Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So based on the poll, half the player-base responding haven't tried it yet? I admit that's how I voted.|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
From Facebook: What are your first-week impressions of Incarnates Ascend?
162 like it 49 like some of it 250 haven't checked it out 18 don't like it. |
That kinda seems like a significant portion of the new content doesn't matter to half the playerbase - which would alarm me if I were a Dev. I know FB polls aren't in the least bit a good statistical sampling, but still...
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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I assume by your use of "sage advice" you intended to be cryptic, but you went too far. I am struggling to figure out what you are trying to say. |
Originally Posted by Jagged
If you will pardon my language but I think this is like faking an orgasm.
<agony-aunt>If you fake it your partner will assume what they are doing works and you will get more of the same. So never fake it.</agony-aunt> Sage advice  |
If you are insinuating I am not being honest, then you are wrong. I ran three trials on the 4th, and had not done one in around a month before that. They were as abysmally bad as I had remembered them.
If by "faking it" you mean that by doing any incarnate trials I give the devs the mistaken belief that I like them, then I agree. And I have stated that if I had some meaningful (ie financial) method of communicating to the devs that "I like your game, but trials are ****", then I would do that. But as it stands, I don't have that option. For now they just get to creep forward pushing me closer and closer to canceling my acct with every new trial.
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As longs as the trials continue dropping end rewards that equal hundreds of threads and hundreds of millions in inf, there is absolutely nothing that can be done with non-trial drop rates that will make the slow path viable.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
With the change to Notices of the Well and the Apex/Tin Mage, it's less true that it ever has been that folks are 'forced' into the trials to advance. The trials are by far the fastest route to what you want, and for the cosmetic stuff it's sometimes the exclusive route. But for the powers, there's a slower, but viable path for folks who don't mind doing one TF a week.
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I work at a job to earn money to pay for videogames as well, doesn't mean I enjoy going to work. People regularly do things they do not enjoy in order to get access to things they do. Don't pretend that is somehow aberrant or unusual.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You wanted some digital powers so badly that you're willing to do something you don't enjoy? And pay for the privilege?
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I don't care that all the costume stuff is unlocked, or at least the acension stuff. I honestly don't get why the paths and auras are unlocked since they're no more incarnate-ish than the others we can unlock at 30.
I do care that it took me around 10 BAF/LAMDAs each to get the simple acension armor (still don't have cape/face) over a week. I just dislike how long it takes, bought over half of Judgement with threads, lore still isn't unlocked (I'm sure I could if I wanted to with more threads but then what would I have to make components with?). I wouldn't mind so much if you could unlock an incarnate slot with maybe two or three trials, y'know like how easy Alpha was unlocked, but instead it takes dozens.
No I'm not forced to do the trials (unless I really want the Radient Acension stuff, which I did until I found out shields float a mile away from your arm on the normal set to have room for the floaty bit, I find that less attractive than clipping), but the other way round is insane.
A shard maybe every three missions (same level, equal to 4 heroes), and ten shards can be turned into ten threads every 20 hours, otherwise it's only 5? Then you need 20 threads to make any common incarnate component? That's, at the least, five times more than what you needed for incarnate threads, at the most ten times (4 shards made one of the alpha components, 4 shards- if traded one to one every 20 hours- is only 1/5 what you need to make a thread component).
I haven't even looked at what it takes to make bigger components. So yeah, there is another way to make the actual game changing stuff... but who in their right mind would think that as a viable way, well other than Hello Kitty Island Adventure grinders? Not only that, but doing 2 TFs to get astral merits? That'd take ten runs of each to just get two of the armor bits, taking ten days if you can get on both TFs each day, not ten runs of each to get five of them. Even then it isn't a soloable thing.
So yes, I agree, all the incarnate stuff in I20 is 'locked' out of a casual player's gameplay because they don't find doing the same trial over and over and over again a rewarding way to unlock them.
I've always liked the leveling up from 1 to 50 or whatever in any game more, so end game doesn't have that much appeal to me. I only did those trials for the costume bits, which were more disappointing than I was hoping cause of the shield issue.
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Not superfluous at all. They are the carrot. PVP is also crappy content, but without a reliable reward structure, I don't feel pushed into taking part in it. Really, with the way trials are going now, I think the next slots should be split in half with one side unlocked exclusively by PVP and the other unlocked by yiffing with catgirls in pocket D. As long as they are compelling certain content to advance characters, they might as well make everyone do something unpleasant.
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Originally Posted by reiella
[ edit / add ]
Ah, I think I see now, you just don't like the Trials at all, ever, and the mention of the incarnate shifts was superfluous. |
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I intended to be funny. Obviously failed |
Originally Posted by rsclark
I assume by your use of "sage advice" you intended to be cryptic
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Originally Posted by rsclark
If by "faking it" you mean that by doing any incarnate trials I give the devs the mistaken belief that I like them, then I agree.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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They are a carrot only if you want to do incarnate trials. Hence my confusion.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Not superfluous at all. They are the carrot. PVP is also crappy content, but without a reliable reward structure, I don't feel pushed into taking part in it. Really, with the way trials are going now, I think the next slots should be split in half with one side unlocked exclusively by PVP and the other unlocked by yiffing with catgirls in pocket D. As long as they are compelling certain content to advance characters, they might as well make everyone do something unpleasant.
