Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I returned to the game specifically because of this new 'raid' content. I am a WoW refugee and find it delightfully easy to just jump into one of these 'raids'. Such a low stress environment too. People are generally friendly, the runs don't take long, and progression is steady. The fact that you can actually fail at Keyes makes it interesting. The fact that you can succeed at it with a PUG, makes it fun.
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You made some great observations. |
Originally Posted by Biowraith
snipped great response.
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Trials aren't inherently better than solo or small group content. If it were, they would stand on their own merits. They wouldn't need to reward people with better stuff. That's also not saying there are people who truly do enjoy running trials. But even that I think is secondary.
The primary goal for the vast majority of players is to be able to progress their characters at a reasonable pace. Thats why people always predominantly take the path of least resistance. Soloing, grouping, raiding is just a means to the ultimate goal. Sure people have preferences but in the end most players generally want the same thing.
The idea of trials isn't inherently better but I think I understand why devs go that route. We all know of someone who sticks around a game only because their friends play it. If a player is invested in the game community, they are less likely to quit. So the popular method is devising end content that "forces" players to play together hoping by doing so, it will foster community.
The problem with CoH is, historically the game wasn't designed that way. It was designed to let players play as they wished and afforded them ways to progress in multiple ways. Again I don't see the rationalization of altering how the game functioned after seven years. If this game were like that game with night elves, it'd be different since that game from the onset made it clear the endgame is raiding.
And like you said at the end, with a smaller population, isn't it more viable for CoH to continue to provide end game content for those who don't want to run trials?
This is a long thread. Apologies if this is ground that has already been gone over.
I have a question that cuts to the very heart of what I see as wrong about the way the Incarnate system, and many MMOs, operate.
"Why not just give a solo path that is just as fast?"
The knee-jerk response to that is predictable.
"If they did, everyone would do that path and not team."
That answer should raise a gigantic red flag.
If we have to twist peoples' arms to make them team, maybe team-based content isn't what people actually want.
See, I can appreciate that some people enjoy teaming and some people enjoy soloing. But the fact of the matter is, the people who don't enjoy teaming are forced to team, essentially so that the people who do enjoy teaming have someone to team with. And they don't much care if their teammates want to be there or not. I find something deeply wrong about that. It rings like exploitation to me.
Some might say "You want to solo, don't play a MMO. Go play a single player game."
OK. Think about that. Everyone who likes to solo quits. That takes them out of the pool of people available to team. How is that any different than if you gave them their own solo tract?
The truth is this: Even people who love to solo, team occasionally, even regularly. Giving everyone the equal option to do so, and not feel like they're getting screwed by their preference, is what's best for everyone.
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Hasn't the game always had a raiding element? I remember being frustrated because I couldn't get into hamidon raids, rikti raids, Task Forces, etc. I could run from door to door, by myself. That got old. Thank goodness they've found a way to get folks interested in group content. I just hope they are able to sustain that interest through new adventures.
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Because they *are* (supposition, but I would bet almost any amount of money) going to do something non-trial related for Incarnate progression. However, end-game multi-team content is the *one* area that CoH has been almost completely missing for the 7 years of it's existence, so they're going to add some. It's not the end of the world or representative of a complete paradigm shift. They're simply adding a type of content that hasn't been well-represented in the game in the past, and has not only been requested, but cited as "reason for leaving" due to it's absence on exit surveys.
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Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
You made some great observations.
Trials aren't inherently better than solo or small group content. If it were, they would stand on their own merits. They wouldn't need to reward people with better stuff. That's also not saying there are people who truly do enjoy running trials. But even that I think is secondary. The primary goal for the vast majority of players is to be able to progress their characters at a reasonable pace. Thats why people always predominantly take the path of least resistance. Soloing, grouping, raiding is just a means to the ultimate goal. Sure people have preferences but in the end most players generally want the same thing. The idea of trials isn't inherently better but I think I understand why devs go that route. We all know of someone who sticks around a game only because their friends play it. If a player is invested in the game community, they are less likely to quit. So the popular method is devising end content that "forces" players to play together hoping by doing so, it will foster community. The problem with CoH is, historically the game wasn't designed that way. It was designed to let players play as they wished and afforded them ways to progress in multiple ways. Again I don't see the rationalization of altering how the game functioned after seven years. If this game were like that game with night elves, it'd be different since that game from the onset made it clear the endgame is raiding. And like you said at the end, with a smaller population, isn't it more viable for CoH to continue to provide end game content for those who don't want to run trials? |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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That's great and I hope the devs continue to provide trials for people to run. But I hope they don't ignore or neglect the solo and small group aspect which has been the hallmark of CoH for seven years. |
Originally Posted by Gryphster
I returned to the game specifically because of this new 'raid' content. I am a WoW refugee and find it delightfully easy to just jump into one of these 'raids'. Such a low stress environment too. People are generally friendly, the runs don't take long, and progression is steady. The fact that you can actually fail at Keyes makes it interesting. The fact that you can succeed at it with a PUG, makes it fun.
