Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ok, read up on the QTE, and I just have to disagree. In no trial (or arc, once in a TF) have I been asked to interact during a cutscene in order to have something happen.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
It's a term describing a specific game design feature. There's a wikipedia article about it.
If you have a formula, then you do not have a challenge - other than possibly having high enough stats and being attentive enough to follow the instructions. Not really. Most of the challenges of the trials are conventional game mechanics. There isn't much difference between the "click the glowie" mechanics in a trial and that in a normal mission. So if there are new mechanics added to the trials, why not add them to the rest of the game? For instance, I would love to have the branching mechanism in Ghost Widow's patron arc. You know, when Arbiter Daos wants you to give her the finger? That's where. I almost stopped playing the arc, because I didn't want to, and not playing the rest of the arc was the only way to not do it. So how about a branching mechanism? At that point, you get a choice. You choose to do as Daos says, and the arc progresses as it does now. You choose to not to, and the arc progresses in another way. Then, there are these gazillions of failable missions where the only thing that happens if you fail is that you don't get the bonus XP reward and there's a silly dialogue brushing your failure under the carpet so that the arc can progress to the next mission. |
If you have a formula you absolutely can have a challenge. The challenge lies in applying the formula. To kind of continue your food analogy of a cake you made a few posts ago, you need to know the formula to making the cake, you need to know the order ti mix the ingredients, put it in the over, when to take it out, and when to decorate it. Otherwise you decorate the eggs, put them int he oven, mix the flour and sugar in a bowl, then try to mix it together after the eggs have exploded in the oven.
I have to disagree that trial mechanics are the same as regular mission arc mechanics. In no mission have I been told to stop escaping prisoners, or I fail the arc. In no arc have I been told that I have a pulse damaging me for the entirety of a mission. These are just a couple example and I could go on.
I do agree that a branching mechanism would be nice for some missions, however.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Do you have any idea how many MMOs went under due to exactly this? Not that I'm suggesting CoH is likely to "go under," but this is reason #1 people want a wider system at the outset. They do not have the resources to build enough trials to support the system, and even they did, this does not solve other issues, like the lag and the amount of time speent parked waiting for the event to start. All of these are reasons why tapering the game down to just a very small subset of not-yet-developed and time consuming material was a bad idea to begin with. I can't fault them for not having the resources to build out multiple trials at once, but I certainly can for building the system in a way they can't support.
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It sounds to me you want as much incarnate content now, as opposed to waiting for it. That is the sense I get from the very first sentence.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I expect to have as much variety in task types post 50 advancement as I did pre-50. I expect it will happen someday. Before I learned they were solely making trials for incarnate advancement, I expected a mix of trials and task forces. Once I learned what they were doing, I have been suggesting they should allow more variety, eventually. I do not expect the variety to happen quickly, but I am hopeful that some will appear before I23 (and the Notice to threads is a good start, IMO). However, you seemed to think it was odd to want variety in a game that has taught us to expect variety.
I agree that often there is little variety upon a new system first being released. I actually even prefer that to an extent. But a lot of people want to know if there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think they could be appeased if they just look at the history of the game and see that systems are generally released to expand the variety, but some people are concerned this may be one of those things that takes years instead of months. |
For six years, there has been no trial/raiding/endgame content (call it what you will). Now there is, because people have been asking for it for a long time. You say you wish to see a light at the end of the tunnel, as if this is some sort of dark time indeed for the game.
You cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel because there IS no tunnel.
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I've certainly spent a lot of time waiting for trials on your server, Pacur; I've even waited along with you while some of your leagues filled up. I'd have to say the time spent waiting for trials is a large percentage of the entire time I've devoted to trials. |
Originally Posted by Pacur
As I said before, I do not find putting a team together for trials and TFs to be exceedingly large. Even on a low-pop server such as mine it is not difficult.
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It wouldn't bother me as much if we could actually do things while waiting, but unfortunately we can't.
-D
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#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
Hi Everyone,
As you may notice, this thread has become a bit shorter. This is not because anything has been deleted, but rather because I've been merging a lot of posts that were written by the same poster back-to-back. In the interest of improving readability, please try to reply to multiple posts in the same response, instead of spreading it out over multiple posts.
Thank you all for your passion and your contributions to the community!
