Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass

Garielle · 07-07-2011 06:21 PM

A lot of players, myself included, express that we find repetitive grinding of the same content to be boring and undesirable. However, let's take a look at few facts of how a large segment of the community have chosen to utilize the existing game content and other systems.

First there were mission farms. We would find some mission that offered good XP or good salvage drops and put together teams to farm it repeatedly, never actually completing the mission objective, specifically so we could farm it again. For example, the Battle Maiden farm.

Then we got Newspaper Missions on the Villains side, and subsequently Radio Missions on the Hero side. Many players then ignored any contact missions that didn't offer some specific reward they were seeking and instead went from level 5-10ish nearly all the way to 50 with just the Newspaper/Radio missions. Missions, which are essentially all the same.

Then we got the ability to be as creative as we liked and create our own stories with the Mission Architect system. A large segment of the community used the system to create farming missions which didn't even try to pretend to actually have any story behind them.

Now it is easy for any of us to come up with anecdotal evidence saying, "Hey! I never did any of that stuff!" I could even, honestly, make that statement myself. However, take a look around, we are in the minority on that. Even if 100 people reply to this and say I am wrong, it would still be a vocal minority and not representative of the community as a whole. The developers, however, have access to statistical data that we do not. They see exactly what the majority of the players to spend their time doing while playing the game.

Yes, we can say that we hate grinding repetitive content until we are blue in the face, and it won't change one simple fact...actions speak louder than words. We, as a community, have acted, and the developers have heard us loud and clear.

- Garielle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme

I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".

Another_Fan · 07-07-2011 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

A new tune is being written with CoH: Freedom

That's a voice in the chorus.

rsclark · 07-07-2011 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilGeko

Why not just run them 'here and there' now and get the rewards when they come? Why burn yourself out chasing shinies?

Because one of the last things you unlock on each side of the incarnate path we currently have is the level shifts. For many non-uber characters, these level shifts are a necessary component to run the high end content enjoyably. Since each step of the endgame consists of this same kind of mass random death stuff, it only stands to reason that anything that comes out from now on can only be enhanced by having the shifts.

So, basically, to have any hope of getting the tiniest bit of enjoyment out of any future endgame content, I will need the level shifts. Once I get those, I stop running trials.

Golden Girl · 07-07-2011 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

So, basically, to have any hope of getting the tiniest bit of enjoyment out of any future endgame content, I will need the level shifts. Once I get those, I stop running trials.

But the future endgame content will be more Trials - that's what the shifts are for

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

rsclark · 07-07-2011 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

But the future endgame content will be more Trials - that's what the shifts are for

And maybe they will magically make one that is actually enjoyable. Currently their batting average is a big 000, but how long can that dismal record continue?

Golden Girl · 07-07-2011 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

That's a voice in the chorus.

It'll be a hit single

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Golden Girl · 07-07-2011 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

And maybe they will magically make one that is actually enjoyable. Currently their batting average is a big 000, but how long can that dismal record continue?

Well, as it's not true, it can't really continue, as it never started to begin with

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Another_Fan · 07-07-2011 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

It'll be a hit single

Every snowflake is speshul.

And aren't you sill planning on buying everything they can possibly offer ? I am sure if you buy as often as you post, that alone will put it over the top.

Spectral_Hunter · 07-07-2011 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garielle

A lot of players, myself included, express that we find repetitive grinding of the same content to be boring and undesirable...snip

All your post tells me is that most players want to be able to progress their characters and that is the primary goal. Content, trials, soloing, IOs...etc, are secondary to achieving that first goal. Now some people will say they like a particular style of play but my assertion is, players will go for the progressive rewards in spite of the content.

Levels 1-49, the best way to progress your character is to level up. So it is logical that people would take the easiest and most efficient ways to do so. That doesn't mean they particularly like the grinding they do.

At 50, before incarnates came out, there was really only one way to progress your character: IO sets. That was essentially the endgame for a very long time. But unlike incarnates, you could progress in a variety of ways and was never locked into a very specific path. Once incarnate powers came out, that became the end game progression.

