City of Heroes 2 Coming Soon
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-12 11:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Alot of times its easier to start from scratch than to try and fix something that has become incredibly convoluted. Fort one, you have learned some of the problems you will face from the previous game and can adjust your framework around it from day 1.
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Originally Posted by Broomhilda
Honestly I hope they are not working on a CoH2, they cant even get the first one fixed.. So the hope that they would get a second one right is pretty null and void.
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Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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7 years is 7 years. Time is my point. No one year MMO even if they work with no sleep can put the content in place. DCUO I could play through in a weekend. About CoH Trials. I think your comments aren't fair. This is the first set of many trials.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
7 years of content... Yet most of the playerbase hovers around the new shinies, be it AE, level 50 TFs, or now just the two same trials over and over. Heh.
 I haven't tried many new MMOs, mostly because all of them have some kind of deal breaker for me before I even get to try it, but rather than praise the way CoH is managed I'm much more inclined to believe the game itself is the reason for its success. The gameplay is fun, accessible and yet at the same time has some depth into it if you want to dig further. There's none of the annoying trends of other MMOs (holy trinity, forced vocal chat, overreliance on third party software, competitiveness even in PvE with rolls for rewards, automation and bots, etc.), or to put it another way, other MMOs often end up feeling like work whereas this game stays a game. |
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Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean it will be a complete failure. DCUO has been doing very well. I don't like Final Fantasy games, but they still sell like hot cakes.
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Originally Posted by Residentx10
I'll just add this comment. DCUO never had a chance. How do you play ball with a game that is 7 years old? Even if they never slept they'll never have enough content. When the game came, I asked my friend to timecard with me because I felt the game was going to be a console type not a serious PC game. This was the smartest decision I have made in my gaming life. None of my personal information was ever exposed and the game had such huge downloads, I could never play it on my time. CoH has figured some things out....lots still don't have broadband.
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Compared to CO, yes.
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Originally Posted by That_Ninja
DCUO has been doing very well.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It has? Serious question, I didn't think it did well at all. |
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
DCUO has been doing very well.
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Perhaps on PS3?
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This x10000000|
Originally Posted by Bonehead
Whether or not this is feasible, it would be great if they could do a CoH 2.0 instead of a CoH 2 wherein the game has the same feel, plays the same, we don't have to learn how everything works again, etc., but all the systems (fx, powers, etc.) go revamped and upgraded so that they would be more flexible then they are now.
/pipedream |
Thats what I hope for this game and that they learn from their mistakes finally and scrap the current powers system thats locked them into not being able to make the needed changes for the better of the game. And I hope the cottage rule gets caught on fire and burned to the ground.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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It had one of the biggest MMO releases (that aren't WoW) and besides the recent SOE online debacle, still having a very large community.
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Originally Posted by Jetpack
It has? Serious question, I didn't think it did well at all.
Perhaps on PS3? |
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That's an...interesting take on the situation |
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
It had one of the biggest MMO releases (that aren't WoW) and besides the recent SOE online debacle, still having a very large community.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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What a weird yet accurate analogy.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Good analogy, actually.
I have an old pair of jeans that I wear a lot. Sure, they're old and worn, and it bugs me that the pockets are too small to do anything useful, even to fit my hands into. But they're comfy as hell. So I keep wearing them. I like 'em |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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There actually is a way to do it. No, I won't tell you how.
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Originally Posted by Residentx10
7 years is 7 years. Time is my point. No one year MMO even if they work with no sleep can put the content in place. DCUO I could play through in a weekend. About CoH Trials. I think your comments aren't fair. This is the first set of many trials.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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No, that's an objective one. I personally don't like the game (character creation was too limited), but I am not going to delude myself to believe that it is a failure and CoH is the pinnacle of video games. I love this game. It's fun to play and I don't need to invest much time into it to accomplish something, but the game does need to improve.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's an...interesting take on the situation
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Based on what I've seen so far, the SOE outage is one of the nails in the coffin for DCUO. Their subscribers have been falling dramatically since expiration of the first month -- to the point where they're merging the servers and the players have been asking for a F2P conversion.|
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
No, that's an objective one. I personally don't like the game (character creation was too limited), but I am not going to delude myself to believe that it is a failure and CoH is the pinnacle of video games. I love this game. It's fun to play and I don't need to invest much time into it to accomplish something, but the game does need to improve.
