Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm sorry, I'm not entirely clear on a point here:|
Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
How many people on either side of this are thinking something like:
Well, I feel like that a lot of the time in-game, sometimes I feel it directed at me sometime I feel that way about others. That's why I dislike teaming, and dislike mass teaming even more. Sometimes it's nice... but rarely I do however like the game, and my characters and I'd like to progress them at a rate similar to those who do enjoy teaming. None of this suggests that I wish content to be easier (per player) or quicker (per player). Actually I think the BAF/Lamb and even Keyes would be tonnes (Maybe even a Metric Assload) of fun if scaled down to harder-that-usual-missions level so I could do them like any other mission with EB's or AV's depending on difficulty setting. |
Are you implying you want to progress at a similar rate through incarnates solo as in team play?
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Originally Posted by rsclark
"Endgame" has always been a bit of a misnomer. A less concise name is "advancement after level 50". That requires that the characters still be able to advance in power, and that they have something to do with that added power.
The problem with almost everything you list there is that they have the same avenue to power advancement - IO enhancements. Mothership and ITF and LG and AE and Tips are all just alternate ways of getting the same advancement. It works, and it is good to have so many different paths. But it's also bad for several reasons. First off, it's not simple. Do what my roommate does and grab the highest (purple>orange>yellow) set you can get and 6 slot it in the powers you use the most, and you get a slightly improved character compared to what you would get with some bizarre, frankenstein of mixed sets and HOs and everything else built with a specific purpose in mind. Secondly, inf and the market exist. It is an endgame you can effectively skip if you have some other means of earning money. You can hit 50 and instantly poof yourself to the end of the endgame. The problem is that endgame needs to be really slow and have tons of stuff to get, but cannot greatly increase power, because as the power creeps up and up, you need more content to justify the need for that new level of power. The IO system has the slow, tiny power creep, but the tons of stuff doesn't exist because of the limited number of slots you have to stick stuff in. It's a fine system, but it has an effective than many people can reach - or at least give up on going any further into. So, you need a further endgame to play after you reach the end to the first endgame. Then comes the incarnate system. The absolute worst excuse for an endgame that I can imagine. First off, the rewards are not small, slow increments of power that you can grow into. With the exception of interface, every slot is a tremendous increase as soon as you slot anything. The equivalent of 30 pre-filled slots in your powers. A crashless nuke that's more powerful than a normal one and on a fast timer. A massive heal for those heal-less melee sets who used to scrape by with throwing 2 powers at the medicine pool. A pet that's better than an endless supply of shivans. Then three of them give another huge burst of power when you hit t3. This is bad design. Gradual rewards are better than huge lumps all at once, because people will accept getting gradual rewards gradually. The way it is set up now, you get nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,no thing,nothing,nothing,OMGTHATSAMAZING,nothing,noth ing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothin g,nothing,nothing,nothing,HOLYCRAPIAMGODHERE,nothi ng,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing. As a reward structure, it is moronic. The only sensible thing to do is burn through to get to whatever you want as fast as possible, because there is absolutely no reinforcement during the process at all. What I want is a well designed endgame system. The kind where I can get on and play as I would like and on occasion see some new content as I grow out of the old stuff, but generally, just play and see an improvement - no matter how slight. As it stand now, you have a choice between "do this specific content" or "keep pushing Sisyphus", neither of which is enjoyable. |
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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
The use of the term BS on my part was bad; my excuse is I was starting to write out my post and then looked up to see I was a couple of minutes late to leave for work, so I didn't edit myself. Remember: quick posting can be bad, kids!
