Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I still think that's a largely illusory benefit. It only helps if you actually want to use the same part on 2+ characters. I suspect most of them, especially the non-Ascension parts, are too specific to have a lot of repeat use.|
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
To unlock the pieces on one single toon. The incarnate pieces are account wide (well for level 50's).
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-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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Eh, I've used them on 10+ 50's so far. Some on their main costumes, others on 2nd costumes. I feel my astral/emp purchases have been worth it.
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Originally Posted by Darkonne
I still think that's a largely illusory benefit. It only helps if you actually want to use the same part on 2+ characters. I suspect most of them, especially the non-Ascension parts, are too specific to have a lot of repeat use.
-D |
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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Alternate perspective:|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Granted, the task force epaulets requires you to do seven different task forces once, but they're fun so you would probably do them anyway, and you only have to do them once each.
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I find those task forces so very not fun, I instead opted to do an alignment shift, and look for mayhems with villains of various lower levels, then alignment shift back to hero instead.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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That depends on your definition of "grind". I consider TF Commander to be a horrible grind (mostly because of Synapse and Citadel) and I would never do it if it wasn't for the health boost. Also, some of the unockable weapons could easily be viewed as a grind, especially the ones Red Cap and Ralaruu ones for Villains (which have very limited access without side switching).
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
But there have not been rewards locked behind gates that players have to grind. They just have to play it once, with the ITF as the notable exception. And if you need them on other characters, I still suspect that players rarely level two roman nictus characters at the same time and need those parts unlocked at the same time.
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This topic has come full-circle about three times now, and since it seems to be doing so again, I'd just like to point those who haven't read it back to my first post in this thread (many have quoted it already, so I am assuming I kept things clear and diplomatic).
For those who like the trials and/or want to run the trials, whether it is for the cosmetic pieces, the powers, or both, none of this really matters.
The crux of the matter is the inclusion of non-Incarnate-based costume items and emotes as rewards for Incarnate content. And by the adjective "non-Incarnate-based" I am referring to the items that either have no obvious thematic ties to Incarnate content and/or have not been outwardly defended as having been designed exclusively for Incarnates (i.e. the Ascension Armor).
For any further explanation, just check the post in the link above.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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It's obvious to me that people who value costume parts will want these costume parts, irrespective of wether or notbthey like trials. A subset of those won't be cobvinced to do the trials, but there are people who will despite not liking them. If you think tge Devs haven't factored this into their trial runner numbers then you have a lower estimstion of them than I thought you did. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No, that's not correct. The costume pieces are rewards for people who enjoy the trials and value cosmetic items. This idea that the devs are trying to 'bribe' anyone is silly.
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Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Arcanaville, you are superhumanly cool. Every post you make is a parahon of reason and sense.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The truth is somewhat in the middle actually. The devs are not attempting to bribe players who do not want to run the trials at all into doing them. The devs assume such an attempt would actually fail for most such players. However, the vast, overwhelming majority of players are perceived to be not just people who pick what they do completely reward-blind, or people who pick what they do based solely on the rewards offered, but on a value judgment that balances their preferences with their desire for certain rewards.