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Mod5, I know... no need to send me a PM for this one.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
This may have already been said:
- Ideally, one could simply use the new client if they wanted to and still have access to the "old" servers (which would be updated). Servers would be able to handle requests from either the "classic" client or the new (CoX2) client (I understand that this would significantly add to development time because of having to support and test two separate clients).
- If the above is not possible, allow character transitions from CoX to CoX2 if players want them. Some may wish to stay on the "old" servers for a variety of reasons (Their hardware, personal/group relationships, etc.).
- Update the graphics (more similar to DCUO than CO)
- Update the game while allowing the core of the game to be relatively unchanged. Don't go the route of CO or DCUO when it comes to how to play.
- More destructable objects
- Allow for more seamless/familiar mission architect modules/storylines
- - - Allow for paid storyline content by author (revenue sharing)
- - - Dress it up a bit so that it seems more like you're walking into a comic book store and picking a book off the shelves.
- - - Allow players to play as key characters in theses isolated story arcs. Let them "live" CoH's history.
- Allow for more accessible and publicized weekly and monthly events. Use incentives via badge or otherwise for these events.
- Integrate youtube and screenshot saves with the forum/social media so that players can share their adventures more easily. A set space amount would be given with more space available at a cost.
- Solidify achievements/badges/etc. so they are part of the forums/character profile. Make sure the achievements can be hidden/shown based on player and alt.
- Allow for SG/Forum integration based on server then group. Again, allow for integration so that SG events can be generated on the forum and posted both in game and on forum.
- Allow for SG/VG clashes - Publicize these and if possible make them so that they can simply be watched by people (spectator mode)
- Allow for Hero/Villain challenges (PvP) to be point and achievement based, also allowing for spectator mode. Make sure these achievements are linked to the forum for recognition/promotion.
- Allow spectator mode to be streamed to mobile devices
- Allow some mission editor features to be worked on with mobile devices
- Market and merchandise as much as possible - more so than in the past.
- A F2P element could be in the works. I'm not going to go into that. Implementations and suggestions would be largely based on their approach.
- Allow for storylines to have an overview - allowing the player to decide if they want to go that route or not. Again, similar to going to a comic book store and leafing through an issue or two. This would allow for the player to "buy in" to the storyline more.
Some of this is already somewhat available. I'm looking to have these things more connected. Allow for people who have CoH on their mind when their away from their home computer to connect and interact in some way, shape or form. Allow them to be more involved so that they are thinking about it more. Help drive the desire.
That's all for now. These are just random improvement thoughts off the top of my head. I've played this, CO and DCUO. I'm still here and purchased all the stuff that's come out for CoX. I wish Paragon nothing but the best.
It's late and I'm fading. 