The reasoning that "you can still do anything you want in the game" which is often tossed out in these discussions is fine up to certain a point, and that point is where I log in and see that a good 80% of people online 50s and I was hoping to do some casual PUGing below 50 like I used to without problem. Playing below 50 these days (for me, at my hours) mostly means soloing or pulling teeth to form my own team - which I can do but never had to do in the past. That's the change I've seen in the game that I dislike. Things may change, but I've never been big on the previous strike force stuff as it was and as time goes by the devs just seem to keep throwing more of that our way and making it the most rewarding (loot-wise) to do. I think I've done the new one that starts on Sharkhead (over there by the ferry? can't remember the name of it off-hand) three times now and I'm pretty much done with it. It may reward me nicely and all that but to keep running a small set of these things day after day, even just a few times a week would get really old for me. (Same thing goes for playing a 50: I only have two. I enjoyed back in their day but these days it's just dull to play them.) |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I stopped here. The WST, which is a task force can MOST CERTAINLY get you something that can advance: Notice of the Well, which can be converted to shards.
Also two specific TFs give you things that are directly tied into Incarnancy: Apex and Tin Mage. I think this is the issue that many folks are having, the view that some have that endgame MUST equal RAID/Trial when that is NOT the case. EDIT: And I say all this as someone who loves the trial system despite it's obvious warts, which the devs are working on. |
On your tpoic, would it help if more TFs were introduced that give Astrals?
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Originally Posted by McCharraigin
Gaah..then give us people who cannot, or do not want, to team for a multiple of reasons, a way of continuing down the Incarnate Path solo.
That is all I want. I am not asking for the Devs to stop the trials...not at all. My better half loves them, and I love him, so whatever he enjoys gets my stamp of approval. I am not asking to do this fast/easy, all I want is a path that will take me to the heights in a semi reasonable amount of time. Is wanting this so bad? This new issue is called Freedom. Locking all the ways of improving your level 50 toon behind mandatory teaming is not Freedom by a long shot. The word Freedom implies we have the ability/freedom to make choices. Where is the choice here? But, Freedom issue is not here yet. Could be there is a system going into place for folks like me. Could be. On the basis of this seemingly slim hope, I am going to try my darndest not to respond to the posts which make my bloodpressure rise, and rage spew out of every pore of me. I do not want to be treated like a special little snowflake...not at all, I just want another route to the greatness that is The Incarnates  A route I can happily follow. Longer, harder, it might be, yes...but one I can do. Lisa-Wishes Black Pebble would relent a bit, and allow the Devs to assure us that there is another route to glory being put into place...better yet, let Black Pebble himself write a post and do the reassuring. I feel that such an assurance would be great for the moral of everyone Lisa-logging into the game |
In the later part, you say you don't mind if it takes a long time.
You CAN solo now, but it does take a long time. So I guess here we have a problem of what constitutes a long time.
So what kind of time are you referring to here, when you say, semireasonable?
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
Actually, Claws, I'm complaining about:
The lack of anything new to do that isn't part of the New Fun; and even more egregiously, the costume bits, emotes etc that can only very tenuously be justified as "Incarnate" but were gated there specifically as "incentives" for people who would not otherwise run trials (because they just don't like that sort of thing, or have done and stopped because they're bored out of their minds by the grinding, or whyever). Because, as the Devs themselves admitted, if it was possible to get this stuff any other way, no one would run Trials for their own sake. And then this whole bubble would burst. New (cosmetic) content that pretty much everyone agrees has nothing really to do with endgame is being held back to prop up said endgame. Not cool. |
I did not see that comment, could you please point me toward it?
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I only wanted to correct some misinformation. I had no issue with his other points.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
You should of continued, he makes a few good points.
On your tpoic, would it help if more TFs were introduced that give Astrals? |
No need to re-write what worked with alpha. As has been stated repeatedly before they can:
Add an Incarnate Version to the lvl 50 tfs, in which Mobs scale to lvl 54.
Then allow those to drop an Emp, once every 48 hours.
Or better yet simply add a rare incarnate component to the weekly WST, which like the Notice of the Well, can only be gained once a week.
The devs have time out systems that work. They can simply use those until they have the time to build a true solo or small teams path.
Point being there are many other things they can do to round out the system, whiles still requiring folks to run the trials to fully incarnate out.