Every day when I log out a character, for *some* of them I specifically move them to a spot where they can earn a day job badge or accolade they don't yet have. Do I literally want to run around to pseudo-random locations in the game before logging off? Would I do that if there was no such reward? Of course not. I don't literally *want* to move to those specific spots before logging out. On the other hand, I don't think its all that big a deal to get those rewards. I don't *hate* moving to those spots to get those rewards. I don't like doing it, I don't hate doing it. Its not something I would ordinarily do for no reason, but I am willing to do them for the reward. Does that mean I'm being "bribed" to do it? Not really, except insofar as rewarding any behavior is a bribe. I don't believe I'm being persuaded to do something I have a specific prohibition from doing. I'm simply being offered a choice: do X, get Y. Or not. And in this case, the decision is not one of being forced to do it, but choosing to do it. I say I'm not forced to do it because I actually don't do this for every single character I play. I do it on my main (whose still working on the side switch day jobs) most of the time. I do it on most of my 50s. I sometimes do it on alts I'm leveling, but other times I don't bother. I make the choice not just per alt, but also per day, situationally, depending on whether I feel like it or not. Nearly *all* the choices the devs offer in the game are choices intended to be evaluated in that way. Here's a reward, here's the activity that generates it, do it or not, do it frequently or infrequently, today or tomorrow, based on whether you think the activity is worth the effort and whether the activity is something you are willing or desire to do. People saying that if the trials were any good the devs wouldn't have to offer rewards for them are being disingenuous. They wouldn't advocate removing *all* rewards for the game. That's not how these games work. But conversely saying the devs think the players are completely blind to rewards is also not accurate. The devs recognize that players do evaluate their choices based in part on what rewards are generated by each activity. That doesn't mean players always seek to optimize reward earning, but it does factor in and the devs know this. The devs target the middle, offering choices that players will be motivated to make, but aren't compelled to make. If most players said they didn't care about the rewards at all, that would indicate the rewards are probably too low. But if most players said they felt compelled to acquire the rewards because their value made it impossible to do otherwise, that would indicate the rewards are probably too high. What they are aiming for is "I'd like that reward, I'll put some effort into it, but I won't damage my own enjoyment of the game to pursue it." And they aren't aiming for *everyone* to think that, because that's impossible. They are only aiming for the average player to think that. The extremes on both ends will think the rewards are either meaningless or too overtly compelling. That's unintended, but unavoidable. Thinking that the devs specifically did something to make one specific person feel the way they do is generally wrong. In the specific case of the incarnate costume parts, they are certainly a reward for people who are already running a lot of trials and accumulating merits. But its also true that those rewards were added for people who were not necessarily doing that but would be willing to do so simply because the reward itself was something they were more inclined to pursue than the incarnate powers themselves. But the devs are not attempting to bribe someone who doesn't want to run the trials at all into suddenly running them constantly. The players who are doing that are outside the sphere of what the devs specifically intend. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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And that there are so =many= of them that I give up trying to get them through iTrials, and hope I can support the new store once I21 comes out.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
The crux of the matter is the inclusion of non-Incarnate-based costume items and emotes as rewards for Incarnate content.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Depends on the player. There are many badge hunters out there. And most of those quirks are actually tied to badges. A few others gave response with regard to the Accolades as well. But it can be a problem for some players. You admittedly don't see it as too much of a problem because you actually enjoy that content, so you frame it as being something different than the situation you dislike. Which is ok, there are numerable differences and such flat comparisons on either side are prone to really be inaccurate.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
I don't think that any player wants epaulets, bald witch hat and nictus sword/armour on every character. More likely, they want epaulets on this character, bald witch hat on this other character, and the nictus sword on that character.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
This topic has come full-circle about three times now, and since it seems to be doing so again, I'd just like to point those who haven't read it back to my first post in this thread (many have quoted it already, so I am assuming I kept things clear and diplomatic).
For those who like the trials and/or want to run the trials, whether it is for the cosmetic pieces, the powers, or both, none of this really matters. The crux of the matter is the inclusion of non-Incarnate-based costume items and emotes as rewards for Incarnate content. And by the adjective "non-Incarnate-based" I am referring to the items that either have no obvious thematic ties to Incarnate content and/or have not been outwardly defended as having been designed exclusively for Incarnates (i.e. the Ascension Armor). For any further explanation, just check the post in the link above. |
Your first post is referring to the method of acquisition and stating that other currencies have multiple acquisition methods. Again, there are also other rewards in this game that do not have multiple acquisition methods. But to be fair, my remarks were more in line that it's bad for their to be unique rewards for a system [bribing people to participate in it].
Your quoted post is referencing that it's not thematically appropriate for some [most] of the items on the reward table to be exclusively available from Empyrean [And Astral as their alternative acquisition is pretty much worse than trying to get Isolated in Recluse's Victory] merits. And that's a different issue than what I was intending to reference.
I am quite positive the discussion goes in circles. It often does. Especially as a thread gets larger than 3 pages
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Originally Posted by NuclearToast
And that there are so =many= of them that I give up trying to get them through iTrials, and hope I can support the new store once I21 comes out.
--NT |
Not to suggest that you are planning on them being available in the mtx store, just that folks in general shouldn't anticipate things changing until they actually do change. Better to be pleasantly surprised than left wondering when the Vault is coming out.
Let's Dance!
