Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass

As I say, somewhat.

I'm not keen on locking cosmetic stuff like auras and costume pieces in general, but if you *are* going to lock e.g. auras behind the incarnate system, it should be suitably incarnate-like auras.

Or from the other direction, which is closer to my personal stance on this subject: if you're going to add "normal" auras to the game, auras that are equivalent in scope and magnitude to the current level 30 (or booster pack level 1) auras, then they should be placed behind the same lock (or at least an equivalent one), not placed behind a much higher thematically unrelated lock just because that lock is the new big thing.

So chest emblems and mundane emotes should just be added to the game for all without unlock, as they always were before now. Auras that display no more an increase in power than the existing auras - like the oft-cited Slime aura - should be added to the same pool as the existing ones, unlocked at level 30.

The incarnate store should, if it has anything, be perks like unlocking the level 30 auras at level 1, the IO recipes, and suitably incarnate-like cosmetics that are a definite and obvious step up in power from the stuff unlocked earlier in the game, e.g. an incarnate-fiery-aura that steps up from the level 30 aura merely wreathing your character in flames to turning them into a true walking inferno. Or make bubbles level 30, then some kind of, uh, super-bubbles for the incarnate version. That sort of thing, where you really could argue that you don't get to display that level of power until you're walking the incarnate path (and while I know it'd be less popular, I'd say those unlocks should be like the ascension armour, level 50 only).


Alas, I fear Lemur Lad is correct that the devs don't view it as these are incarnate auras and incarnate emotes, they just view it as new assets and so they're dropping them into the new system. What frustrates is that in the past they've usually not gone that route - rewards were generally linked in either power or theme to the content they were put behind. I can't help but think a similar mindset to the pvp zones is at work here - they're worried that not enough people will want to run that sort of content to keep it sustainable (you do need a higher mass of population to keep the trials ticking along than most content) so they're throwing in unrelated rewards to try and entice people that don't actually want to run the trials: pvp rewards not enough to get you pvping? Then come for the badges! Incarnate powers not enough to get you into the trials? Then come for the faint emote! Possibly datamining shows me to be wrong, but I'm fairly sure it didn't work well for the pvp zones, and it definitely created some bad feeling from the non-pvping badgers etc; I think it's having a similar effect here.

It is indeed true that a fair number of people were not in the market for raids. However, many of the people not interested in raids were (and are) still interested in character advancement. I can only assume that a fair number of people left it be known that they desired raids and the devs decided to link that to character advancement. I am not sure they needed to be linked, but I do know it helps ensure that a large enough segment of the population lines up for the trials.

So since they are linked, those interested in advancement but not raids feel a bit left out.

Keyes Island is better to doing that, in having specific goals that require coordination to complete. Still, it's pretty formulaic: from the point where the trial was figured out (Wednesday morning here in Europe) it was pretty much following the instructions, and some of the mechanisms in the trials (disintegration, AM pulse) are still frustrating in the bad sense, not in the "challenging" sense, because they are quicktime events. Press X not to die.

So here are a few suggestions:

• Mini-games - codes to crack, wires to cut, locks to pick, that sort of things - which have to be solved by some members. These would be randomized genuine puzzles, like the safe-cracking in Mass Effect 2, so you actually have to figure them out every time.
• Dynamically spawned adds. Not just a fixed amount of ambushes, but reinforcements spawning if the engine notices somehow that the fight is going easy. Kind of an auto-adjust of rep inside the mission.
• More coordinated actions. Two people on either side of the map have to flip a switch at the same time, in order to turn off a force field in the middle of the map for five seconds. Or even, one switch is flipped for ten seconds. When both are on, the force field is off. The better the two players can coordinate themselves, the longer they can have the field open to allow passage. Add defenses that their team mates have to take care off, so that the switch-flipper is not interrupted while flipping.
• Branching missions. Currently, missions are mostly linear, and if you fail at one point, either the whole chain fails (in trials, for instance) or nothing happens and the failure is handwaved away and you get less rewards (most mission chains). What I would like to see is branching. If you succeed, then this happens; if not, something else happens. You manage to stop the goliath; good, now take the fight to Praetoria. You failed? Shucks, you have to rush to somewhere else to fend off the invasion.

