Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Then I did not completely understand what you were saying. Can you please reiterate?|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Thanks for making my point.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The top post of the page is you.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
No. I want it to be something that the average person can work gradually at, but be working at a long time - you know, the necessary elements of an endgame.
What we have instead is a system that lets you get big things fast and then has marginal improvement so far away that it's easier to just not do it at all. It's like offering a free steak dinner to tempt people to come in your $300 toothpick store. |
But back to the point: You CAN work on it now, gradually, and still unlock all five available incarnates and slot them. Yes, it takes a long time, but you get there.
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Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Similar, yes. the same? I doubt anyone would let that happen for some reason. I threw around a number or x4 in another thread, that is x4 the total time the teamers take to advance. So if you can run 2 trials with full rewards a day in about 1.5hr + 2hrs waiting For.. 2 components ~8 astrals and 2 Empyreans I'd be fine with solo (Incarnate) content taking 14hrs of constant play over a minimum of 4 days to get something similar.
Interestingly tip missions require 2 days to get to a morality mission. So you could use a similar structure. ~3.5 hrs of Incarnate tip missions = 2 astrals and that is your limit for the day, do that over 4 days and you get the option to go for an Incarnate "axiom" mission where you really get the wells attention, it's failable but if you succeed you get an Empyrean and a random component. Maybe even skew the reward tables to the low end. Just to be sure we don't advance too fast. 4 times slower than team content. Surely no one can say that that is somehow unfair to those who like to team? |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
They can simply make them more challenging. This isn't that hard.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
No you don't. Lots of auras from boosters are available at level 1, and with the new Vendors you can buy an unlock for Capes or Auras usable by any character.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Challenge? Not so much.
To become an incarnate you need the fortitude for extensive downtime while waiting for the event to begin, a strong enough net connection to make it through said event, and the stomach to repeat those action over and over. What seperates an incarnate from a non-incarnate is not challenge or skill. It is almost entirely based on how much you want to deal with these 3 specific missions and all of the things associated with them. Some people do want "solo" missions but that does not sum up everyone. IMO the majority of complaints are from people--soloists, teamers, and non-commitals--who simply take issue with the limited scope of the system and the downsizing of elligible content. I think for many of them the issue is not specific to trials but would be apparant whether the game was whittled to soloing, bank missions, radios, the AE, street sweeping, AVs, or GMs. This is why so few of people currently posting took issue with the Alpha system but now are suddenly up in arms. |
I think you are referring to all the things people are complaining about here.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
The argument from the trial lovers goes "you have to work for your reward". Also known as "you have to do X to get Y" or the "go to bed without dinner" argument.
What I'm trying to convey is that I don't mind having to work for the rewards, as long as it isn't grinding. I don't need the rewards now, but I need another way of getting them that doesn't involve grinding 3 x 30 minutes of trials. I want alternative paths. Other things to do that's not grinding trials, and still progress as incarnate. And the "bites" part is probably swenglish. It means that I don't buy into his argument about "do X to get Y", and I suspect that he won't buy my argument that I want alternative paths. There isn't a challenge. It isn't hard to complete a trial. Really. Even I can complete them. It's mostly a matter of statistics and people actually listening to instructions rather than reading the forums. But the challenge is on the level of getting people to listen to instructions like "you, tank Recluse; you, heal the first guy; the rest take on the towers in this order. Go!" The only "challenge" is to not get bored of grinding it before you're done. That isn't a challenge that I would want in this game - or any game. Boring games are failed games. On top of that, it's a meta challenge, not an in-game challenge. |
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Originally Posted by Pacur
I think you are referring to all the things people are complaining about here.
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Well, you took it upon yourself to give every one of them a stern talking to.
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Well, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It looks cool, and it gives you braging rights. it's an expression of power.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
In one way, yes; in another, no.
Purely visually, yes, the environment changed. It now has little flies/gaseous tendrils/sparks/whatever in it that wasn't there before. However, visual stuff is just that: visual stuff. It doesn't affect the game in any other way. Heck, even walking is more powerful. Not only are you visually at another position, so is your collision box. Anyone who previously tried to walk at your old position and failed will now succeed; anyone tho previously walked where you are now standing will now fail. Not only the visual appearance of the game world has changed, but also the virtual physical reality of it. And you did it! Auras doesn't affect the game's physical reality in any way. It just looks cool, and it gives you bragging rights. But that's all. |
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Why? The time invested per person doesn't change, if 16 people spend 1 hour waiting for a trial and 45 mins doing it how is that different from 16 people spending 1:45:00 doing failable missions?|
Originally Posted by Pacur
Well, I certainly see how the system you are proposing will work, but keeping in mind it takes a minimum of 16 people to run the trials (the Keyes and BAF anyway), I think it'll need to be a bit slower than 4x.
