Post
It still doesn't convince me.
It does not have to convince you.

Accept reality, or don't, your choice.


"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45

 

Posted

she rejects your reality and supplements her own!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
I was wondering if any of the forumites who support casual progression would be opposed if Mender Ramiel's arc (including the Trapdoor fight) was used as reference for the bare minimum difficulty for casual incarnate progress.
I'd expect nothing less, to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
Accept reality, or don't, your choice.
To be fair, you can both accept reality, and vent about it on the forums, really.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
To be fair, you can both accept reality, and vent about it on the forums, really.
I accepted the reality that people will complain about anything and that most of them are terrified of change a long time ago.


"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
I accepted the reality that people will complain about anything and that most of them are terrified of change a long time ago.

Yep and those PVP changes are on the verge of working out any second now.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
I think this is the problem : too many try to find hidden purposes in simple complaints.

I can speak only for myself, but when I say:

- "I don't like that the final fight of this trial relies on healing so much", I am NOT saying "this trial is too hard" NOR "I want this trial to be easy".

"I don't like that the final fight of this trial relies on healing so much" means "I don't like that the final fight of this trial relies on healing so much".

- "I would rather see it work this way", I am NOT saying "the devs should change it to be this way" NOR "the game should be designed around what I want".

"I would rather see it work this way" means "I would rather see it work this way".

- "This mechanic makes very specific powersets much, much more useful than others", I am NOT saying "you have to have these specific powersets to succeed" NOR "no other powerset can do the task".

"This mechanic makes very specific powersets much, much more useful than others" means "this mechanic makes very specific powersets much, much more useful than others"

Finally, giving negative feedback on a specific mechanic doesn't mean one feels forced to do the trial, nor that they'll run it again.

If you stop assuming everyone who disagrees with you has some kind of hidden agenda, who knows, you might just find these complaints can make sense from a different perspective ; and if you still really can't see any value in that and keep getting frustrated, may I remind you that nobody is forcing you to read these forum posts? You won't even get a shiny costume or a lore pet for doing so.

I know *I* am not running Keyes twenty times a day.
I took tier 4 Rebirth just for Keyes. Get a few of those among the team, and healing will go much better.


Rene Descartes orders a glass of wine and drinks it. The bartender says, "Would you like another?" Descartes replies, "I think not." And he disappears.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetpack View Post
Sounds like the Star Wars Galaxies argument. That went well.
Star Wars Galaxies? What's that?

Eco.


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The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
Star Wars Galaxies? What's that?
A sad tale of how to lose on the order of nine out of ten subscribers by radically changing a game


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad View Post
You wait for the next round of non trial stuff. Just like people who like big group raids/trials had to wait for years for something they liked.

Acting like everything from now on forever and ever is gonna be related to this feature and locked behind a wall you're unwilling to climb is shortsighted at best, moronic at worst.
BINGO!

What a lot of people complaining about the trials and lack of other content are not thinking about is the big pictures. IE what is going on in the overall game development.

Hmm, lets see, we have a new system that has no extra material to play. Well then it needs fleshed out. So that means that a number of incarnate trials are planned and added to give multiple things to do with well being an incarnate. [Note the devs have stated that they have plans for solo incarnate stuff but that it will take time.]

At the same time this is happening and Incarnates go live the devs are working in the background on converting to the hybrid F2P model for issue 21. They have indicated that there will be a bunch of low level changes to accommodate an influx of new players. So the mission developers have been focused on fixing missions and adding material for that. Not on adding new general missions/arc from I19 - I20.

What does that leave the devs releasing a lot of during that time? Hmm, lets see, oh I know Incarnate Trials. ::sheesh:: It is amazing how people can react to things with only a tiny narrow focus and complain about it with no idea of the bigger picture.

So yes I would expect that with I21 and on we will see more non trial stuff appearing. Because they won't be diverted with building COH:Freedom in the background. That wasn't a small simple 5 minute project and I don't know why people imagine that it is that easy to do. You can't just declare a game F2P and go, there are massive amounts of work to convert systems to a hybrid model.


But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
This game was not like this before when it came to rewards and is still running 6 years later.

Why change to this now?
Yes it was. You just choose to ignore those rewards.


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
I'd rather not wait years for a workable solo incarnate path, thanks.
I rather hope not. I would love so see solo access opening up soonish. Personally I'm not a fan of doing trials and have been suffering through them because I'm impatient and would like the new incarnate stuff. But I'm not a huge fan of playing them.

I'm not certain if the solo material would happen in I21 simply because of the conversion to Freedom. I would hope that if we don't see anything by then then I22 would have solo Incarnate material. Personally I would be thrilled if I21 had solo Incarnate stuff that could earn threads/and both types of merits. But we will see.


But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
We asked for Endgame, not necessarily trials. There's a difference.
Actually it's not.

Endgame in every single other game out there consists of either endless farming or grinding 1 or 2 raids over and over and over until the next 5 - 10 levels get released then you rush up to the new farms and raids and repeat.

As far as I can tell that is all that any game has for endgame.

What are you expecting an endgame to be that is different?


But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

Posted

I sincerely doubt you're going to get solo incarnate content in the way you want it.

I *do* think you're going to get some kind of small team oriented stuff that might be soloable with a perfect build, though.


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkonne View Post
I've certainly spent a lot of time waiting for trials on your server, Pacur; I've even waited along with you while some of your leagues filled up. I'd have to say the time spent waiting for trials is a large percentage of the entire time I've devoted to trials.

It wouldn't bother me as much if we could actually do things while waiting, but unfortunately we can't.