The problem isn't iTrials. The problem is, it's the only reasonable way to earn progressive rewards at 50. In other MMOs, this is common but they make it clear from the very beginning that their end game will be raiding. CoH didn't. For a long period of time, players could achieve endgame progression using different playstyles. Now it is trials and trials alone. Had CoH been a raiding game from the onset, there wouldn't be any issues.

Now, the devs can continue to push trials and just trials. It's their right and their game. But as much as players want progressive rewards, each player also has a threshold on how much unsuitable content they are willing to grind.

The people who are complaining just want multiple paths. But the devs have been silent on the matter. All they have revealed is they are going to introduce more trials.

Arcanaville · 07-07-2011 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

Yeah but if you look at the quarterlys the melody really hits home.

I think I stated upthread, or maybe in another thread, that the game could likely go on running off just the people that can't figure out how to unsub.

Between that and the people who subscribe just to complain about the fact that the game isn't worth subscribing to, I'm extrapolating that my gaming is going to be subsidized well into the next decade.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

Another_Fan · 07-07-2011 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Between that and the people who subscribe just to complain about the fact that the game isn't worth subscribing to, I'm extrapolating that my gaming is going to be subsidized well into the next decade.

I thought your gaming was placating people upset about parts of the game or changes to the game. You know, if you think about that that makes you Golden Girls anti particle as she taunts people that are upset about changes to the game or parts of it

Oedipus_Tex · 07-07-2011 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garielle

A lot of players, myself included, express that we find repetitive grinding of the same content to be boring and undesirable. However, let's take a look at few facts of how a large segment of the community have chosen to utilize the existing game content and other systems.

First there were mission farms. We would find some mission that offered good XP or good salvage drops and put together teams to farm it repeatedly, never actually completing the mission objective, specifically so we could farm it again. For example, the Battle Maiden farm.

Then we got Newspaper Missions on the Villains side, and subsequently Radio Missions on the Hero side. Many players then ignored any contact missions that didn't offer some specific reward they were seeking and instead went from level 5-10ish nearly all the way to 50 with just the Newspaper/Radio missions. Missions, which are essentially all the same.

Then we got the ability to be as creative as we liked and create our own stories with the Mission Architect system. A large segment of the community used the system to create farming missions which didn't even try to pretend to actually have any story behind them.

Now it is easy for any of us to come up with anecdotal evidence saying, "Hey! I never did any of that stuff!" I could even, honestly, make that statement myself. However, take a look around, we are in the minority on that. Even if 100 people reply to this and say I am wrong, it would still be a vocal minority and not representative of the community as a whole. The developers, however, have access to statistical data that we do not. They see exactly what the majority of the players to spend their time doing while playing the game.

Yes, we can say that we hate grinding repetitive content until we are blue in the face, and it won't change one simple fact...actions speak louder than words. We, as a community, have acted, and the developers have heard us loud and clear.

I'm not sure if you're saying we're being punished because some people farmed or we now are required to farm because they assumed we enjoyed it.

In any case, at this point the BAF is unmistakeably an AV farm. It differs only from the old AE AV farms in that the rewards are actually worth it and the hospital is in zone. I guess BAF could stand for Blatantly Authorized Farm.

Shadow_Kitty · 07-08-2011 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garielle

A lot of players, myself included, express that we find repetitive grinding of the same content to be boring and undesirable. However, let's take a look at few facts of how a large segment of the community have chosen to utilize the existing game content and other systems.

What I want to know is how large that segment is. Is it chinese gold farmers large? EU community large? Vocal minority large? A majority?

What I also want to know is if you want to use the option to farm for progress to rationalize the removal of the option to progress WITHOUT farming.

And yes, I still consider the non-trial path not viable; hence me saying that the option to progress without farming is removed.

Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

EvilGeko · 07-08-2011 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

Because one of the last things you unlock on each side of the incarnate path we currently have is the level shifts. For many non-uber characters, these level shifts are a necessary component to run the high end content enjoyably. Since each step of the endgame consists of this same kind of mass random death stuff, it only stands to reason that anything that comes out from now on can only be enhanced by having the shifts.