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Also:
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Originally Posted by Pacur
I strongly suspect that if they make it more challenging, there will be cries, still, of "It's too hard".
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Hard (With consummately higher rewards) is fine but the current trial is not hard, it's just broken, and will remain so as long as:
1. Pathing is broken
2. Pet AI is lobotomised
3. Anti-matter can stack gimmicks resulting in no-fault deaths and failure
4. The temp power mechanic persists with a even vaguely sensible UI
Lets make the death-pulse get worse as they damage the tiny-unobvious AV get caught in AOEs/petspam "that way we can require one of the incarnate abilities no-one takes! yay!"
Dragging an AV to a device without harming the AV? Seriously? that's what passes for "design" now. Grrr
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wasnt talking about real money. was talking about the Emp merit unlock.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
Yes, but like I said, using IRL money to unlock content is a tricky subject. Hence, I gave my alien analogy. Yes, it's not perfect, but it's the easiest thing I can come up with off the top of my head.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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That was not my intention. I simply believe every person deserves an answer.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Well, you took it upon yourself to give every one of them a stern talking to.
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Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Why? The time invested per person doesn't change, if 16 people spend 1 hour waiting for a trial and 45 mins doing it how is that different from 16 people spending 1:45:00 doing missions?
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Also, I have never seen it take an hour to put together a trial. Just thought I'd say that.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
wasnt talking about real money. was talking about the Emp merit unlock.
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Like I said, it's like your 50 imparting a measure of their power onto the lower characters.
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Uhh, no they don't. The buildings door ways floors etc, aren't permanently set on fire or covered in slime. Auras are only visual.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
Auras give your character the ability to alter the environment about themselves, so it is power.
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And yes I define power as anything that increases my ability to defeat mobs faster. So does the game, as standing around looking pretty doesn't get you any type of advancement.
Logical pretzels continue.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Each character took that time, but yeah. I went from No Judgement unlocked to Rare/Vary Rare powers in everything on a given character in under ten hours time. And yes it was a grind. But the time had nothing to do with that fact. Each of those characters probably ran each raid around 10 times or thereabouts. But it was only because they were crammed together that it was even achievable.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
Wait, back up. You got four characters over the course of a couple of evenings, and a saturday, to T3 and some even to T4?
If that is the case, them wow, you grind WAY too much. And that means this new trial wasn't designed for the way you play. |
Long term goals work in a game like this because there are mid-way goals that are easy to achieve which can give a sense of accomplishment. Getting to 50 is a long term goal. But if you had to play your way to 50 as a level 1 character, and then suddenly got everything, people would lose interest. The raids are the same way. Until you do many, you've shown no notable progress. I've tried the "slow path" a couple times, and I end up barely doing anything because it ends up feeling like a colossal waste of time.
So, instead, I burned through them quickly before my brain realized how mind numbing it was. It's like how by eating more slowly, you get full more easily, but since "full" in this case was a bad thing, the only alternative was to do as many as possible as fast as possible so that I could go back to ignoring them.
In my experience, by the time I was ready to unlock a slot, I already had everything I needed to make a Rare power for it. This wasn't a good way to balance the rate of reward, in my mind. The "long term" time it takes to earn a VR is pretty fair as well, assuming you're reasonably lucky. But it shouldn't take more than one raid, in my mind, to unlock and slot a common. Basically, I feel like it should be possible to earn commons quickly, but then should take longer to get the Uncommons and Rares, with the total amount of time to the endpoint about where it is.
...granted, what I think is meaningless, since it won't change from what it is, but, eh, you asked.
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Altering can also mean you are altering yourself. Where does it say that power is defined as only ability to defeat mobs faster?
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Uhh, no they don't. The buildings door ways floors etc, aren't permanently set on fire or covered in slime. Auras are only visual.
And yes I define power as anything that increases my ability to defeat mobs faster. So does the game, as standing around looking pretty doesn't get you any type of advancement. Logical pretzels continue. |
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I see where you're going with this, but really, IMO, this sort of thinking is very rare. For every player who thinks of mailing influence from a 50 to an alt as the well-established hero putting in a good word/appearing in a photo op with the rookie, there's ten (or a hundred) who are just "kay, need to shift another 100 mil from my farm toon to my new lowbie."