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Of course the developers know that a subset of people will chase shiny objects no matter the cost. But that doesn't mean that they consciously want people to do things that they hate. They want people to enjoy the content, and if they don't, to do something else in the game that they do like. Both you and Shadow are speaking of the de facto effect of the developers action. I'm speaking of their intent.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
It's obvious to me that people who value costume parts will want these costume parts, irrespective of wether or notbthey like trials. A subset of those won't be cobvinced to do the trials, but there are people who will despite not liking them. If you think tge Devs haven't factored this into their trial runner numbers then you have a lower estimstion of them than I thought you did.
Eco |
I simply do not believe that any developer wants people to do things that they hate. They would prefer that players enjoy the content. It is you who must have a truly low opinion of the developers if you think they are these sadists who wish people to hate playing the game.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
The developers gain nothing if people who don't ant to play the trials do them get stressed and quit. What goal could they possibly achieve by that method?
It's quiet simple, the player base is so diverse that they toss as many cookies as they have at every new system they make so no one goes "I like the new toys but I don't play witht hem because I get the cookies I like else where...but I've been else where for so long I don't care for it."
They want every person who plays on the new toys to feel like they are getting something they like out if it. Anytime a new system is released you can expect it to have costume pieces and badges as well as whatever new cookies the Keebler developers just pushed out of their tree.
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Actually, I dislike Synapse and Citadel TFs, about as much as I dislike the trials. |
Originally Posted by reiella
Depends on the player. There are many badge hunters out there. And most of those quirks are actually tied to badges. A few others gave response with regard to the Accolades as well. But it can be a problem for some players. You admittedly don't see it as too much of a problem because you actually enjoy that content, so you frame it as being something different than the situation you dislike. Which is ok, there are numerable differences and such flat comparisons on either side are prone to really be inaccurate.
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But I only have to do them once, and that's assuming that the character really needs the epaulets, or that I happen to want more badges on that character.
And therein lies the difference.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Originally Posted by LISAR
The developers gain nothing if people who don't ant to play the trials do them get stressed and quit. What goal could they possibly achieve by that method?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Of course the developers know that a subset of people will chase shiny objects no matter the cost. But that doesn't mean that they consciously want people to do things that they hate. They want people to enjoy the content, and if they don't, to do something else in the game that they do like. Both you and Shadow are speaking of the de facto effect of the developers action. I'm speaking of their intent.
I simply do not believe that any developer wants people to do things that they hate. They would prefer that players enjoy the content. It is you who must have a truly low opinion of the developers if you think they are these sadists who wish people to hate playing the game. |
But they do, I'm sure, know that there are a significant portion of 'don't like the trials' players who WILL do the trials to get the shinies, and WON'T particularly like them all that much, but WON'T hate them or get stressed enough to quit.
This isn't a binary 'Love the game, yay, i keep subbing'/'Boo, hate it, I quit!' situation.
As Arcanaville pointed out upthread, there is some stuff that people do not because it's fun for them, but because they want the reward and performing whatever action is just this side of too onerous.
I'm a badger, but i am never going to spend any time or effort actively striving to get Bug Hunter, because it's not worth the effort to me . I do the BAF because I want the shinies and it's not too much trouble. That doesn't mean i enjoy repeating it over and over.
I'm not doing the Lambda or the Keyes because it sounds like it would be too much trouble.
Doing the trials does not equal liking them. But to the Devs, the liking part is secondary to the doing them in importance, IMO.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that grinding trials in a casual MMO will be controversial.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I simply do not believe that any developer wants people to do things that they hate. They would prefer that players enjoy the content. It is you who must have a truly low opinion of the developers if you think they are these sadists who wish people to hate playing the game.
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And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that locking an entire progression system behind very little content would also be controversial.
So I don't know what to believe. I agree that they didn't do it out of sadism, but then why? Good faith or plain ignorance, or something else?
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Perhaps it's simply because it's the product they choose to produce. I have seen the developers discuss the fact they consider themselves to be casual and not hardcore gamers. |
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that grinding trials in a casual MMO will be controversial.
And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that locking an entire progression system behind very little content would also be controversial. So I don't know what to believe. I agree that they didn't do it out of sadism, but then why? Good faith or plain ignorance, or something else? |
Some will like it, some won't and it's financial suicide to even try and make everyone happy, IMO.
In the case of the trials, like anything else, there are simply people that don't like them. That does not make the trials, the reward structure around them, the people that like them or the players that don't like them right or wrong, sadist or masochist.