-D
Yes this. I have done a few ITrials and I'm pretty certain that I spent at least 2 times as long standing around and waiting for the trials to start as I did actually running trials. And as noted there is nothing you can do while waiting except sit there bored.


But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

Posted

I think it is also important to remember that while the trials were being released not only where the Dev's working on Freedom but also building a new zone. That's a huge amount of work to do.
I'm not saying that players shouldn't be asking for solo and small team incarnate content I think we should. I am saying moderating the tone with new info in mind would be a welcome change. At this point people seem to be more invested in fighting with each other, this argument has been ongoing for months and some posters seem invested in arguing with other posters beyond the subject at hand, than in critique of the system. It doesn't cost us anything to respectfully disagree or consider the other person's point of view. It looks like posters are perusing other posts and pulling quotes out of context in order to bait them, make absurdly illogical statements based on unfalsifiable assumptions, and ignore any reasonable and moderate statements looking for the hot buttons.
Personally I want to see small team and a solo mission leading to the trials and placing the onus of explaining the narrative on these missions. It is too chaotic and visually overwhelming to follow a big chunk of the story while doing a trial. We need some lead up to the final battle with the big AV which is what these trials are missing. I'd also like to see having the trial have to split into different instanced objectives similar to the way big comic book super teams split up before the big showdown. Each side instance leading to the final battle could work better for different classes to give everyone something to do not needing a tank or blaster but more buff/debuff is useful here, melee damage is needed in this objective, ranged is more help in this instance etc.. You could also have a very large league with fewer latency issues if we had separate objectives in different instances to complete.
I also think fleshing out the end game to include these smaller team lead ups helps integrate the incarnate system into the rest of the game. I understand other games end game is all about raids but CoX is different in many respects and consistency of play experience is important. It should all feel like one game not a game with something tacked on. If you like the 1 to 50 experience generally you should generally like the end game. With some exceptions of course in certain tasks. Currently the end game is thin and that's understandable. What I do not understand is arguments against making this system more robust and diverse. We do not want players who come here to raid, raid, and do some more raiding PL'ing their way to 50 because they aren't interested in the rest of the game. We've all been on trials where people couldn't even locate their temp powers in their powers tab. Do we really want that to be happening more frequently?
Narrative is important in an RPG especially one inspired by comics and hero myths. I'd like to see a clearer narrative in the end game that helps players get emotionally invested in what's happening to the Praetorians and how are characters can help or take advantage of the situation depending on alignment.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist View Post
Clearly there is a problem with change, hence this thread.
It's not that simple. There was epic screaming when they introduced Enhancement Diversification - but it was a good thing. Any change has to be evaluated on its merits - not summarily dismissed or embraced.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis View Post
BINGO!

What a lot of people complaining about the trials and lack of other content are not thinking about is the big pictures. IE what is going on in the overall game development. (and so on edited for length)
Here's my view of the big picture; hopefully I'll be wrong:

; by stating they will always have another end-game trial or whatever in the pipeline, this isn't going to change much, far as I can see. When I log in, I see about 80%+ people currently online are playing their 50s.

There will be new lower level content of course, but I'm going to make the prediction that it's popularity will be like the seasonal events - 'the new shiny' for about a month, then the usual ghost town the rest of the game is, while everyone goes back to their 50s*.

Those of us who dislike playing 50s (bored of the character after about a hundred hours) or speed-runs through repeating content are going to be sort of left out in the cold, or are going to have to get used to soloing more often.

*The funny part is how common it is to see people post about being bored by the seasonal events after one week while relatively few argue the same about repeating end-game material or SF/TFs. Maybe they should attack some serious merits or whatever to the seasonal events - we'll never hear such complaints again.


 

Posted

You know what? I've only seen one person demanding a solo-incarnate path that is the same as the group path, and later she pretty much changed her position to "As long as we start getting solo-and-small-group content again, the Incarnate system can just rot" (in essence.)

However, let's do some math.

First, I'm going to use the pre 20.5 numbers. I just don't have any of the new ones off the top of my head, but they don't work out in favor of the argument actually being made anyway.

Assuming the absolute worst luck in the world, let's say every iTrial drops one common, four astrals, and one Empyrean. Doing a trial takes one hour (including organizing) and you can do two per day for this.

Now, for the 'solo' path, we'll actually assume the slightly-above-average luck of BillZ's test. This nets you ten shards and roughly 0 influence for three hours of work.

As an iTrial player, playing the maximum number of trials per day, it would take playing (if my numbers are right) 47 hours over 23 days to acquire one V.rare. Remember, this is WORST CASE. Odds are really good you'll get at least one rare and cut five days and ten hours off of that even with lousy luck.

Going solo, it will take you over a thousand hours for the better part of the year for the same reward, assuming you actually fall close to the average (IE, you're doing MUCH better than the above worst-case).

FAIR might be closer to, say, being able to solo to very rare in 90 hours over 30 days with some reliability.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis View Post
Actually it's not.

Endgame in every single other game out there consists of either endless farming or grinding 1 or 2 raids over and over and over until the next 5 - 10 levels get released then you rush up to the new farms and raids and repeat.

As far as I can tell that is all that any game has for endgame.

What are you expecting an endgame to be that is different?
Look at the Alpha slot. That is all.

You don't need ONLY raids to make a viable endgame.

The also proved that with issue 9.

So again, no endgame does not only mean raids.


EDIT: I'm defining endgame as anything that makes max level characters stronger. And issue 9 DID in fact do that.


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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
I sincerely doubt you're going to get solo incarnate content in the way you want it.

I *do* think you're going to get some kind of small team oriented stuff that might be soloable with a perfect build, though.

Seeing as how the devs have already said they are looking into it, I sincerely doubt you're correct.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!