In fact, I would like to see a lot of these in regular missions and task forces.

Game, set, match.

Character progression and raid grind are not the same thing, and they aren't intrinsically linked. You can have character progressions sans raids, as the old Inventions system demonstrated, and you can have raiding without character progression, as the Hamidon and Rikti Shuttle raids demonstrated. Choosing to roll both concepts into one is not the natural state of things, it is a conscious design decision, and one I happen to disagree with.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I did and I still don't get why the incarnate system specifically. lol
I have tha auras now myself tho, still can't see anything epic about it.

Edit: The iAuras may be nicer looking than the normal auras, I admit. However that's a prolly because the normal auras came long time ago. Bit like old vs new in weapon models or for example if you compare the blockheaded Hellion models to the new Rikti or IDF.

Just cuz I think it is. If you ask someone else, they prolly have different opinion. lol

If u want to know why I think that way, then I can just say that I was turned off big time by the unavoidable pulses and having to drag an agroed AV around the map to complete objectives.

That's all well and good and fine, but then explain how having fire surrounding you is different than having slime or bubbles. How is one or the other more impressive that one goes "oh this person is an Incarnate".

You never explained that part.

That is my whole issue with the logical pretzel of saying this aura or that aura signifies Incarnate power. There is no difference in the aura you get at 1, 30, or 50. Which is why I don't think the CURRENT auras are justified in being locked behind being Incarnate content no matter how you justify power. It just doesn't jive with the other more visually impressive auras we can get at any other time BEFORE 50.

Pretty much this. The devs aren't giving any justification from a lore or rp standpoint. Technically speaking they really can't. Because as Pacur alluded to the CURRENT trial-locked auras aren't that visually impressive when compared to some of the other ones we can get at level 1, or 30. And realistically (no matter how much some may not like it) they don't have to even give such a justification. They needed now powers-based rewards to add to the Incarnate system. That is all. I'm actually more fine that that, then trying to twist oneself into an rp stance that doesn't jive with the reality of the rest of the auras in the game.

4 people, on one page, asking the same question pretty much independently of one another. At this point, I don't think we are even asking Pacur specifically (though, if you read this Pacur, I am still genuinely curious). It would be great to see an explanation from a red name for the reasoning behind this, preferably something other than, "We needed to give Astral Christy and Empyrean Michael more to sell than just the Ascension costume pieces and Incarnate power chest emblems." Because, while I'm sure that's part of it, that alone (without any other reasoning) sounds like the "easy way out" and so far, this MMO has been more innovative than that and I would hate to see that innovation decrease.

Honestly, considering how repetitive this game is, I can't imagine how you'd stand it.

Specifically, they wanted people who liked running trials and liked new costume pieces a way to earn costume pieces by running trials.

I honestly think there would have been a lot less complaining (there still would have been some) if they had released some 2-3 new FULL FREE COSTUME sets along with the Incarnate stuff.

Part of the problem is that many feel we've haven't gotten any new Free costumes in a while, so seeing those pieces lvl 50 locked (you need to 50 to even start a trial, so yes it IS level 50 locked to start) right after a PAID booster set (arguably one of the most desired sets ever requested---steampunk) might actually have annoyed some folks.

Here's the direction I am looking at the current system from. Not counting alpha, I have not unlocked a single slot without immediately sticking a t3 in it. I have always had enough to create the t3 before finishing unlocking the slot.

Additionally, I don't give a flying fig about t4. The jump in power between t3 and t4 is barely noticeable, and the cost difference is huge.

So, from my standpoint, I want the t3 (in destiny and lore), because it makes me not die instantly when I step into a trial. It makes any future trials have a slightly better chance of actually being fun. It is all I want, and is one step up from nothing. Either I don't have the power at all, or I have everything I want - there is no inbetween.