So, basically, to have any hope of getting the tiniest bit of enjoyment out of any future endgame content, I will need the level shifts. Once I get those, I stop running trials.

Doesn't really answer the question I posed. If you enjoy the trials, but don't enjoy 'grinding' the trials, then my question is why not just take your time and do them when you feel the desire to do them? Yes, that means you'll get your level shifts slower. No doubt. But you'll be having fun. It won't feel like a 'grind' because you only played a trial when you felt like playing a trial. It might take you a month or three months or two years to get those level shifts, but when you get them it will be on your terms. You won't feel this resentment I hear from being 'forced' to do something by the devs.

Look at it this way. When I21 hits, I have a number of alts planned. I do not plan on grinding each of them to 50 - uber invention build - T4 Incarnates as fast as possible. That would kill all enjoyment I could have in those characters and basically be betraying why I created them in the first place.

I can't force anyone to see things my way. If folks are determined to be unhappy about being 'forced' to 'grind' the trials, then there's nothing I can do to change their mind. But I would caution you all to consider what would be the big downside if you all just took your time, and played the parts of the game that you enjoyed. You might not have some digital shinies. You might not be able to solo 5 +4 AVs at once. But you would be having fun with a game you at least at one point thought was worth subscribing to.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

rsclark · 07-08-2011 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilGeko

Doesn't really answer the question I posed.

Actually, yes, I did. It is to be prepared. I have a vacation coming up in September. I have already started not spending as much money as aI usually do in order to have some spare spending cash. I would enjoy myself right now much more if I had more money to throw around, but if I did that, I would not be prepared once September came around.

Quote:

If you enjoy the trials, but don't enjoy 'grinding' the trials, then my question is why not just take your time and do them when you feel the desire to do them?

That's a big if. I have never for one millisecond enjoyed a trial. Better to take the big bitter pill and get the unpleasant experience over with than to sit there and nibble on it for weeks or months.

I have run 3 trials in the past 30 days - it didn't make them the slightest bit enjoyable or less of a grind.

Plus you have the fact the time required to get trials put together is getting longer and longer. The characters I got unlocked in the first two weeks were much less of a hassle (though no more fun) than the one I am trying to do now, because of the easier availability of the trials.

Quote:

But you would be having fun with a game you at least at one point thought was worth subscribing to.

I am only having "fun" currently by not running trials at all. But right now I have a character at 44 who I am reluctant to play. In 6 levels, the only avenue available to advance that character is going to be trials. The fun will be sucked from the character, so I don't even want to play him right now and move closer to that undesirable future. The opportunity to play a character should not include an element of dread. Having a character grow and become more powerful should be absent of negatives, and shouldn't include "great, soon I will be allowed to take part in the worst content this game has ever had."

Jagged · 07-08-2011 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

I have run 3 trials in the past 30 days - it didn't make them the slightest bit enjoyable or less of a grind.

If you will pardon my language but I think this is like faking an orgasm.

<agony-aunt>If you fake it your partner will assume what they are doing works and you will get more of the same. So never fake it.</agony-aunt>

Sage advice

This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

Golden Girl · 07-08-2011 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

"great, soon I will be allowed to take part in the worst content this game has ever had."

But the Atlas Park missions are getting a revamp in I21

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Dromio · 07-08-2011 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

Plus you have the fact the time required to get trials put together is getting longer and longer. The characters I got unlocked in the first two weeks were much less of a hassle (though no more fun) than the one I am trying to do now, because of the easier availability of the trials.

This is what's killing my trials too. I unlocked and slotted one character in the first while after the trials came out. No big deal, it was even kind of fun. When I went back recently with a second character my lag was horrible, there was a lot more waiting to start the trial, and most of the trials were "speed" trials where I'd leave having gotten a very small percentage toward unlocking slots.

All in all I was taking more time and getting less reward this second time around because I wasn't doing the trials in that initial first rush of people.