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Originally Posted by Pacur
Like I said, it's like your 50 imparting a measure of their power onto the lower characters.
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My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I really hate to say this, but it kinda sounds to me like you are creating the very problem you are trying to avoid. By rushing head-first into the content, to continue the food analogy, it would be if you went to an all-you-can-eat buffet and ate untill you couldnt anymore. End result being unable to move and swearing youa re not gona do that ever again.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Each character took that time, but yeah. I went from No Judgement unlocked to Rare/Vary Rare powers in everything on a given character in under ten hours time. And yes it was a grind. But the time had nothing to do with that fact. Each of those characters probably ran each raid around 10 times or thereabouts. But it was only because they were crammed together that it was even achievable.
Long term goals work in a game like this because there are mid-way goals that are easy to achieve which can give a sense of accomplishment. Getting to 50 is a long term goal. But if you had to play your way to 50 as a level 1 character, and then suddenly got everything, people would lose interest. The raids are the same way. Until you do many, you've shown no notable progress. I've tried the "slow path" a couple times, and I end up barely doing anything because it ends up feeling like a colossal waste of time. So, instead, I burned through them quickly before my brain realized how mind numbing it was. It's like how by eating more slowly, you get full more easily, but since "full" in this case was a bad thing, the only alternative was to do as many as possible as fast as possible so that I could go back to ignoring them. In my experience, by the time I was ready to unlock a slot, I already had everything I needed to make a Rare power for it. This wasn't a good way to balance the rate of reward, in my mind. The "long term" time it takes to earn a VR is pretty fair as well, assuming you're reasonably lucky. But it shouldn't take more than one raid, in my mind, to unlock and slot a common. Basically, I feel like it should be possible to earn commons quickly, but then should take longer to get the Uncommons and Rares, with the total amount of time to the endpoint about where it is. ...granted, what I think is meaningless, since it won't change from what it is, but, eh, you asked. |
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Originally Posted by Pacur
I really hate to say this, but it kinda sounds to me like you are creating the very problem you are trying to avoid. By rushing head-first into the content, to continue the food analogy, it would be if you went to an all-you-can-eat buffet and ate untill you couldnt anymore. End result being unable to move and swearing youa re not gona do that ever again.
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I've covered this elsewhere, but this line of reasoning is flawed. It's essentially a blame shifting strategy and a way to say "If you don't enjoy the trials it's your fault for doing the trials too much." The implication is that the poster is not temperate enough, or is too greedy for the rewards. It's a puritanical kind of stance that switches out "time" and "enjoyability," appearing to deliberately misunderstand that what people want is a path that they find fun.
The structure of acquiring powers from the trials is absolutely no different than acquiring powers in any other MMO, and if it is fair game to call those MMOs "grindy," it's fair in this one too. The only difference between how power is acquired in this scenario versus others is the specificness of the missions you are required to run.
I love I20.5 so far.
Hopefully one day, they'll build a trial that requires every single leaguer....
Having "trials" that can be run by 8 people is kinda of a joke, right?
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Keeps it casual friendly |
Originally Posted by Residentx10
Having "trials" that can be run by 8 people is kinda of a joke, right?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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How is it flawed? It was just admitted by the poster that he rushes into the trial, and gets it done as fast as possible. Repeat for 4 characters. I don't care what you're doing, be it playing a game, or watching your favorite movie, or doing work. You see the same exact thing repeated over and over and over and over in a very short amount of time, you're going to get tired of it.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I've covered this elsewhere, but this line of reasoning is flawed. It's essentially a blame shifting strategy and a way to say "If you don't enjoy the trials it's your fault for doing the trials too much." The implication is that the poster is not temperate enough, or is too greedy for the rewards. It's a puritanical kind of stance that switches out "time" and "enjoyability," appearing to deliberately misunderstand that what people want is a path that they find fun.
The structure of acquiring powers from the trials is absolutely no different than acquiring powers in any other MMO, and if it is fair game to call those MMOs "grindy," it's fair in this one too. The only difference between how power is acquired in this scenario versus others is the specificness of the missions you are required to run. |
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Originally Posted by Pacur
You see the same exact thing repeated over and over and over and over in a very short amount of time, you're going to get tired of it.
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Hmm, yep.
For me personally, a "very short period of time" for a Task Force or trial would be about two weeks.