Sincerely,
Moderator 13
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Sneaky, sneaky Mod. Here i thought Pacur had suddenly learned to use multi-quoting. |
Originally Posted by Moderator 13
Hi Everyone,
As you may notice, this thread has become a bit shorter. This is not because anything has been deleted, but rather because I've been merging a lot of posts that were written by the same poster back-to-back. In the interest of improving readability, please try to reply to multiple posts in the same response, instead of spreading it out over multiple posts. Thank you all for your passion and your contributions to the community! Sincerely, Moderator 13 |
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To add my own voice to the Incarnate trial debate, or is it a civil war? Hard to tell with the volume used by some people.
As a level 50 kin/rad and 4 year player of CoX, I tried my best with the Incarnate trials and tried to learn the system and the slots and all that. I had my keyster handed to me and my lunch money taken. I can't keep up with the breakneck pace. It's not working for me, and I'm not going to do with them again. Ever.
Having said this, I'm not going to join the mobs screaming for the Incarnates to be dumbed down or removed outright or complain they are too hard.
Incarnates are God-like powers. The stuff Lord Recluse and Statesman are made of. They are supposed to be breakneck hard and rapid-fire paced. If you cannot handle it, don't fret about not getting the powers, emotes, or costume pieces. You are not Incarnate material and that's it. Go do something else. That's what I am going to do. There's still 7 years of content a level 50 can still do and there's always the AE I wanted to learn. I love writing stories and the AE is certainly the closest thing to interactive story writing.
I'm not being harsh, but I am offering a reality check on what these incarnate trials are supposed to be and why they are that difficult.
Event Horizon Man
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If only.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Sneaky, sneaky Mod. Here i thought Pacur had suddenly learned to use multi-quoting.
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Thanks, oh great Mod. And Pacur, perhaps you could follow the example(s) here set?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
*sigh* I wish they'd just make a couple of official threads on the subject, so we didn't have to keep track of eleven different threads on the same bloody subject...
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
The auras, emotes, chest emblems, etc., are locked behind incarnate trials because they want the Incarnate system to offer every kind of carrot possible as an incentive to play it. There is no other reason. The auras, the emotes, anything that isn't the Ascension pieces aren't meant to say "Incarnate." Only Ascension is meant for that, and that's why it's the only reward you can't claim until 50.
I know a lot of people don't like it, but that's the reason. I doubt they (the devs) will change their minds.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Thank you for putting it that way. I completely agree. Incarnates are the super-powers for the superpowered. They are meant to either A)Take a long time or B)be hard to obtain (yes, yes, BAF and LAM are easy, Keyes was mastered in a day, I know).|
Originally Posted by MoggieCanada
To add my own voice to the Incarnate trial debate, or is it a civil war? Hard to tell with the volume used by some people.
As a level 50 kin/rad and 4 year player of CoX, I tried my best with the Incarnate trials and tried to learn the system and the slots and all that. I had my keyster handed to me and my lunch money taken. I can't keep up with the breakneck pace. It's not working for me, and I'm not going to do with them again. Ever. Having said this, I'm not going to join the mobs screaming for the Incarnates to be dumbed down or removed outright or complain they are too hard. Incarnates are God-like powers. The stuff Lord Recluse and Statesman are made of. They are supposed to be breakneck hard and rapid-fire paced. If you cannot handle it, don't fret about not getting the powers, emotes, or costume pieces. You are not Incarnate material and that's it. Go do something else. That's what I am going to do. There's still 7 years of content a level 50 can still do and there's always the AE I wanted to learn. I love writing stories and the AE is certainly the closest thing to interactive story writing. I'm not being harsh, but I am offering a reality check on what these incarnate trials are supposed to be and why they are that difficult. Event Horizon Man |
Oh, Moggie, if you are willing, id love to answer any questions you may have about the incarnates trials, and, if you have a character on my server would gladly run with you through them.
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We're not complaining that they're too hard. At least, I'm not. I'm complaining that it's a) trial only, b) grind only, and c) that regular non-incarnate content is locked behind it.|
Originally Posted by MoggieCanada
Having said this, I'm not going to join the mobs screaming for the Incarnates to be dumbed down or removed outright or complain they are too hard.
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And I don't mention the alternative path, because it's simply not a viable path.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
Trials can be fun in moderation, and moderation is exactly what I intend to take them in. I did two Lambs, one Beef, and one Key Lime Pie a couple of days ago, I did the weekly strike target yesterday, and I may do some more today if the mood takes me. Or, I may go play another game and charge up to people so I can smash grenades into their faces. While drunk. As long as it's fun, I'll play; I absolutely, resolutely refuse to grind.
With all of the rewards combined from the above trialling (inf-to-IXP, shards-to-threads, notice-to-threads, merits, salvage tables) I have managed to get myself a tier two Interface, a tier one Judgement, enough IXP to unlock both slots and still end up with more influence than I started with. That's perfect. The solo rewards path is most certainly broken as all hell, and I feel for people who dislike teaming.