None of this stuff is new. It's been discussed and suggested to death over the past year, in closed, open and clopen betas.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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The top post of the page is you.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
That example is of course, extreme. But look at the top post of the page.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
So, if I understand this correctly, you want the Incarnate system scaled down?
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What we have instead is a system that lets you get big things fast and then has marginal improvement so far away that it's easier to just not do it at all. It's like offering a free steak dinner to tempt people to come in your $300 toothpick store.
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Wait, back up. You got four characters over the course of a couple of evenings, and a saturday, to T3 and some even to T4?|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I wrote out a response and accidentally clicked away before posting, so this is more of a summary (I know what you're thinking, "Laz, if this is the quick version...holy crap"). It's a little more terse than originally intended as a result, but most of the points still stand.
Well, they might exist because they're fun? And honestly? I mean that. They're fun. The first couple of times. What they, and all the content in this game is exactly like your analogy: something that's fun to do a few times, at which point you can move on from it and do something new. If they want something that can't be done quickly, then they've failed. Because I got all four of the i20 Rare powers (sometimes, they Very Rares) on four different characters, and none of them took longer than a couple evenings and a lazy Saturday. What's more, the reason I have four characters I did Incarnates with in the first place was because Alpha was reasonable to obtain with a variety of characters. Making us grind out the trials as it stands doesn't make me do them any more, or less, it just means I have fewer characters I bother to do them with. That Task Forces are not endgame is an arbitrary decision. Task Forces worked well as end game for the Alpha slot, and could work just as well if incorporated into the current ones. Apex and Tin Mage, amusingly, still haven't really been used for Incarnate progression at all, despite being labelled as content for such. Before the trials, there were seven different tasks that would all provide meaningful Incarnate progress, and we weren't even restricted to those seven, because of Shards. Now, we have three, and because of the infinitesimal rate of return, we can't make reasonable progress through the rest of the game, either. Basically, the trial system has given us a negative amount of content. There's more to get, but less to do to get it. The whole point of not adding 10 more levels, as has been pointed out in this topic, was because of the steep amount of additional content that would need to be added. The Incarnate system was, in theory, supposed to work, because it involved more things to do to improve our level 50s characters, but since everything we could do before has been removed from that equation, we've actually been given less to do. Speaking from my own perspective, I rather doubt that the same people complaining about the grind are also the people running repeated ITFs. Or, at least, I can say that about myself. My four Incarnates all did ITFs as part of their Alpha progress, certainly, but I don't think any of them individually had to run that single TF more than once. At most, I might've done three. Three BAFs won't even unlock the Judgement slot. I'm snipping the next few paragraphs because, as demonstrated here, you're kind of building off a false premise. But in short, you're right. People who want to maximize rewards grind ITFs unflinchingly. And those same people grind the raids unflinchingly. But the people who want variety can get the same rewards the ITF gives reasonably without doing nothing but ITFs. People who want the rewards from the raids do not have that option. Except it's the way this game has worked, since i9, for many years now. I could join a TF, or fight a Mothership raid, or just solo arcs on my own, and all of those would allow me to make meaningful progression. What I've been able to do in the past is log on in the evening for an hour or two, say "okay, I want to do X", and do it, and when I'm done, I can say "okay, and here's what I have to show for it". The new system allows for neither of these things. I don't have a choice in the case of my 50s. I can raid, or nothing. And when I'm done, I often have absolutely nothing to show for it. |
If that is the case, them wow, you grind WAY too much. And that means this new trial wasn't designed for the way you play.
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Originally Posted by Gaspard
Don't mind the costumes/auras being unlockable.