To add my two cents to the discussion about what "power" is, mainly between Pacur and Aura-Familia, I think you are both right. Within the world of the game, as in the actual fictional universe, Pacur is correct: Having an aura is an expression of greater mastery over your powers, because that is clearly explained as you complete the mission at level 30 necessary to unlock them. However, Aura_Familia is referencing the technical aspects of an aura vs. a power, in that an aura is purely cosmetic and has no other effect whereas a power (as defined by the game mechanics) not only has a visual effect but also influences the environment and/or other players in some way. Essentially, you both are using the same word (power) to describe two different things: in Pacur's case it is prestige among the player community and the in-universe ability for a character to alter his/her appearance, and in Aura's case it is a player's ability to actually influence the other aspects of the game.
{As a quick side note, the justification for "auras expressing a greater mastery of power" a.k.a. gated behind level 30, is quickly waning with many being available at level 1 courtesy of booster packs, Going Rogue, and now the vouchers. CoHF may continue this trend.}
In the game, these are both things which are, and rightly so, expressed by being an Incarnate: you get access to powers unobtainable by lower level characters, and you gain access to costume pieces and auras that are also unobtainable by lower level characters, thus making an Incarnate character act and look the part. No one can argue that the Incarnate abilities are quite powerful and meant to be so. The cosmetic Incarnate Rewards, like the actual Incarnate powers, are meant, at least in part, to be a statement of prestige.
However, given the fact that most of the cosmetic rewards are visually on-par (meaning what they look like, not graphics quality, because that has improved) with things we already have access to at lower levels, the only "prestige" exhibited is a type of bragging rights; a way to say, "I am able to have metallic objects orbiting me because I saved up my merits after running the trials!" However, if we choose to look at it from Pacur's viewpoint, meaning from within the game universe, the question remains of why having ghosts surround you signifies "Incarnate power" whereas having wisps surrounding you does not have that significance.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
To add my two cents to the discussion about what "power" is, mainly between Pacur and Aura-Familia, I think you are both right. Within the world of the game, as in the actual fictional universe, Pacur is correct: Having an aura is an expression of greater mastery over your powers, because that is clearly explained as you complete the mission at level 30 necessary to unlock them. However, Aura_Familia is referencing the technical aspects of an aura vs. a power, in that an aura is purely cosmetic and has no other effect whereas a power (as defined by the game mechanics) not only has a visual effect but also influences the environment and/or other players in some way. Essentially, you both are using the same word (power) to describe two different things: in Pacur's case it is prestige among the player community and the in-universe ability for a character to alter his/her appearance, and in Aura's case it is a player's ability to actually influence the other aspects of the game.
{As a quick side note, the justification for "auras expressing a greater mastery of power" a.k.a. gated behind level 30, is quickly waning with many being available at level 1 courtesy of booster packs, Going Rogue, and now the vouchers. CoHF may continue this trend.} In the game, these are both things which are, and rightly so, expressed by being an Incarnate: you get access to powers unobtainable by lower level characters, and you gain access to costume pieces and auras that are also unobtainable by lower level characters, thus making an Incarnate character act and look the part. No one can argue that the Incarnate abilities are quite powerful and meant to be so. The cosmetic Incarnate Rewards, like the actual Incarnate powers, are meant, at least in part, to be a statement of prestige. However, given the fact that most of the cosmetic rewards are visually on-par (meaning what they look like, not graphics quality, because that has improved) with things we already have access to at lower levels, the only "prestige" exhibited is a type of bragging rights; a way to say, "I am able to have metallic objects orbiting me because I saved up my merits after running the trials!" However, if we choose to look at it from Pacur's viewpoint, meaning from within the game universe, the question remains of why having ghosts surround you signifies "Incarnate power" whereas having wisps surrounding you does not have that significance. |
Thank you for writing that. That pretty much explains how I define power, as I take context and game universe into account as well.
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See, that's not an unreasonable thing to believe. In fact, it's what I believed, when I first started. I figgered, do one maybe every few days, work at it a little at a time, I won't burn myself out. But the exact opposite happened. When you've been working at something slowly for a couple of weeks, and even though you know it's the slow path, you realize you have nothing to show for that couple weeks of work, it kills is just as dead. So if it's a matter of burning myself out either way, it's nicer to have some results from it.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
I really hate to say this, but it kinda sounds to me like you are creating the very problem you are trying to avoid. By rushing head-first into the content, to continue the food analogy, it would be if you went to an all-you-can-eat buffet and ate untill you couldnt anymore. End result being unable to move and swearing youa re not gona do that ever again.