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"I hate doing this stupid task for a reward that only benefits me when I'm doing this stupid task" is silly.
Let's Dance!
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
So based on the poll, half the player-base responding haven't tried it yet? I admit that's how I voted.
That kinda seems like a significant portion of the new content doesn't matter to half the playerbase - which would alarm me if I were a Dev. I know FB polls aren't in the least bit a good statistical sampling, but still... |
Many people don't have a "50" yet, or haven't purchased Going Rogue. How can they try the Incarnate system?
American Dawg, Starblaze, Neanderthal Joe, Shining Dawn, Tokamak Dragon, Stinger Incarnate, Burning Tyger, Dover Tornado, Big Roach, Dark Paladin, Archmage Wylde, Kings Row Hornet, Prancing Deer
Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
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Don't the Incarnate powers work outside of trials? Or are we just talking level shifts here?|
Originally Posted by reiella
They are a carrot only if you want to do incarnate trials. Hence my confusion.
"I hate doing this stupid task for a reward that only benefits me when I'm doing this stupid task" is silly. |
Personally I wanted to get the level shifts for when I did trials and the powers for all content.
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Many people don't even play CoH. Many more have never even heard of CoH. It seems likely, however, that they aren't the ones answering the questions on the CoH Facebook page.|
Originally Posted by Mallerick
Many people don't have a "50" yet, or haven't purchased Going Rogue. How can they try the Incarnate system?
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https://www.facebook.com/CityofHeroes
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The incarnate powers, but the incarnate level shifts do not. That's why I was confused at the incarnate shifts specifically being mentioned. Until I realized that the incarnate shift in that context was being mentioned superfluously if the individual doesn't want to do Trials in the first place, ever.|
Originally Posted by Dromio
Don't the Incarnate powers work outside of trials? Or are we just talking level shifts here?
Personally I wanted to get the level shifts for when I did trials and the powers for all content. |
Your instance is reasonable, the increased survivability would make it possible for you to enjoy the trials, or at least stomach them easier. That's more a [legitimate] complaint about the disparity in difficulty for the starting out in the trials with certain character builds. There's a real problem with the disparity with survivability when you can soft cap your defense versus not. I feel it's more of a system wide problem that gets highlighted with the trials. It would still be nice to be address [either directly, or indirectly].
Let's Dance!
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Seeing as Arcanaville has been active in this thread I am surprised she didn't bother to make these points.*|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
Many people don't even play CoH. Many more have never even heard of CoH. It seems likely, however, that they aren't the ones answering the questions on the CoH Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/CityofHeroes |
Any survey or poll needs to be representative of the population you are trying to draw conclusions about.
If you aren't familiar with the concept.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-re...e-sampling.htm
*Well it is something that someone who wanted a well informed discussion would do.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You wanted some digital powers so badly that you're willing to do something you don't enjoy? And pay for the privilege?
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At least we agree what coin it is we're on opposite sides of.
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To anyone who might express this concern. Trials are not core game play. They are end game content, and what ever unique or new elements of game play might be added in trials, aren't being shoe-horned across the board in the rest of the game. |
Originally Posted by Pacur
these ones are expressing concern that the core gameplay is changing.
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So core game play is not changing. Some end game content is different than core game play, that's all.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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That's the explicit reason for the cossie and aura options that are not Ascension armor to be locked in behind the iTrials: as an incentive for people who do not enjoy trials to do them anyway. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You wanted some digital powers so badly that you're willing to do something you don't enjoy? And pay for the privilege?
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If you think it's silly to do something you do not enjoy to get a digital power, then consider that the cossie/aura lock-in was designed on purpose to get users to do exactly that.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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End game or not, they are the continuation of the core play, because it is the continued progress after hitting level 50. When you have reached level 50, the only way to continue progress is through trials. |
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
To anyone who might express this concern. Trials are not core game play. They are end game content, and what ever unique or new elements of game play might be added in trials, aren't being shoe-horned across the board in the rest of the game.
So core game play is not changing. Some end game content is different than core game play, that's all. |
I think that's pretty much core.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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You mean after getting level 50 and finishing out your IO-build and Accolades, no?
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
End game or not, they are the continuation of the core play, because it is the continued progress after hitting level 50. When you have reached level 50, the only way to continue progress is through trials.
I think that's pretty much core. |
Let's Dance!
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Possibly. It depends on whether you define IO-build and accolades as polish, refinement or progress.|
Originally Posted by reiella
You mean after getting level 50 and finishing out your IO-build and Accolades, no?