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Off on a tangent here but I sometimes wonder if CoH has a laid back community because it didn't focus on raiding? I sometimes wonder if a heavy focus on raiding actually can be a detriment to an online community? Probably a lot of factors that causes this but something I've pondered in the past.
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Again I think this is where we differ on what we consider the end game. You are saying the end game is multi-team trials. I'm saying end game is the ability to continue to progress your character. Could it be that people quit because in the past they hit 50 and could no longer progress their character? Could it be that players are so conditioned to raiding that they automatically equate character progression with raiding even though it doesn't have to be that way? |
Originally Posted by Furio
Because they *are* (supposition, but I would bet almost any amount of money) going to do something non-trial related for Incarnate progression. However, end-game multi-team content is the *one* area that CoH has been almost completely missing for the 7 years of it's existence, so they're going to add some. It's not the end of the world or representative of a complete paradigm shift. They're simply adding a type of content that hasn't been well-represented in the game in the past, and has not only been requested, but cited as "reason for leaving" due to it's absence on exit surveys.
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Let me make this clear. The devs should make trials. But I am saying that should not be the focal point of their end game.
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Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
Again I think this is where we differ on what we consider the end game. You are saying the end game is multi-team trials. I'm saying end game is the ability to continue to progress your character. Could it be that people quit because in the past they hit 50 and could no longer progress their character? Could it be that players are so conditioned to raiding that they automatically equate character progression with raiding even though it doesn't have to be that way?
Let me make this clear. The devs should make trials. But I am saying that should not be the focal point of their end game. |
That is *not* what I'm saying. I'm not saying "end-game=trials". I'm saying that end-game multi-team content is something that this game did not have. We have missions, crafting, PvP, Bases (granted, both of those need work, but they're are here) zone events, giant monsters, markets. We're *very thin* on what the trials represent, so they're patching that hole, so that the game has more to offer to people. And, from a very realistic stand-point, end-game trials/raids/whatever *are* something the avg MMO player expects.
Now, like I said, I fully expect there to be alternate Incarnate progression down the line a bit, as that's what the Devs do...they know the game, and their players and have a track record of listening to us (and honestly, anticipating). But for some reason people forget that.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Yes they were. TF commander.
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I happen to think comparing the tiny boost of TF commander to a crashless nuke, free procs in every power, pets that can solo a pylon, or perma-mezz protection in a 40ft radius is a stretch.
(Unrelated to quoted poster: I also think that if there is a choke point of continuous silliness in these discussions, its the assertion that the incarnate powers "only really matter" in incarnate content. A lot of time has been spent debating whether people "need" a power, which is missing the forest for the trees. The real question is whether people "benefit," and how much. In the case of the incarnate powers the answers are "yes" and a "whole, whole lot." In fact, more than any single proc, IO, or ability you can acquirre after level 50.)
In any case, none of the TFs required for TF commander are level 50.
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It is tangential, and was discussed in another thread. (Essentially, it was pointed out that typical raid social interaction is, "LF Raid. Leaders instructions. Kthxbai." and how that mentality is not something we should be encouraging considering it has not been prevalent in the game in the past.)|
Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
Off on a tangent here but I sometimes wonder if CoH has a laid back community because it didn't focus on raiding? I sometimes wonder if a heavy focus on raiding actually can be a detriment to an online community? Probably a lot of factors that causes this but something I've pondered in the past.
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Back on topic:
Trials are massive events, and therefore require masses of people, which in turn generates a lot of buzz and excitement between people. It makes sense from a marketing standpoint that the first wave of content based around their new end-game system would be designed in such a manner that would involve a large number of players at one time.