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Grinding raids is grinding raids. It doesn't matter if that grind is the result of doing 20 raids in two days, or two weeks, or two years.
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Yes, precisely like man-hours. 1 team of 16 = 16 E-merits. Hence 16 teams of 1 = 1 E-merit each (plus other stuff)|
Originally Posted by Pacur
It's kind of like man-hours. It takes X man-hours to complete this (say 10 man hours to make a doghouse).
Also, I have never seen it take an hour to put together a trial. Just thought I'd say that. |
I know it doesn't take that long to set up a trial I was constructing as conservative a case as I could, favouring the pro-teamers because more realistic numbers would result in much shorter suggested solo times.
Frankly worst case timing x4 is still stupidly long, but it's doable, more so that the current between 1:50to100 ratio.
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Yes, only three times! |
Originally Posted by Pacur
You did it only three times and its old for you? Umm, I really have no response to that.
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I feel the same way about movies I really like - 3rd time in, I'm starting to know the film, to have it memorized - thus it's getting dull to re-watch it.
This game has always been fun for me due to alting and the plethora of content all over the place. When I do end up replaying some of it ("Defeat Tindelos and guards!"), at least it's coming at pretty spaced out intervals (like 2 months at a time) and it's over in ten minutes or so. This "end- game content", not so much.
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So wait, you are advocating the use of the slow path, but you also say it will also burn people out? I'm confused here (or I'm not getting something).|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
See, that's not an unreasonable thing to believe. In fact, it's what I believed, when I first started. I figgered, do one maybe every few days, work at it a little at a time, I won't burn myself out. But the exact opposite happened. When you've been working at something slowly for a couple of weeks, and even though you know it's the slow path, you realize you have nothing to show for that couple weeks of work, it kills is just as dead. So if it's a matter of burning myself out either way, it's nicer to have some results from it.
Grinding raids is grinding raids. It doesn't matter if that grind is the result of doing 20 raids in two days, or two weeks, or two years. |
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Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Yes, precisely like man-hours. 1 team of 16 = 15 E-merits. Hence 16 teams of 1 = 1 E-merit each (plus other stuff)
I know it doesn't take that long to set up a trial I was constructing as conservative a case as I could, favouring the pro-teamers because more realistic numbers would result in much shorter suggested solo times. Frankly worst case timing x4 is still stupidly long, but it's doable, more so that the current between 1:50to100 ratio. |
And also it sorta confuses me. You run 16 accounts? or am I missing something here?
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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Yes, only three times!
I feel the same way about movies I really like - 3rd time in, I'm starting to know the film, to have it memorized - thus it's getting dull to re-watch it. This game has always been fun for me due to alting and the plethora of content all over the place. When I do end up replaying some of it ("Defeat Tindelos and guards!"), at least it's coming at pretty spaced out intervals (like 2 months at a time) and it's over in ten minutes or so. This "end- game content", not so much. |
Well, I don't see a problem with alting either. I personally have only two 50s, and the rest are mid-range characters (yes, also some low lvls and some higher lvl). The incarnate trials, in my mind, are meant for people who wanted endgame content and have been asking for it for a long time. If you get bored of the trials after three runs, I am sorry to say you obviously were not int hat target market, as it were.
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No, I'm saying that while the slow path sounds good on paper, in practice, at least for me, it was just as tedious, but it was tedious without accomplishing anything, so if I'm going to be unhappy either way, I'd rather be unhappy with Incarnate Powers than be unhappy without them. Of course, I'd rather not have to be unhappy at all, but I've not been left that option.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
So wait, you are advocating the use of the slow path, but you also say it will also burn people out? I'm confused here (or I'm not getting something).
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You're welcome, and I hope that has been made clear to people who view it differently.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
Thank you for writing that. That pretty much explains how I define power, as I take context and game universe into account as well.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
*snip*the question remains of why having ghosts surround you signifies "Incarnate power" whereas having wisps surrounding you does not have that significance.
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@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Purely visually, yes, the environment changed. It now has little flies/gaseous tendrils/sparks/whatever in it that wasn't there before. However, visual stuff is just that: visual stuff. It doesn't affect the game in any other way.
Heck, even walking is more powerful. Not only are you visually at another position, so is your collision box. Anyone who previously tried to walk at your old position and failed will now succeed; anyone tho previously walked where you are now standing will now fail. Not only the visual appearance of the game world has changed, but also the virtual physical reality of it. And you did it!
Auras doesn't affect the game's physical reality in any way. It just looks cool, and it gives you bragging rights. But that's all.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"