It just means the developers decide they wanted to make them and based upon the information they have, that there would be ROI in doing so.
IMO, nothing more, nothing less. No animosity toward players, just that the trials and the Incarnate system were are what they wanted to make.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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The devs are mostly "casual" MMO players, so they designed Trials to be casual-friendly - the kind of raids they'd like to do as MMO players.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that grinding trials in a casual MMO will be controversial.
And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that locking an entire progression system behind very little content would also be controversial. So I don't know what to believe. I agree that they didn't do it out of sadism, but then why? Good faith or plain ignorance, or something else? |
They also got a huge amount of positive feedback on the Trials during beta, and once they went live, and datamining will show them that the Trials have been incredibly successful.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Ummm I was pointing out (again because it bears repeating) that the extreme does not make sense.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
You are both speaking in extremes. I don't believe of course that the Devs want us to hate the content, or that they intend for people to get stressed AND QUIT.
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The devs are not bribing people who hate trials to do them because they know that will cost them money.
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And if they aren't some people will still insist they were anyway.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs are mostly "casual" MMO players, so they designed Trials to be casual-friendly - the kind of raids they'd like to do as MMO players.
They also got a huge amount of positive feedback on the Trials during beta, and once they went live, and datamining will show them that the Trials have been incredibly successful. |
Edit: It always amuses me and irritates but, the word Datamining doesn't mean what your usage indicates you think it means.
Not to defend your respondant or anything, but please enlighten us all on the actual meaning of "datamining" if it does not mean keeping track of X, examining your numbers re X and drawing conclusions based on what those numbers show.
With that said, I dont think anyone could conclude "people love these trials! Lookit all the people running them!" when the only way you can get a bunch of end-game stuff is by running the trials. Any success achieved is not in making people develop a sudden lust for trials, but in forcing them to run them for specific content. And lets face it, if you want to unlock a slot, you are forced to run that trial. No other way to get it.
So what that shows is not love, but that people want the STUFF. Trials are not their most beloved of all activites, people just want their stuff.
What I'd be interested in is how well the Keyes Island trial has been received vs the other two. I have a feeling that set of data is not looking so hot at the moment.
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So is limiting your flagship endgame to one exclusive playstyle when the game it's tacked on to is famous for its casual, pick up and play nature. They tried to limit this by creating the team up teleporter but that seems to have failed as a solution. |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Some will like it, some won't and it's financial suicide to even try and make everyone happy, IMO.
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They can't cater for everyone, that's true, but focusing on just one playstyle seems terribly shortsighted to me.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Its one part of the process of extracting knowledge from large data sets. Imagine if someone said U.S. Steel built your car, or the Minnesota Iron mining association built a bridge ?
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Not to defend your respondant or anything, but please enlighten us all on the actual meaning of "datamining" if it does not mean keeping track of X, examining your numbers re X and drawing conclusions based on what those numbers show.
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Originally Posted by Dante
So is limiting your flagship endgame to one exclusive playstyle when the game it's tacked on to is famous for its casual, pick up and play nature. They tried to limit this by creating the team up teleporter but that seems to have failed as a solution.
They can't cater for everyone, that's true, but focusing on just one playstyle seems terribly shortsighted to me. |
Its not that it is just one playstyle. Its a playstyle that has proven not particularly popular in the games past. Hamidon raids (Still the best reward/time in the game), mother ship raids, shadow shard tfs the long hardcore events are all things people like but only in small amounts.
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So, whenever someone says "datamining" they're supposed to list an incredibly long list of stuff/functions/options/what-have-you in order to be consistent with your expectations of the actual meaning, anytime this word is used?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its one part of the process of extracting knowledge from large data sets. Imagine if someone said U.S. Steel built your car, or the Minnesota Iron mining association built a bridge ?
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I wish you luck in getting people to comply; you'll need it.
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I doubt I'll have any more luck than people do with irregardless or alot. In this case it's more comical than most. Given the devs track record, their data analysis resembles Kentucky windage more than knowledge extraction.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
So, whenever someone says "datamining" they're supposed to list an incredibly long list of stuff/functions/options/what-have-you in order to be consistent with your expectations of the actual meaning, anytime this word is used?
I wish you luck in getting people to comply; you'll need it. |
And as for the witch hat, you get two much better hats with hair in the Magic booster pack, from level one, on all your characters.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"