I do mind however that astral merits cannot be obtained by converting. I also think that the Keyes has the worst trial/tf design by far. lol |
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Similar, yes. the same? I doubt anyone would let that happen for some reason. I threw around a number or x4 in another thread, that is x4 the total time the teamers take to advance. So if you can run 2 trials with full rewards a day in about 1.5hr + 2hrs waiting For.. 2 components ~8 astrals and 2 Empyreans I'd be fine with solo (Incarnate) content taking 14hrs of constant play over a minimum of 4 days to get something similar.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
I'm sorry, I'm not entirely clear on a point here:
Are you implying you want to progress at a similar rate through incarnates solo as in team play? |
Interestingly tip missions require 2 days to get to a morality mission. So you could use a similar structure. ~3.5 hrs of Incarnate tip missions = 2 astrals and that is your limit for the day, do that over 4 days and you get the option to go for an Incarnate "axiom" mission where you really get the wells attention, it's failable but if you succeed you get an Empyrean and a random component. Maybe even skew the reward tables to the low end. Just to be sure we don't advance too fast.
4 times slower than team content. Surely no one can say that that is somehow unfair to those who like to team?
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That's actually not that difficult. All you need is lucky drops at the end of each trial. No grinding at all required.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
Wait, back up. You got four characters over the course of a couple of evenings, and a saturday, to T3 and some even to T4?
If that is the case, them wow, you grind WAY too much. And that means this new trial wasn't designed for the way you play. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
The way to advance your Incarnate should be to play them through anything in the game.
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Most sense I've read in days!
Rather than the Devs wracking their brains for Incarnate material, why not simply state that ANY material run at lvl 50 at +4/X8 Diff counts as Incarnate material? Have one mission worth 5 Threads, flat amount. 4 missions = 1 Common Component. Use only missions that can't be stealthed in some way to keep us honest. There...all set.
I can run 5 missions in an hour most days, including some travel time. In the same hour I can get at least 1 Common and an Astral so the pacing is about the same.
No new content to write and very little code. The people who want to run Trials once a day for the Eymperian or a chance at an Uncommon or higher can do so. The ones who want to try Incarnate stuff solo are happy to. So are the folks who like smaller teams and less lag.
IMHO the conversion rates still need adjusted but then I haven't looked at them since the patch.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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You are right, they wont. However, the large number of posts I've seen all stated that they want a solo option, and I concede that some people want to solo. I won't repeat my reasons why I believe that it shouldn't happen for certain content.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You're right, there will be complaints. And the game won't blow up because of it.
It didn't blow up when tanks got bruising. It didn't blow up when defenders got their scaling down as team size goes up damage buff. It didn't blow up when SR got DDR. All the redside players didn't mass-migrate to blueside when we got sideswitching. And the itrials won't turn into complete ghost towns if a solo incarnate path is added. |
What would you want the solo option to look like then?
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
And do you know why? It's because that's a chore. Games are supposed to be fun, not a chore.
If it had been that I had to do X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9 or X10, or a combination of those involving similar amount of play, then I could possibly accept doing that to get Y. If you think it's fun, then by all means, enjoy it, but don't expect me to. And don't expect that the "do X to get Y" argument bites on me anymore than the "can't we at least have an option to do X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9 or X10 instead?" bites on you. |
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Originally Posted by Pacur
You are right, they wont. However, the large number of posts I've seen all stated that they want a solo option, and I concede that some people want to solo. I won't repeat my reasons why I believe that it shouldn't happen for certain content.
What would you want the solo option to look like then? |
I'm not speaking for Bill, but "the Alpha slot" is my answer. I loved that system and went into the incarnate content expecting it to be the model, with the trials playing the role similar to the Task Forces and the WST. That part of the incarnate system I have never had issue with.
I, personally, am not and have never been a dedicated soloist. I did enjoy being able to pick up a few shards here and there in the few moments I spent solo though.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
The way to advance your Incarnate should be to play them through anything in the game.
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But not everything in the game is challenging. Challenge makes people stronger, therefore, to get to an incarnate level of power, you need an incarnate level of challenge.
There are really two ways to get to the same destination: One is long, but does not require you to do any trials, yet you can get almost anything you want.
The other is short, requires you to do trials, and you can get anything you want.
