Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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True, but all of the rewards from that end-game content can be retrieved from other means. Whereas Incarante end-game rewards cannot be gained, reasonably, outside of the trials.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
The end-game has ALWAYS been multiplayer-only, FYI. Hamidon, Mothership Raid, LRSF and STF has always been team-required.
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Hami-O's couldn't for quite a while. And the same is true for the trial rewards anyhow. (the only excpetion bein the Ascendant Radiance costume pieces)
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Originally Posted by Clouded
True, but all of the rewards from that end-game content can be retrieved from other means. Whereas Incarante end-game rewards cannot be gained, reasonably, outside of the trials.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Hami-Os were tradeable. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Hami-O's couldn't for quite a while. And the same is true for the trial rewards anyhow. (the only excpetion bein the Ascendant Radiance costume pieces)
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Yes, the new rewards cannot be traded or earned elsewhere which is poor design. That's the point many people are making.
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Sure they can be earned elsewher: Shards>Threads conversion and the Apex/Tin Mage TF.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Hami-Os were tradeable.
Yes, the new rewards cannot be traded or earned elsewhere which is poor design. That's the point many people are making. |
There's also the notice>40 threads conversion.
They can also be traded within the same account at a fee (using the merit vendors)
Now, you can argue whether or not the conversion rates are reaonable (I'd say they're probably a bit too harsh) but they do exist.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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K. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Sure they can be earned elsewher: Shards>Threads conversion and the Apex/Tin Mage TF.
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The shard conversion is ridiculous and not reasonable by any means.
APEX/Tin Mage are TFs, meaning teamed content. I.E. not for small teams or soloists. Obvious stuff here.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
There's also the notice>40 threads conversion.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
They can also be traded within the same account at a fee (using the merit vendors)
Now, you can argue whether or not the conversion rates are reaonable (I'd say they're probably a bit too harsh) but they do exist. |
How does that help small teams or people wanting to solo?
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By "elswhere" I assumed you mean "outside trials". The shard/thread conversion alone is probably unreasonable, but combined with running apex/tin mag and The WST's it's not at all unreasonable. (even a relatively conservative run would earn you 110 threads a week, excluding shard drops) |
Originally Posted by Clouded
K.
The shard conversion is ridiculous and not reasonable by any means. APEX/Tin Mage are TFs, meaning teamed content. I.E. not for small teams or soloists. Obvious stuff here. Again, team content. The conversion rates are more than unreasonable. All of your 'solutions' require more teamed content. How does that help small teams or people wanting to solo? |
The hami-o's also required teamed content to be performed. So what's the deal?
Likewise many of the accolades (that also provides a tangible benefit, 15% HP is nothing to sneeze at)
The precedent for requiring team to acquire content is there. This is nothing new. It's always been that way.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Or you could just buy them off some one who had performed the team content.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The hami-o's also required teamed content to be performed. So what's the deal?
Likewise many of the accolades (that also provides a tangible benefit, 15% HP is nothing to sneeze at) The precedent for requiring team to acquire content is there. This is nothing new. It's always been that way. |
Using inf that you earned solo or on small teams.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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That still requires team content.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Or you could just buy them off some one who had performed the team content.
Using inf that you earned solo or on small teams. |
And besides, Hami-O's came before the market.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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A player could get Hami-O's without ever teaming.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
That still requires team content.
And besides, Hami-O's came before the market. |
/b I'm selling <insert Hami-O> send tell with offer!
/t player name, I offer <insert inf here>
Players trade, and the solo'er gets his Hami-O without ever having to team up.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I don't need to learn how to farm cereal crops to buy a box of Praetor Wheats.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
That still requires team content.
And besides, Hami-O's came before the market. |
A person doesn't need to run a Hami Raid to buy a Hami-O.
I can do my job/play solo or with a small group of friends and take the money/influence to buy a delicious Cole Administration-approved way to start the day/Hamidon Origin Enhancement.
I think the heart of the matter of all this is that the vast majority of players want progressive rewards in a reasonable time frame while having fun. Progressive rewards are essentially ways to improve our characters and make them more powerful. Fun is subjective to the individual as that person may find enjoyment spending most of their time in trials, small teams or soloing.