Jagged · 07-08-2011 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dromio

All in all I was taking more time and getting less reward this second time around because I wasn't doing the trials in that initial first rush of people.

This has been my experience with all trials & TFs to be honest. Anyone want to do the Cathedral of Pain?

This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

EvilGeko · 07-08-2011 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

That's a big if. I have never for one millisecond enjoyed a trial.

You wanted some digital powers so badly that you're willing to do something you don't enjoy? And pay for the privilege?

OK. By the way, you did not answer the question I posed, because that question (not posed to you by the way), assumes that you enjoy the trials sometimes. The person I posed the question to, does appear to enjoy the trials, just not doing them all the time.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

reiella · 07-08-2011 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

That's a big if. I have never for one millisecond enjoyed a trial. Better to take the big bitter pill and get the unpleasant experience over with than to sit there and nibble on it for weeks or months.

I have run 3 trials in the past 30 days - it didn't make them the slightest bit enjoyable or less of a grind.

Plus you have the fact the time required to get trials put together is getting longer and longer. The characters I got unlocked in the first two weeks were much less of a hassle (though no more fun) than the one I am trying to do now, because of the easier availability of the trials.

Erm, not sure if I quite follow you, so going to just say how I'm seeing your complaints.

Your perceived need to grind the trials comes from wanting to get the incarnate level shifts. I'm presuming this means you find the T1 and T2 abilities reasonably accessible.

However, you are upset at having to run [grind] the trials in question to get those incarnate level shifts. So you're upset that you are forced to run the trials for a reward that only comes up when you're running the trials?

Is it based on another similar 'Big If' that there will be an incarnate trial that comes out that you will want to participate in?

[ edit / add ]
Ah, I think I see now, you just don't like the Trials at all, ever, and the mention of the incarnate shifts was superfluous.

Let's Dance!

MrCaptainMan · 07-08-2011 06:34 AM

I want Tier 3 and 4 Incarnate abilities because I'm assuming that they will help me solo or duo TFs with my SG-mate. The level shifts aren't terribly important to me apart from making my contribution to BAFs (which I'm doimg to get Incarnate stuff to help my solo/Duo TF experiences) better.

Eco

MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

EvilGeko · 07-08-2011 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan

I want Tier 3 and 4 Incarnate abilities because I'm assuming that they will help me solo or duo TFs with my SG-mate. The level shifts aren't terribly important to me apart from making my contribution to BAFs (which I'm doimg to get Incarnate stuff to help my solo/Duo TF experiences) better.

Eco

You would be better off with an extremely strong Invention build for that. The T3 and T4 would help, but not that much more than T2 which are easily obtainable without ever doing a trial.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

reiella · 07-08-2011 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilGeko

You would be better off with an extremely strong Invention build for that. The T3 and T4 would help, but not that much more than T2 which are easily obtainable without ever doing a trial.

I'd say with Clarion at T3 being an exception, perma mez protection is a big game changer. It's build dependent yes, but I can see T3 being important for that instance.

Arguably with Reactive, but I really have a low personal opinion of interface.

Let's Dance!

EvilGeko · 07-08-2011 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reiella

I'd say with Clarion at T3 being an exception, perma mez protection is a big game changer. It's build dependent yes, but I can see T3 being important for that instance.

Clarion is usable while mez which makes getting it perma much less strictly necessary. I do have it on my Cold/Ice Defender at T3 which is admittedly awesome with a cherry on top, so I concede the point.

Quote:

Arguably with Reactive, but I really have a low personal opinion of interface.

Reactive is a decent DPS increase at each stage. I have a very HIGH opinion of Interface as it's always there doing its job. But for soloing TF/SFs it's not necessary at all that you get it to T3.

With the change to Notices of the Well and the Apex/Tin Mage, it's less true that it ever has been that folks are 'forced' into the trials to advance. The trials are by far the fastest route to what you want, and for the cosmetic stuff it's sometimes the exclusive route. But for the powers, there's a slower, but viable path for folks who don't mind doing one TF a week.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.