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They can simply make them more challenging. This isn't that hard.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
But not everything in the game is challenging. Challenge makes people stronger, therefore, to get to an incarnate level of power, you need an incarnate level of challenge.
There are really two ways to get to the same destination: One is long, but does not require you to do any trials, yet you can get almost anything you want. The other is short, requires you to do trials, and you can get anything you want. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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See my above explanation for a higher character giving some of his power to a lower character.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The whole source of the problem is that they aren't more flashy. People are unhappy with auras arbitrarily being locked behind the Incarnate system without rhyme or reason. The "sign of power" for what it's worth, doesn't really work anyway, since once they are unlocked, you can put them on any character, even one at level 1.
That said, if they were Incarnate themed, I doubt many people would have such a beef. Most people are okay with the Ascension Armor and UltimatePower emote being Incarnate-locked, it seems to me. |
So, ok, I think then we agree that the emotes need to either be flashier, or not cost E-Merits. Am I right?
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Originally Posted by Gaspard
Ya that's actually a good point. I don't really see anything incarnate-like in a binary code or pixels, because they are the most interesting ones imo.
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Personally, I wouldn't want a solo option specifically. I would like something that plays just like the regular non-trial content. Some players would be able to solo it, sure, and they're welcome to it.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
What would you want the solo option to look like then?
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One option is to say that +4/+8 rep would count as Incarnate content, and add some of the rewards to the regular content's reward tables if those conditions are met. The Merits and possibly the Very Rare drops can be kept at the trials. This would be similar to Comicsluvr's proposal.
A variant would be to have Incarnate Stuff as an optional setting to task/strike forces. It could play pretty much by the same rules as above. It would still be several times as much content as the current trials, and some of it would actually have incarnates in it (as opposed to the incarnate trials which don't, but have a minion to a incarnate in two of them, and the robots made by an incarnate in one).
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Originally Posted by Biowraith
No, the argument is that slime/bubbles/whatever aren't any more incarnatey, any more of a sign of increased power, than the various auras we can get earlier in the game without touching incarnate content. The suggestion that they are is what I considered to be silly.
Also that it's not really a display of increasing incarnate power since it doesn't have to be the incarnate character that uses them (unless we're going to argue that the Well gave Cole the ability to endow his minions with some incarnate power, and it gave us the ability to endow our 'minions' (alts) with some slime, but that's going back to the realms of silly ;p) Somewhat - at least I'd personally be more accepting of it - I don't have any major gripe about the glowie version of the incarnate armour being locked behind the trials for example, or the ultimate power emote. But it'd need to be *noticeably* flashier than all the non-incarnate stuff (not just flashier than slime or whatever) for any "but you're getting more powerful!" argument to really fly with me. I'm not generally keen on gating cosmetic stuff, but I'm *really* not keen on it being arbitrary cosmetic stuff that has no link to whatever it's gated behind, and is only there as a kind of bribe to get us to run the content. |
Ok, so if the auras were more flashier, would it solve the problem then? We seem to be reaching the point where we find out that the incarnate stuff needs to be more flashy.
Seems to me that's one of the roots of the problem.
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It's not nonsense. To get access to auras, you have to do a special mission. If you don't do it, you can't access it. Same thing with the new auras.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Except that you can unlock that for another level 1 character who will never be an incranate.
The logic of auras showing incarnancy isn't logical. What's the difference between a fire aura that can only be unlocked at level 1 versus bubbles/slime/insert whatever the the hell you want here, that can't be unlocked until level 30? If you want to say the auras are locked behind them for something for us to do after tiering up our REAL incarnate abilities, sure. But I'm not buying this nonsense that any aura signifies an increase in power. It hasn't in seven years of this game. It doesn't now. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Auras are NOT ASCENSION costumes. Most folks are FINE with that being locked away. (Though I personally don't see cosmetics are increasses in power, that's my issue).
Aura, no. Sorry. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The definition of power is my issue. For seven years neither auras nor costumes have equaled an increase in power.