Currently, the way the Incarnate system is designed, only those who enjoy trials have the ability to receive progressive rewards. If you dont run trials, you will not be able to improve your character at a reasonable rate. I do think this is a bad design considering how CoH has developed and evolved over the years. The game never centered around trials/raids yet now in the Incarnate system, content and character development is gated. I dont see the logic of forming a game for seven years one way then changing the dynamics in such a radical fashion.
Now, some people are saying there is plenty of new content for those who dont like the iTrials. Not really. As I said at the very beginning, the vast majority of players want progressive rewards, which ultimately means the end game. Most, if not all, of the so called end game is now all about Incarnate powers. All the other content affects earlier levels and as a result has no impact upon collecting rewards at the end.
There are others who say if you dont run trials, you dont need Incarnate powers. Well, technically, those who run the trials dont need them either. All it does is gate content and make the trials easier. Which is ironic since the raiding community often wants challenging content but by over gearing their characters, ends up trivializing the raids that was once very difficult (proving again, what people really want is to be able to progress their characters at the end).
CoH has always tried to accommodate the soloist and small team player. You can see it by the past content. I dont think it is unreasonable for the playerbase, who has evolved with such a variety of playstyles, to expect the devs to explore and produce Incarnate systems for those types of players, as well as those who enjoy running trials.
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Ya, no one is arguing otherwise. But you seem to keep ignoring that the REWARDS portion of our rebuttals. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
The precedent for requiring team to acquire content is there. This is nothing new. It's always been that way.
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The REWARDS were not locked soloely behind team content. That's the difference with the Incarnate Rewards.
I might as well throw in my 2 cents about Keyes. Granted, I only played it once, during the beta... so if this have changed to make it easier/less confusing since then, let me know.
The problem with the Keyes trial is:
1. The trail is way too complex. People love to rush the trials... and because BAF and Lam are quick and relatively simple... people are understandably irritated. This also means that the confusion new people experience with the trail is multiplied by 10. When you don't know what's going on.. and you're pressured to accomplish certain tasks quickly... it sucks. Not only that, but even explaining the tasks... it makes it difficult to understand what they mean... simply because... it remains a vague concept until one actually experiences it. For example, I received a Temp item and had no idea where or how to use it. For a while I actually thought the item was causing the random pulses because I got hit by one and died shortly after getting that temp.
2. The rewards you get for the trails are GREATLY undervalued. I enjoy a challenge, but if I'm not rewarded for it... I fail to see what the point is... other than that fist initial challenge of completing it. Because we managed to win on that run in Beta, I no longer feel the need to even bother with it.
I dare say this is more useless than a Hami raid. At least then you have people who are dedicated to explaining what needs to be done... the tasks are relatively simple, and people (most of the time) don't try to rush it. Hell, you even get a better reward at the end for your effort. At least if you don't get the HO you want, you can sell it for a good amount of inf. I guarantee you if Hami raids offered Incarnate rewards (threads merits or otherwise) people would gladly do it over Keyes.
Keyes is not a trail, it's a Task Force disguised as a trail and it's so not worth the effort.
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Yes they were. TF commander.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Ya, no one is arguing otherwise. But you seem to keep ignoring that the REWARDS portion of our rebuttals.
The REWARDS were not locked soloely behind team content. That's the difference with the Incarnate Rewards. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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And here we come down to the crux of hte matte: What is "Reasonable progression"?|
Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
I think the heart of the matter of all this is that the vast majority of players want progressive rewards in a reasonable time frame while having fun. Progressive rewards are essentially ways to improve our characters and make them more powerful. Fun is subjective to the individual as that person may find enjoyment spending most of their time in trials, small teams or soloing.