I don't like how expensive the Ascension Armor is, but I accept that it's very much an Incarnate reward. On principle, tying costumes to end-game rewards of that magnitude is not something I am a fan of, but the costumes have been designed to be Incarnate-related from the start.
Now, having said all that, gating the auras and emotes behind Astral merits is absurd. In my "take it as it comes" pace, I cannot spare so many merits on things so trivial, and yet they are genuinely good costume pieces that I may want. I spend as much time inside the tailor as the next man, but I won't spend ten Astrals on any generic aura, costume piece or emote.
The thinking of the developers is clear as day to me. They had these new path auras and emotes, were in the middle of finishing Freedom, and wanted to bulk up I20.5 a bit, so they added them into the Astral and Empyrean vendors while they were there. I'd much rather put some Paragon Points towards the auras, but until Freedom launches, there is no effective way of selling them to us without putting them into a Super Booster. I feel their pain, as small Boosters (like the Party Pack) are derided, while Super Boosters carry the expectations of costume change emotes, auras and a special themed power.
I won't spend merits on the new path auras and emotes, but when Freedom launches, I have faith that Paragon will make them available there.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
We're not complaining that they're too hard. At least, I'm not. I'm complaining that it's a) trial only, b) grind only, and c) that regular non-incarnate content is locked behind it.
And I don't mention the alternative path, because it's simply not a viable path. |
Why is it not viable? You still get the same stuff, it just takes longer.
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Prohibitively longer. The current options work less as solo or casual path and more as a supplement to continue progression when you aren't doing trials. The solo/casual path should take longer then devoting yourself to trials, but not as long as it takes now. Also I say solo/casual as because I don't think a purely solo path should be the main focus, but rather team progression that has a solo option. The current drop system doesn't seem to reward team play as well as the experience system, but if a system similar to the experience system could be put in place that would work well. The way I see that working (and it's probably been put forth before) is the larger the team the better the chance of a drop still randomly divided among the team. You would still be at the mercy of the RNG but you should see more rewards teamed then solo. For all I know the game might already do this, and if not the system would have to be worked so current trial rewards don't sky rocket. Kinda rambling so I'll stop now.
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Originally Posted by Pacur
Why is it not viable? You still get the same stuff, it just takes longer.
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Double posting here.
I was wondering if any of the forumites who support casual progression would be opposed if Mender Ramiel's arc (including the Trapdoor fight) was used as reference for the bare minimum difficulty for casual incarnate progress.
Fine with me.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Double posting here.
I was wondering if any of the forumites who support casual progression would be opposed if Mender Ramiel's arc (including the Trapdoor fight) was used as reference for the bare minimum difficulty for casual incarnate progress. |
It depends. My general issue with the incarnate stuff is less about the specific missions and more about the very limited choice of them.
Going into all this I had the tacit assumption that incarnate level Task Forces would be on the table. I assumed this because that is what so many other games do.
Overall I still prefer the system used by the Alpha slot to anything.
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Not really. When you solo a TF or a story arc, you get the same stuff (reward merits) but it takes longer. In this case, it takes longer to accumulate Shards than it does Threads, and it costs inf to convert those Shards into Threads if you want a 1:1 conversion rate. To be fair, the costs have decreased, and the 1 million inf it now costs to convert 10 shards to 10 threads should be easily obtainable in the time it takes to acquire 10 Shards. But why should it cost anything at all? If they are sticking with the slower drop rate for Shards, then the increased amount of time it takes to accumulate the necessary amount of shards should be enough of a hindrance. Same with the Notice of the Well conversion, as that is only obtainable once a week. |
Originally Posted by Pacur
Why is it not viable? You still get the same stuff, it just takes longer.
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If players want to continuously run other high level content in search for shards that they can then convert to threads, and those shards drop less frequently than threads which, in turn, requires a longer time commitment, is not that equal to a player who wants to continuously run the trials in order to get the components he needs to craft his powers?
And in response to LISAR's question, yes, I find the Alpha Unlock Arc to be a worthy difficulty level for future small scale Incarnate-based content. However, for obtaining components, I see nothing wrong with the system that came with Issue 19.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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If it takes many times longer then it's not viable.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
Why is it not viable? You still get the same stuff, it just takes longer.
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If you can unlock the powers in a couple days play by doing trials, but it takes months of play time to unlock the powers without doing the trials (assuming comparable amounts of play time per day) then the latter path is not particularly viable from a psychological standpoint.