Hell the devs did NOT sell Ascension Armor that way when they discussed during beta. It wouldn't fly. This isnt WoW where a costume pieces increases your recharge, jump height, end usage etc. Let me ask you straight out, what specific increase in power do these pieces give us? And I mean in terms of recharge, damage, end usage... the traditional increases in power in this game for seven years. I'll wait. |
I define power as well...anything.
Do you define power only in abilities?
Auras can be unlocked via Tin Mage/Apex now, so you don't have to do any trials to get them.
The ONLY thing you need to do trials for is Radiant Ascenscion armor.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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No you don't. Lots of auras from boosters are available at level 1, and with the new Vendors you can buy an unlock for Capes or Auras usable by any character.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
It's not nonsense. To get access to auras, you have to do a special mission. If you don't do it, you can't access it. Same thing with the new auras.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Ok, but auras DO signify an increase in power. See my reasons above.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I'm just quoting this as it is a great, concise example of what I was going to say to your reply to me...
It is the ridiculous" things that many people have been offering their negative feedback about. And your post was pointing to this particular negative feedback as being wrong/unnecessary. You keep acknowledging the actual points of the people expressing negative feedback... and then dismissing them as you go back to saying that there is no overall problem. That was my point in my first reply to you and your reply to me and replies to others continue to do the same thing. It's cool... everything is okay. We both agree about this. There are reasons for the negative feedback and it is not hyperbole and doom cries. It's just people, actual people, with different playstyles, preferences, enjoyments, tastes, amounts-of-time, interests, etc. that are using these forums to express their opinions. They are not wrong. And no one is wrong to enjoy the way things are. |
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Higher characters give an aspect of their power to lower characters, etc, etc....|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Another perfect example...
How do you handle the fact that these auras and costumes unlock globally? You say it shows the increase in power by earning that power in-game... How does The Electric-Knight unlocking these auras for a level 30 Mastermind that player also plays fit into that in-game-world reasoning that you use to explain things to me? Again, all of this is with respect and I apologize for not replying directly to the post you made in reply to me... These just inspired the exact thoughts I wished to express. And I honestly only express them because I think you'll understand. |
And I appreciate your honesty.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
But not everything in the game is challenging. Challenge makes people stronger, therefore, to get to an incarnate level of power, you need an incarnate level of challenge.
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Challenge? Not so much.
To become an incarnate you need the fortitude for extensive downtime while waiting for the event to begin, a strong enough net connection to make it through said event, and the stomach to repeat those action over and over.
What seperates an incarnate from a non-incarnate is not challenge or skill. It is almost entirely based on how much you want to deal with these 3 specific missions and all of the things associated with them. Some people do want "solo" missions but that does not sum up everyone. IMO the majority of complaints are from people--soloists, teamers, and non-commitals--who simply take issue with the limited scope of the system and the downsizing of elligible content. I think for many of them the issue is not specific to trials but would be apparant whether the game was whittled to soloing, bank missions, radios, the AE, street sweeping, AVs, or GMs. This is why so few of people currently posting took issue with the Alpha system but now are suddenly up in arms.
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I fail to see how it is a logical pretzel.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
If you have to twist yourself into a logical pretzel it fails.
I think the issue is what one considers power. I don't consider a flashy costume to be indicative of power. Any fool can put on a costume, doesn't make them a superhero if their weak as spit. Traditionally for this game, power has been equated with increased recharge, end managment, new abilities, etc. So what are these auras increasing my character's ability to do? |
Also, as I said before, I think we are working from different definitions of power here.
I like the definition of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28philosophy%29
Power gives us ability to control the environment around us. Auras change the environment. So, they are a measure of power.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
See my response.
Traditionally for this game costume pieces have not been seen to be an increase in power. |
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Oh, people took issue with the Alpha system. Don't you remember? This is the COH fanbase, people take issue if they are handed candy.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Challenge? Not so much.