I am going to choose to have faith in the Devs that a solo/small-teams progression option is in the pipeline. Given that it will most likely take longer to get through (since the amount of time something takes is usually inversely proportional to the amount of players going through it), I expect that it will also take longer to test. So it may be a while before it is introduced. But, if for no other reason but my own sanity and peace of mind, I am going to say that it will be here eventually.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Originally Posted by Furio
That is *not* what I'm saying. I'm not saying "end-game=trials". I'm saying that end-game multi-team content is something that this game did not have. We have missions, crafting, PvP, Bases (granted, both of those need work, but they're are here) zone events, giant monsters, markets. We're *very thin* on what the trials represent, so they're patching that hole, so that the game has more to offer to people. And, from a very realistic stand-point, end-game trials/raids/whatever *are* something the avg MMO player expects.
Now, like I said, I fully expect there to be alternate Incarnate progression down the line a bit, as that's what the Devs do...they know the game, and their players and have a track record of listening to us (and honestly, anticipating). But for some reason people forget that. |
Here is the rub on this. Very few people are particularly upset that trials were added to the game. I actually enjoy the trials on their own merits outside of the reward system. But I feel that basing an entire, unique reward structure on trials is a huge misstep.
Compare the trials to TFs. TFs exist in the background. You can do them if you want to; they are always there. But they are not a leveling structure in themselves. And we have certainly never had a situation where running the STF, ITF and Dr Q over and over was the path to a huge boost in power and told, "don't worry, we don't have the resources to release the whole system at once, but Khan, Apex and Tin Mage are coming soon!"
Some people are going to frame this as a "if you are a real fan, you'd power though the lack of content without complaints." Unfortunately, being bored is a healthy reason to stop playing a game. I did this exact thing to this game's competitors. And playing a game anyway isn't a sign of "maturity" as some people have put it, it's a sign of addiction. So I play other games here and there and work on personal projects and hope this one gets fixed. I use the word "fixed" because I don't consider this just a lack of content issue. It's broken because the whole system hinges on content that can't be delivered, when that never needed to be the case.
I do still like this game and respect its developers. This is not the same as agreeing with where this game is going or making a promise to continue sending it money.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Here is the rub on this. Very few people are particularly upset that trials were added to the game. I actually enjoy the trials on their own merits outside of the reward system. But I feel that basing an entire, unique reward structure on trials is a huge misstep.
Compare the trials to TFs. TFs exist in the background. You can do them if you want to; they are always there. But they are not a leveling structure in themselves. And we have certainly never had a situation where running the STF, ITF and Dr Q over and over was the path to a huge boost in power and told, "don't worry, we don't have the resources to release the whole system at once, but Khan, Apex and Tin Mage are coming soon!" Some people are going to frame this as a "if you are a real fan, you'd power though the lack of content without complaints." Unfortunately, being bored is a healthy reason to stop playing a game. I did this exact thing to this game's competitors. And playing a game anyway isn't a sign of "maturity" as some people have put it, it's a sign of addiction. So I play other games here and there and work on personal projects and hope this one gets fixed. I use the word "fixed" because I don't consider this just a lack of content issue. It's broken because the whole system hinges on content that can't be delivered, when that never needed to be the case. I do still like this game and respect its developers. This is not the same as agreeing with where this game is going or making a promise to continue sending it money. |
Which is fine. My POV on it is that the end-game being trial focused is a temporary situation. They're doing them first simply because we didn't have them, (which stood out as a glaring omission in the breadth of content we have, especially considering the impending Freedom) and they're easier/faster to produce than the amount of content that a more traditional CoH-style path will take. The game isn't "going" anywhere, IMO, they're simply adding something that people have been asking for, (as always in development), as quickly as resources and priorities allow. BTW, I'm including the Alt-Inc path in that "something".
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Some of those folks aren't really interested in the group content, but rather the non-group non-incarnate content that is locked in behind it as an incentive to run the trials.|
Originally Posted by Gryphster
Thank goodness they've found a way to get folks interested in group content.
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Sure, they run the trials, but they aren't really interested in the trials per se. They're a chore that they do to get the rainbow trail.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Ding! That's me.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Sure, they run the trials, but they aren't really interested in the trials per se. They're a chore that they do to get the rainbow trail.