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Well, of course it's a kind of progress since you actually progress, but it's a kind of progress that I don't feel is progressing very much, simply because "nothing" is really happening except for a few numbers that increases, but you really don't get anything new that you couldn't do before and those numbers are hidden away anyway so you don't see them unless you open the stats window, so it doesn't feel like progress but rather a bit more like polish, (deep breath) and hence often overlooks.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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A fair perspective difference, if an interesting one |
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Possibly. It depends on whether you define IO-build and accolades as polish, refinement or progress.
Well, of course it's a kind of progress since you actually progress, but it's a kind of progress that I don't feel is progressing very much, simply because "nothing" is really happening except for a few numbers that increases, but you really don't get anything new that you couldn't do before and those numbers are hidden away anyway so you don't see them unless you open the stats window, so it doesn't feel like progress but rather a bit more like polish, (deep breath) and hence often overlooks. |
.In the same manner, conventional leveling is really only seen when you are getting new powers [not necessarily when you are getting slots, although I imagine auto-powers also feel empty].
Something to consider though, the differences between T1 and T4 for the incarnate abilities are really just numbers as well. There is more of a feeling of immediate progression with say, going from T2 Judgement to T3 than by contrast slotting another lotg and approaching Perma-Dom [of course, once perma-dom is achieved, it's a tipping point factor, much like soft-capped defense].
Personally, I feel the progression with IOs and Accolades are already established and many folks have already progressed through them as far as they are willing to with that character. But we have this new advancement avenue, but it's pretty heavily biased in favor of raid game play. So folks discount the older methods [and frankly, I don't blame them, they're old
] of advancement.
Let's Dance!
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I also agree... furthermore, the lack of a solo path, and I do not recognize the current solo path (which takes 90 days for 1 tier four power, playing 6-8hrs a day) as viable, means that an entire community of players is left out in the cold. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
I agree. You have my thanks also.
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Solo players are SOL and JWF when it comes to this.
Basically what Paragon is telling us is, "You HAVE to play the Trials if you want these new costume assets, not only do you have to play them, but you have to play them all three at least 3 days to get ONE PIECE of the costumes we have designed."
Now, locking content behind unlockables is fine, but you also have to consider that the players without time to play that much, and who haven't got a regular group, will be MUCH longer then the miniumum to get these assets. Assets which took the time of the Art Department to make, so those players without do not get any of those items which, our subscriptions paid for, until they manage somehow down the line to GRIND and get them.
This is a complete change of direction from Paragon's previous policies when it comes to costuming options.. If the prices where considerably lower, say 1 E-Merit per unlock, or if the merits awarded far more often, for example, doing things perfectly in a portion of the trial (dropped during a BaF when no prisoners escape, dropping either AV wihtout a death, and compeleting the badge requirements), then it would be fair-er but it is still locking those players unwilling to do the trials away from costume content that is unavailble any other way.
Even when RWZ launched, everyone complained about the high prices on the Vanguard uniform parts, but a solo player COULD STILL DO IT, because Rikti in RWZ dropped the neccasary merit.
Now we have a merit, unlocked only one way, in only 3 events in the game, and each is limited to dropping 1 of those merits a day per character.
The E-Merit system is broken, I said so in the open beta and I am saying so now.
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
To anyone who might express this concern. Trials are not core game play. They are end game content, and what ever unique or new elements of game play might be added in trials, aren't being shoe-horned across the board in the rest of the game.
So core game play is not changing. Some end game content is different than core game play, that's all. |
~~Elvnsword~~
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
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No, that's not correct. The costume pieces are rewards for people who enjoy the trials and value cosmetic items. This idea that the devs are trying to 'bribe' anyone is silly. |
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
That's the explicit reason for the cossie and aura options that are not Ascension armor to be locked in behind the iTrials: as an incentive for people who do not enjoy trials to do them anyway.
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| If you think it's silly to do something you do not enjoy to get a digital power, then consider that the cossie/aura lock-in was designed on purpose to get users to do exactly that. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
One thing:
Incarnate content is, and for hte foreseeable future is going to be, VIP ONLY.
Other content can be bought via the Paragon Market/is otherwise acessible to Premium Players.
I suspect a significant amount of the devs attention is going to be on creating stuff accessible to Premium Players (via the Paragon Market, thereby directly earning them money)
IE: Non-incarnate stuff.
THink on that for a moment.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Actually, the goal is to get as many players to become VIP players as possible. At least that's what's been stated, their goal is to remain primarily funded by the subscription revenues.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
One thing:
Incarnate content is, and for hte foreseeable future is going to be, VIP ONLY. Other content can be bought via the Paragon Market/is otherwise acessible to Premium Players. I suspect a significant amount of the devs attention is going to be on creating stuff accessible to Premium Players (via the Paragon Market, thereby directly earning them money) IE: Non-incarnate stuff. THink on that for a moment. |
Let's Dance!
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