Currently, the way the Incarnate system is designed, only those who enjoy trials have the ability to receive progressive rewards. If you dont run trials, you will not be able to improve your character at a reasonable rate. I do think this is a bad design considering how CoH has developed and evolved over the years. The game never centered around trials/raids yet now in the Incarnate system, content and character development is gated. I dont see the logic of forming a game for seven years one way then changing the dynamics in such a radical fashion. Now, some people are saying there is plenty of new content for those who dont like the iTrials. Not really. As I said at the very beginning, the vast majority of players want progressive rewards, which ultimately means the end game. Most, if not all, of the so called end game is now all about Incarnate powers. All the other content affects earlier levels and as a result has no impact upon collecting rewards at the end. There are others who say if you dont run trials, you dont need Incarnate powers. Well, technically, those who run the trials dont need them either. All it does is gate content and make the trials easier. Which is ironic since the raiding community often wants challenging content but by over gearing their characters, ends up trivializing the raids that was once very difficult (proving again, what people really want is to be able to progress their characters at the end). CoH has always tried to accommodate the soloist and small team player. You can see it by the past content. I dont think it is unreasonable for the playerbase, who has evolved with such a variety of playstyles, to expect the devs to explore and produce Incarnate systems for those types of players, as well as those who enjoy running trials. |
As it stands I'd say the non-trial team path (WST's, rewards from TF's, Apex/Tin Mage) offers a reasonable progression. Not neccessarily an ideal one, but at least one that's reasonably doable. It would take a couple of months of relatively dedicated playing, but it's doable. Mind, it could stand to be eased a bit more, but it's "reasonable" at least.
"Hermit mode" however, isn't reasonable. Now, I'm not certain it SHOULD be, but I think there's certainly a reasonable argument for impoving the rewards.
The easiest way to make it non-abusable would probably to make a strictly time-locked path for soloers: Say.... An astral merit rather than an A-merit for completing a tip mission. (the size of the reward is up for debate obviously) basically make it a daily or weekly task that can be accomplished solo and earsn you a noticeable progression, but one that is slower than doing Apex/Tin Mage or trials.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I understand your point and you probably caught the guy using hyperbole. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Yes they were. TF commander.
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But comparing an accolade, which if I remember correctly, was specifically designed to be very minor by design and incarnate powers is bit of a stretch.
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I suppose reasonable time is determined by dev testing and player feedback. I do think the current system is unreasonable though. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
cut long post
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Here's an interesting question for you. Why does the solo path or small team path need to be significantly slower than the trial path? Why does the trial path need to have incentives to make people want to run them?
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To the folks saying making solo/team content is difficult: I'm of the mind that they can EASILY make a solo/small teams path that fits fine with the current trials. If they don't want folks ignoring the trials, they can easily put in timer lockouts on such content.|
Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
I suppose reasonable time is determined by dev testing and player feedback. I do think the current system is unreasonable though.
Here's an interesting question for you. Why does the solo path or small team path need to be significantly slower than the trial path? Why does the trial path need to have incentives to make people want to run them? |
The devs of this game aren't dumb.
Let's give them a little bit more credit please.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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So you'd be fine with something that can be done in an hour for the reward. Cause you do know that Apex and Tin Mage can be completed in less than an hour now, right?
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Originally Posted by Arilou
And here we come down to the crux of hte matte: What is "Reasonable progression"?
As it stands I'd say the non-trial team path (WST's, rewards from TF's, Apex/Tin Mage) offers a reasonable progression. Not neccessarily an ideal one, but at least one that's reasonably doable. It would take a couple of months of relatively dedicated playing, but it's doable. Mind, it could stand to be eased a bit more, but it's "reasonable" at least. "Hermit mode" however, isn't reasonable. Now, I'm not certain it SHOULD be, but I think there's certainly a reasonable argument for impoving the rewards. The easiest way to make it non-abusable would probably to make a strictly time-locked path for soloers: Say.... An astral merit rather than an A-merit for completing a tip mission. (the size of the reward is up for debate obviously) basically make it a daily or weekly task that can be accomplished solo and earsn you a noticeable progression, but one that is slower than doing Apex/Tin Mage or trials. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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You can't go moving the goal posts now. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Yes they were. TF commander.
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We were discussing end game content and the rewards. You named certain raids and TFs and I rebutted.
Accolades are a different ball of wax. They are not a 10 'level' character progression.
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Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
I understand your point and you probably caught the guy using hyperbole.
But comparing an accolade, which if I remember correctly, was specifically designed to be very minor by design and incarnate powers is bit of a stretch. |
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I'm not exactly sure why this comment was directed at me. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
To the folks saying making solo/team content is difficult: I'm of the mind that they can EASILY make a solo/small teams path that fits fine with the current trials. If they don't want folks ignoring the trials, they can easily put in timer lockouts on such content.