So, there is no slow playing grind for that unless you like doing something you don't enjoy for no reward. The only sensible option is to hold my nose and swallow whatever icky stuff they are feeding me to get done with it as fast as possible, because along the way there is no point where I get a moment's reprieve to appreciate some small reward. I'm either chasing something in the far future, or I already have it and have no reason to ever play the content again.

And that is literally how I play. LAM until I unlock destiny and then never touch that pile of bad seafood meets large intestine again, then the same with BAF until I get lore. Oddly, I have no reason to play Keyes ever. Once it's unlocked (and immediately slotted with a t3), I place no value whatsoever on getting anything past that.

I love all the story arcs, some less than others, but I still run them occasionally. The repetition is not nearly so bad when you space out the content over months. Since I have characters in all level ranges (although I have a dearth of sub-20s since have not gotten new powersets in a year now) I can pick and choose the story arcs and therefore I do not have to run something I have recently run. I do not level up the same way, all my characters take different paths. Sometimes I run the Hollows, sometimes I run Atlas, Galaxy, KR, sometimes I run scanners/newspapers, sometimes I hunt the sewers, Perez, then Boom, sometimes I do lowbie AE arcs, sometimes I run Faultline, sometimes I run Striga, sometimes I run Talos/IP contacts, rarely I run Croatoa, often I run Founders, Bricks contact mixed with some scanners. Sometimes I team, sometimes I solo, sometimes I run just with my SG, sometimes I run on big teams, sometimes on duos or just 3, somtimes I run primarily in PUGs. I usually sprinkle some TFs throughout the leveling as well.

Recently, I have been able to throw in Tips, which has helped my redside play, since prior to tips, my choices were more narrow (the new redside Sharkhead content has helped too, hopefully we get some new redside 30-40 stuff within 12 months).

The massive amount of content in the game for leveling keeps it from being repetitive, IMO.

Alting helps a great deal, I really like the characters I make. Only playing for an hour or so when I can play no doubt helps too, leaves me with a twinge of regret for logging off. When it does gets old, I hunker down and work on a new MA arc (and at an hour per session, that's a looong time). Plus I'm not even close to having done everything in the game, all the story arcs, every tip mission, etc - I've never seen the Eden map for cryin' out loud!

As for the movie thing - that's just me, not everyone. I know some people can be all "I've seen Star Wars 35 times! ^^", but I'm not one of them. Heck, I love Frank Zappa too, but after having heard his stuff enough times to actually hear it note for note in a dream (true story), I just don't listen any more; for a film, that's usually about 4 viewings before boredom sets in. I may have one of those personalities that requires novel input more than the average bear for all I know...

Well, as stated before, it seems to me that people are having problems accepting that these auras are an increase in power, because people don't see them as "epic".

The fix is simple then: make them flashier. Honestly, I think the problem arose either by that the art department not making these auras as flashy, or the game mechanics department locking them behind E-Merits.

As I've stated 3 or 4 times previously, The simple and quick solution is to move them to be either be aquired behind Astrals (which you can get w/o running trials), Hero/Villain merits (no trials required there either), regular merits (no trials), etc...

Well, honestly, I'm getting tired of repeating the same point over and over and over again. So I'm going to make it short this time:

If people want incarnate abilities, beyond the alpha slot, they have to do the trials. If they don't want to do the trials, they can go the slow route and run TFs and SFs for shards to convert them to threads, etc. They can even run Tin Mage and Apex to get Astrals and threads.

If they are not willing to do that, well, what do they expect?


I'm not sure what you mean by "quicktime events" but I'm sure it's just something being lost in translation.

But I am not seeing how being formulaic is bad: you have a challenge, you know the formula, apply that formula to the problem, and it's solved.

As for your suggestions, you said even yourself you would want them to be in regular missions and TFs, so they kind of go beyond the scope of the trials.

Quick note: The "simultaneously click" feature is one of the most hated aspects in my experience.

I honestly am not seeing a problem with linking character progression with raids. You have a challenge, overcome it, get more powerful, etc, etc...