The difficult part is nailing down what multiple of increased time is considered viable.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
That's it. I'm done. I cant take this anymore. I stated the reasons plainly, clearly, and concisely. I agreed that some things DO need to change about what things are available exclusively through E-Merits, and should be moved to Astrals, regular merits, or whatever.
Incarnate powers are not FORCED upon people. Its a choice if you want them or not. Want just Alpha slot? yes, sure, it's soloable. its easy. Want something more? Well, I'm sorry but you have to work for it.
Not all thing sin life are supposed to be accomplished by a single person. Or, rather, not all things in life are supposed to be accomplished by one persona s fast as a group of people. You cant become a doctor sitting in a library all day, every day, for several years, and expect to have the same rate of progression as someone who goes to school.
You can't paint a house at the same speed solo as a group of people painting the same house at the same time.
You cant...well, you get the idea.
Yet on these boards I see people metaphorically beating this issue to death that they want to solo incarnates at the same rate as groups do. Well, THAT IS JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
TLDR: If you want Incarnate powers, you gona have to do trials for it.
Poor, misunderstood Pacur. Believe me, your message comes across loud and clear. It's too bad you're not a dev, because then we'd have a definite roadmap for the solo content at least.
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This game was not like this before when it came to rewards and is still running 6 years later.|
Originally Posted by Pacur
That's it. I'm done. I cant take this anymore. I stated the reasons plainly, clearly, and concisely. I agreed that some things DO need to change about what things are available exclusively through E-Merits, and should be moved to Astrals, regular merits, or whatever.
Incarnate powers are not FORCED upon people. Its a choice if you want them or not. Want just Alpha slot? yes, sure, it's soloable. its easy. Want something more? Well, I'm sorry but you have to work for it. Not all thing sin life are supposed to be accomplished by a single person. Or, rather, not all things in life are supposed to be accomplished by one persona s fast as a group of people. You cant become a doctor sitting in a library all day, every day, for several years, and expect to have the same rate of progression as someone who goes to school. You can't paint a house at the same speed solo as a group of people painting the same house at the same time. You cant...well, you get the idea. Yet on these boards I see people metaphorically beating this issue to death that they want to solo incarnates at the same rate as groups do. Well, THAT IS JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! TLDR: If you want Incarnate powers, you gona have to do trials for it. |
Why change to this now?
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I'm fine with this too. In fact, I'd be very happy with more of these mini-yet-epic arcs to solo. |
Originally Posted by LISAR
Double posting here.
I was wondering if any of the forumites who support casual progression would be opposed if Mender Ramiel's arc (including the Trapdoor fight) was used as reference for the bare minimum difficulty for casual incarnate progress. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Honestly, I suspect the ideawiht the auras and such is to pay fr what you want, and not jut buy everything. They'e relativey cheap if you think of it that way.
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Originally Posted by Necrotron
Trials can be fun in moderation, and moderation is exactly what I intend to take them in. I did two Lambs, one Beef, and one Key Lime Pie a couple of days ago, I did the weekly strike target yesterday, and I may do some more today if the mood takes me. Or, I may go play another game and charge up to people so I can smash grenades into their faces. While drunk. As long as it's fun, I'll play; I absolutely, resolutely refuse to grind.
With all of the rewards combined from the above trialling (inf-to-IXP, shards-to-threads, notice-to-threads, merits, salvage tables) I have managed to get myself a tier two Interface, a tier one Judgement, enough IXP to unlock both slots and still end up with more influence than I started with. That's perfect. The solo rewards path is most certainly broken as all hell, and I feel for people who dislike teaming. I don't like how expensive the Ascension Armor is, but I accept that it's very much an Incarnate reward. On principle, tying costumes to end-game rewards of that magnitude is not something I am a fan of, but the costumes have been designed to be Incarnate-related from the start. Now, having said all that, gating the auras and emotes behind Astral merits is absurd. In my "take it as it comes" pace, I cannot spare so many merits on things so trivial, and yet they are genuinely good costume pieces that I may want. I spend as much time inside the tailor as the next man, but I won't spend ten Astrals on any generic aura, costume piece or emote. The thinking of the developers is clear as day to me. They had these new path auras and emotes, were in the middle of finishing Freedom, and wanted to bulk up I20.5 a bit, so they added them into the Astral and Empyrean vendors while they were there. I'd much rather put some Paragon Points towards the auras, but until Freedom launches, there is no effective way of selling them to us without putting them into a Super Booster. I feel their pain, as small Boosters (like the Party Pack) are derided, while Super Boosters carry the expectations of costume change emotes, auras and a special themed power. I won't spend merits on the new path auras and emotes, but when Freedom launches, I have faith that Paragon will make them available there. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I would definitely prefer it it was at least on the level of that arc, I love those missions. In fact somewhat special mechanics in those is what got me psyched about the incarnate content in the first place. I think it was Bill Z who suggested that the 'no AV' option in the difficulty settings could be ignored also. I'd be OK with that too.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Double posting here.