To become an incarnate you need the fortitude for extensive downtime while waiting for the event to begin, a strong enough net connection to make it through said event, and the stomach to repeat those action over and over. What seperates an incarnate from a non-incarnate is not challenge or skill. It is almost entirely based on how much you want to deal with these 3 specific missions and all of the things associated with them. Some people do want "solo" missions but that does not sum up everyone. IMO the majority of complaints are from people--soloists, teamers, and non-commitals--who simply take issue with the limited scope of the system and the downsizing of elligible content. I think for many of them the issue is not specific to trials but would be apparant whether the game was whittled to soloing, bank missions, radios, the AE, street sweeping, AVs, or GMs. This is why so few of people currently posting took issue with the Alpha system but now are suddenly up in arms. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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The argument from the trial lovers goes "you have to work for your reward". Also known as "you have to do X to get Y" or the "go to bed without dinner" argument.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Especially the bites part.
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What I'm trying to convey is that I don't mind having to work for the rewards, as long as it isn't grinding. I don't need the rewards now, but I need another way of getting them that doesn't involve grinding 3 x 30 minutes of trials. I want alternative paths. Other things to do that's not grinding trials, and still progress as incarnate.
And the "bites" part is probably swenglish. It means that I don't buy into his argument about "do X to get Y", and I suspect that he won't buy my argument that I want alternative paths.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
But not everything in the game is challenging. Challenge makes people stronger, therefore, to get to an incarnate level of power, you need an incarnate level of challenge.
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The only "challenge" is to not get bored of grinding it before you're done. That isn't a challenge that I would want in this game - or any game. Boring games are failed games. On top of that, it's a meta challenge, not an in-game challenge.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Well, we only have servers here because of hardware limitations (among other things). If this were like EVE online, with us all sharing the same server, it would be quite different, really.|
Originally Posted by Anchor
That might explain giving the items to characters on the same server, but can you not also uplift/take under your wing/send global mails to a character on a different server on which your Incarnate has never existed?
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However, I don't see us all merging onto one server anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And I call BS, because THAT is called railroading, aka 'Game Godmoding Players'.
Who the hell gave anyone, anyone but me, the right to decide what the hell my characters can and cannot do? Sure, I can live with levelling. I can live with other things that are base-line MMO fare. I can wear a damn cape at level 1, courtesy of booster packs. But, I cant wear THIS cape until...well, whenever. I can have THIS aura but not THAT aura...oh, and I have to be THIS awesome to catch my breath, faint and collapse. That argument is utter, utter tripe. |
Again, I have to reiterate that these particular costumes and auras signify your increase in power as you travel down the path of an incarnate.
I have expressed my views previously on the faint and collapse emotes.
How is this however "railroading" or "Game Godmoding Players" (a term I have never encountered before)?
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Well, I can make anything up to make this not work or any number of things to make it work or not work or whatever I'd wish to do.
So, I think it is time to stop any attempt at a conversation here. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
See my question above.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Of course you don't. You like the trials, so you don't see it my way.
Which is why you have to modify the analogy to make it reflect your point of view. That point of view is not my point of view, so from my point of view, your analogy don't hold. However, your analogy shows how you feel about the whole business, and I will respect that point of view. But, and here's the big but, it doesn't show how I feel about the "do X to get Y" arguments or "learn to like it, because more is coming" arguments, and it certainly doesn't show what I feel about grinding trials. Please, continue to enjoy spinach. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Funny as how teams are already steamrolling through Keyes. I was just on three back to back ones.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You wait for the next round of non trial stuff. Just like people who like big group raids/trials had to wait for years for something they liked.
Acting like everything from now on forever and ever is gonna be related to this feature and locked behind a wall you're unwilling to climb is shortsighted at best, moronic at worst. |
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
No, it actually works like this: "I have a barcode on my chest. And I can swoon. That means that one of my characters have grinded Incarnate content. I has bragging rights!!! Fear me!!!"
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On the second point, when you say your characters get incarnated in a couple of days, what exactly do you mean? Can you clarify please?
/shrug. Luck of the draw.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!