To play different content which is equally time consuming, challenging, and risky, but which they find more fun? And then get the same rewards.

The incarnate system specifically what?


On the second point, well, no one is forcing you to run Keyes Island. You can just run BAF and LAM.

And, honestly, I am not seeing a lot of people saying that they hate Keyes island, so it seems to me that you are in the minority there.

The line of reasoning int he first part is just splitting hairs. I already said that singling out a single power and using it as an example of all the others, is not good logic, the same way if I held out pixels and used it as a yardstick.

Also, I've said numerous times about my feelings on them being not flashy. Choosing to ignore my answers, and asking the same question again and again and again is a logical pretzel in itself.

Well you could stop posting.

As I've said above, at least three of those arguments are just splitting hairs. See above for my response.

It seems all four of these questions have the same root though: Why aren't incarnates auras more flashy? Well, I agree. They need to be more epic, honestly,

Wait, it's hard to detect sarcasm in text. Are you being serious or sarcastic here?

Again, only certain costumes are locked behind E-merits, which are only gettable via raids. Other costumes are locked behind Astrals, which are gettable through TFs.

Well, from how you describe your playstyle, I again have to say, that you were probably not the target market of this half-issue.

Well, do you really expect to have as much trials in game as there are ways to level?

The disconnect here, Pacur, is that you seem to be the only one that thinks of auras as a power. Everyone else sees them as costume items. They don't have a statistical effect on the game world (cause/heal damage or buff/debuff player/npc stats), which is the main definition of "power" most everyone uses in this context. No amount of posting is going to get the majority of people to see auras as anything other than a flashier costume piece.

I think you're right on that last part there.

There is no way that this game can have as much trial content as there is other content out now. In six more years? Maybe. Currently? No.

It's a term describing a specific game design feature. There's a wikipedia article about it.

If you have a formula, then you do not have a challenge - other than possibly having high enough stats and being attentive enough to follow the instructions.

Not really. Most of the challenges of the trials are conventional game mechanics. There isn't much difference between the "click the glowie" mechanics in a trial and that in a normal mission.

So if there are new mechanics added to the trials, why not add them to the rest of the game? For instance, I would love to have the branching mechanism in Ghost Widow's patron arc. You know, when Arbiter Daos wants you to give her the finger? That's where. I almost stopped playing the arc, because I didn't want to, and not playing the rest of the arc was the only way to not do it.

So how about a branching mechanism? At that point, you get a choice. You choose to do as Daos says, and the arc progresses as it does now. You choose to not to, and the arc progresses in another way.

Then, there are these gazillions of failable missions where the only thing that happens if you fail is that you don't get the bonus XP reward and there's a silly dialogue brushing your failure under the carpet so that the arc can progress to the next mission.

Do you have any idea how many MMOs went under due to exactly this? Not that I'm suggesting CoH is likely to "go under," but this is reason #1 people want a wider system at the outset. They do not have the resources to build enough trials to support the system, and even they did, this does not solve other issues, like the lag and the amount of time speent parked waiting for the event to start. All of these are reasons why tapering the game down to just a very small subset of not-yet-developed and time consuming material was a bad idea to begin with. I can't fault them for not having the resources to build out multiple trials at once, but I certainly can for building the system in a way they can't support.

I expect to have as much variety in task types post 50 advancement as I did pre-50. I expect it will happen someday. Before I learned they were solely making trials for incarnate advancement, I expected a mix of trials and task forces. Once I learned what they were doing, I have been suggesting they should allow more variety, eventually. I do not expect the variety to happen quickly, but I am hopeful that some will appear before I23 (and the Notice to threads is a good start, IMO). However, you seemed to think it was odd to want variety in a game that has taught us to expect variety.

I agree that often there is little variety upon a new system first being released. I actually even prefer that to an extent. But a lot of people want to know if there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think they could be appeased if they just look at the history of the game and see that systems are generally released to expand the variety, but some people are concerned this may be one of those things that takes years instead of months.