I was wondering if any of the forumites who support casual progression would be opposed if Mender Ramiel's arc (including the Trapdoor fight) was used as reference for the bare minimum difficulty for casual incarnate progress. |
This is bad design. Gradual rewards are better than huge lumps all at once, because people will accept getting gradual rewards gradually. The way it is set up now, you get nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,no thing,nothing,nothing,OMGTHATSAMAZING,nothing,noth ing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothin g,nothing,nothing,nothing,HOLYCRAPIAMGODHERE,nothi ng,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing. As a reward structure, it is moronic. The only sensible thing to do is burn through to get to whatever you want as fast as possible, because there is absolutely no reinforcement during the process at all.
What I want is a well designed endgame system. The kind where I can get on and play as I would like and on occasion see some new content as I grow out of the old stuff, but generally, just play and see an improvement - no matter how slight. As it stand now, you have a choice between "do this specific content" or "keep pushing Sisyphus", neither of which is enjoyable.
The slots have different types of benefit and because they do different players perceive their benefits radically differently. Some players think interface is very useful and worth upgrading, some players think it isn't all that impressive. Some don't like using Lore pets at all, and the more active your character is in play the more intrusive sending mastermind orders to them becomes. The two OMG powers are probably Judgment and Destiny, and Destiny gains strength as its upgraded: its benefit improves as you can have its strength up for higher percentages of the time. Even Judgment starts off with base damage and then upgrades (optionally) to critical bonus damage.
The system also moderates choices. For people who want a blizzard of options to min/max, there is the invention system as you mention. The fact that it does have that level of complexity is something you consider "bad" but that's because you assume that wasn't its intent: its intent was to offer that level of choice to players that wanted that level of choice, in a way that players that *didn't* want that choice could ignore most options and still get significant benefit. The incarnate system offers less choices than the invention system, but more than a purely linear end game progress system would have. There's three main choices you get in the incarnate system: first, which slots to open in what order. You have some limited control over that. Second, which slots to actually fill and upgrade with powers, which, separate from unlocking the slots, you have full control over. And finally, which "track" of power for each slot you wish to take, and how far to take it.
At the beginning, rewards come fairly fast. You're unlocking and slotting a slot in only a couple of trials each. Up to tier 2 progress is pretty fast relative to other kinds of progress like leveling. Its only tier 3 and tier 4 that slows down. Those slots also, excepting level shift, tend to slow down their incremental benefits.
Why not make the system the way you think its supposed to be: gradual progress and gradual benefit from the very beginning, rather than fast progress in the beginning and decelerated progress at the higher levels? Also deliberate: the intent was to make an end game system that, unlike most, frontloads the benefits so that the average player didn't have to grind the end game excessively to see any benefit at all. They would get *most* of the benefit up front, while leaving a smaller percentage of the total benefit of the system available to players that actually wanted to pursue long term earning progress. The other players could bail out at earlier levels. The presumption many people make is that the system is intended for everyone to get everything: its not. If you want to do less, you can still get a lot out of the system. If you want to do more, you can get more, but not astronomically more.
I consider this specific aspect of the system to be one of its distinguishing features relative to most MMO end games, and a feature that I think is singularly appropriate for City of Heroes. Given the opportunity I will quibble the details. I think the option trees should not have narrowed at tier 4. I think the power effects are not sufficiently well organized. I think Judgment could have been a little better balanced in terms of its progression upward. I think level shift should not have been as backloaded. But if we're talking about the fundamental design of the system in terms of how it paces and apportions rewards, I think that's actually the part the devs got exactly right, and in a non-trivial way.
The design you're asking for, and you think represents better design, I personally think in total wouldn't work for this game at all, or if it did would be too similar to the invention system itself to be interesting on its own. Certain aspects of it would be doable: you could make more advancement tiers in the system to break up the jumps in power to some degree, but that would have to be done in a way that didn't offer too much of a blizzard of choices. That's tricky to do in a way that is meaningful. You could extend the long-term path of progress, but then you'd be spending a lot of time developing the part of the system outside the core elements of the powers.
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