The devs of this game aren't dumb. Let's give them a little bit more credit please. |
I never said making solo and small team content was more difficult. Heck, I would even argue making trials takes more effort and resources due to the greater ccomplexity in balancing it.
I'm trying to understand why players are so convinced and conditioned to believe that raids/trials are the only way to make an end game. The end should cater to all forms of playstyles like it always has been.
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(Looks at your start date. Looks at my start date.)|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The end-game has ALWAYS been multiplayer-only, FYI.
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My I is just fine, thanks.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Hamidon, Mothership Raid, LRSF and STF has always been team-required.
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However, the actual first 50 levels of this supposedly multiplayer game do not require teams. If anything, with the addition of systems like:
- police scanner/newspaper/tip missions to fill any gaps between contact-given story mission content (no random street-hunting for mobs, no teaming to run other player's missions for XP, etc.),
- the Ouroboros system to let you experience older content without looking for another player with the low-level missions you want to run,
- the ability to autocomplete or abandon missions you might otherwise have to scrape together a team to complete (Psychic Clockwork King mission that sat in my queue for six months, I'm talking to you),
- difficulty sliders so you don't have to pad your team to achieve the desired difficulty and reward for your effort, and
- the auction house and invention systems letting you buy materials for and craft IO sets that diminished the need for things like Hamidon raids for precious Hami-Os.
...the game is easily ten times more solo-friendly today than it was at launch. But expecting that solo-friendly nature to continue further is now unreasonable, childish, and demanding. I just don't buy that.
Honestly, I think 75-80% of the grousing about the Incarnate system would evaporate if Paragon would just say, "The aura to fart rainbows and other non-Incarnate auras and emotes currently tied to the Incarnate system will be available on the in-game store when it goes live." Incarnaters get it for free and a few months ahead of non-Incarnaters, but other players, players who might resent being forced into participating in the Incarnate system they would otherwise ignore, can eventually pay for it in Paragon Points. Everyone goes on their merry way farting rainbows.
On Liberty:
Aardwolf - level 50 claws/invulnerability scrapper
Anchor - level 50 level gravity/forcefield controller
Dr. Dusk - level 50 mercenaries/dark miasma mastermind
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I think one of the reasons is that the trials, by their design, require a minimum number people of running them (and to continue running them after new issue fever) in order for them to work. So I suspect there's an element of trying to ensure that even people that'd prefer an alternate route are kept running the trials, just to keep the numbers up so that the whole thing doesn't collapse.|
Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
Here's an interesting question for you. Why does the solo path or small team path need to be significantly slower than the trial path? Why does the trial path need to have incentives to make people want to run them?
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That is to say, if there's another viable route then some people will opt for that instead of (rather than as well as) the trials, and even the ones doing both are now splitting time between the two, which means fewer people running the trials at any given time, which means lower chance of getting the requisite number of people at one time, which makes it more likely that someone shows up, can't find enough people, so goes and does the alternate route instead (and this happens often enough that they just default to the alternate path in future), which means fewer people running the trials at any given blah blah vicious circle and now trials are a rare occurrance, making it hard to grind to the levels the incarnate system demands.
You kinda see it already on some of the quieter servers, especially outside of prime time - people showing up in Pocket D or RWZ and finding two other people there, and so none of them get their trial. Of course, if that ends up happening anyway, that's a definite argument for 'reasonable' alternatives that are less reliant on volume of players.
Personally I'm not sure it was terribly wise to have a high player volume requirement on an endgame system that is designed to be run so repeatedly to get anywhere; not on a MMO that has our modest sized playerbase spread across quite a few servers - even just getting 8 people for a particular task can be challenging (depending on time, server, and task). But here we are.
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That's me. I don't like the incarnate system (I just click a random thing on the "select" window at the end) and just want the costume/aura/emote goodies. Currently, this is the only way to get them.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
If the devs are forcing people to 'raid' because if there was an alternative, not enough people would be 'raiding' then some where along the line they've failed at key game play design rules.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
No, you're misunderstanding what carrot and stick means
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."