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--NT
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But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
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QFT|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Some of those folks aren't really interested in the group content, but rather the non-group non-incarnate content that is locked in behind it as an incentive to run the trials.
Sure, they run the trials, but they aren't really interested in the trials per se. They're a chore that they do to get the rainbow trail. |
Though I was after the Ice Block costume change emote, and the Frost and Electric path auras.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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/qft
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Originally Posted by winterminal
enter the trials and the content (costumes, auras, etc.) now locked behind their merits. If you want this stuff, there is only one way to get it, and it is going to take a lot longer than 30 seconds. The player is left with one option of game-play-mechanic by which to get this new stuff: Play the trials. Suddenly, the player's experience has been diminished; to get what they want, they can no longer choose what avenue of game-play they wish to pursue. Thus, you have your "force."
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"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
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Because there's time-investment inherent in setting up a team.
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Originally Posted by Spectral_Hunter
I suppose reasonable time is determined by dev testing and player feedback. I do think the current system is unreasonable though.
Here's an interesting question for you. Why does the solo path or small team path need to be significantly slower than the trial path? Why does the trial path need to have incentives to make people want to run them? |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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So if a league takes one hour to complete an iTrial (30 min to setup, 30 min to run), a solo player should receive the same reward for playing for one hour in a hypothetical solo incarnate system? I have a feeling you don't mean this.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Because there's time-investment inherent in setting up a team.
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Actually its getting smaller, and that's the game. If you want it to get bigger maybe you need to start figuring out how to buy out the store early and more often than you planned
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You'll need to get used to it - it ain't going away, and it's only going to get bigger
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I think this is the issue here. I think many people saying "No" to solo Incarnate content know that if you make a solo path there are going to be a lot less people doing the trials. Simple as that.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If we have to twist peoples' arms to make them team, maybe team-based content isn't what people actually want.
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I think there is also the issue that it is much harder to make "hard" solo content. The reason being that there is less variance in what a typical team can do than what a typical character can do. If they build solo Incarnate content there are individuals that will power through it in no time at all, (probably by repeating the easiest bits ad nauseum) and then go , "whats next?"
That's not an argument for why it shouldn't be done, just for why its harder to do.
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Some people do want it:|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If we have to twist peoples' arms to make them team, maybe team-based content isn't what people actually want. |
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Originally Posted by Gryphster
I returned to the game specifically because of this new 'raid' content. I am a WoW refugee and find it delightfully easy to just jump into one of these 'raids'. Such a low stress environment too. People are generally friendly, the runs don't take long, and progression is steady. The fact that you can actually fail at Keyes makes it interesting. The fact that you can succeed at it with a PUG, makes it fun.
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I'm all for any players inflating CoHs sub numbers, so in that sense I'm ok with the iTrials, but as soon as we get a viable small team/solo Incarnate path, I'll have done my last BAF.
Eco.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I think this is the potential problem with whatever they do at this point. If they are worried that small group/solo content will empty out the trial pool of players, then they are right to be worried. Not only do plenty of people find the trials unpleasant, but the process of putting the trials together at all is a chore. If they produce a pleasant, enjoyable incarnate path, the trials will become a ghost-town.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I'm all for any players inflating CoHs sub numbers, so in that sense I'm ok with the iTrials, but as soon as we get a viable small team/solo Incarnate path, I'll have done my last BAF.
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Every new Trial, Incarnate slot or Incarnate power means the system is getting bigger |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually its getting smaller, and that's the game. If you want it to get bigger maybe you need to start figuring out how to buy out the store early and more often than you planned
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The Trials are the incarnate path - the whole system is designed around them - that isn't going to change.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
I think this is the potential problem with whatever they do at this point. If they are worried that small group/solo content will empty out the trial pool of players, then they are right to be worried. Not only do plenty of people find the trials unpleasant, but the process of putting the trials together at all is a chore. If they produce a pleasant, enjoyable incarnate path, the trials will become a ghost-town.
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And once I21 goes live, a lot of the new players who pick up subs will be used to multi-team endgame content from other games, so that's going to tip the population balance even further in the right direction.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I never said making solo and small team content was more difficult. Heck, I would even argue making trials takes more effort and resources due to the greater ccomplexity in balancing it.
I'm trying to understand why players are so convinced and conditioned to believe that raids/trials are the only way to make an end game. The end should cater to all forms of playstyles like it always has been.
Not directed at you.
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