Best Wishes to All
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Good wishlist, and in a perfect world, maybe, but it raises a few issues:|
Originally Posted by Sylvanus
This may have already been said:
- Ideally, one could simply use the new client if they wanted to and still have access to the "old" servers (which would be updated). Servers would be able to handle requests from either the "classic" client or the new (CoX2) client (I understand that this would significantly add to development time because of having to support and test two separate clients). - If the above is not possible, allow character transitions from CoX to CoX2 if players want them. Some may wish to stay on the "old" servers for a variety of reasons (Their hardware, personal/group relationships, etc.). - Update the graphics (more similar to DCUO than CO) - Update the game while allowing the core of the game to be relatively unchanged. Don't go the route of CO or DCUO when it comes to how to play. - More destructable objects - Allow for more seamless/familiar mission architect modules/storylines - - - Allow for paid storyline content by author (revenue sharing) - - - Dress it up a bit so that it seems more like you're walking into a comic book store and picking a book off the shelves. - - - Allow players to play as key characters in theses isolated story arcs. Let them "live" CoH's history. - Allow for more accessible and publicized weekly and monthly events. Use incentives via badge or otherwise for these events. - Integrate youtube and screenshot saves with the forum/social media so that players can share their adventures more easily. A set space amount would be given with more space available at a cost. - Solidify achievements/badges/etc. so they are part of the forums/character profile. Make sure the achievements can be hidden/shown based on player and alt. - Allow for SG/Forum integration based on server then group. Again, allow for integration so that SG events can be generated on the forum and posted both in game and on forum. - Allow for SG/VG clashes - Publicize these and if possible make them so that they can simply be watched by people (spectator mode) - Allow for Hero/Villain challenges (PvP) to be point and achievement based, also allowing for spectator mode. Make sure these achievements are linked to the forum for recognition/promotion. - Allow spectator mode to be streamed to mobile devices - Allow some mission editor features to be worked on with mobile devices - Market and merchandise as much as possible - more so than in the past. - A F2P element could be in the works. I'm not going to go into that. Implementations and suggestions would be largely based on their approach. - Allow for storylines to have an overview - allowing the player to decide if they want to go that route or not. Again, similar to going to a comic book store and leafing through an issue or two. This would allow for the player to "buy in" to the storyline more. Some of this is already somewhat available. I'm looking to have these things more connected. Allow for people who have CoH on their mind when their away from their home computer to connect and interact in some way, shape or form. Allow them to be more involved so that they are thinking about it more. Help drive the desire. That's all for now. These are just random improvement thoughts off the top of my head. I've played this, CO and DCUO. I'm still here and purchased all the stuff that's come out for CoX. I wish Paragon nothing but the best. It's late and I'm fading. Best Wishes to All |
1) To allow for much of what you'd want, they'd need a sizable revamp of the communication protocol. They've noted before of the limits to what they can add costume/effect customization-wise because they only have so much data allocated for that, for example. Adding more destructibles similarly adds more to track, which increases the data sent with each tick, which similarly is already straining in active areas.
If you really go so far as revamping this core piece AND you want to keep reverse compatibility with the old client, then you'll have to then make the old client handle the new data format... and that is not as easy as it sounds (there's a reason why devs don't like tampering with things at this level.
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2) By constraining yourself to just a UI update, you lose the ability to try to modernize gameplay and maybe hit some of those design elements that really don't fit the gamer market that's matured 7 years. Mezz mechanics could use a good revamp, for example...
3) Character transitions are hopeful- They'd have to be level 1 (especially if its new mechanics and reinterpreted powersets) but copying over names, supergroups, and legacy badges would be very nice.
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If Paragon had 500 developers this could be possible. DCUO has some nice things but it's not a model. DCUO new model is download hell with 9-13GB updates everytime they release content. I wouldn't pay to have everything newer in better graphics. I would want new content period and |
Originally Posted by Sylvanus
This may have already been said:
- Ideally, one could simply use the new client if they wanted to and still have access to the "old" servers (which would be updated). Servers would be able to handle requests from either the "classic" client or the new (CoX2) client (I understand that this would significantly add to development time because of having to support and test two separate clients). - If the above is not possible, allow character transitions from CoX to CoX2 if players want them. Some may wish to stay on the "old" servers for a variety of reasons (Their hardware, personal/group relationships, etc.). - Update the graphics (more similar to DCUO than CO) - Update the game while allowing the core of the game to be relatively unchanged. Don't go the route of CO or DCUO when it comes to how to play. - More destructable objects - Allow for more seamless/familiar mission architect modules/storylines - - - Allow for paid storyline content by author (revenue sharing) - - - Dress it up a bit so that it seems more like you're walking into a comic book store and picking a book off the shelves. - - - Allow players to play as key characters in theses isolated story arcs. Let them "live" CoH's history. - Allow for more accessible and publicized weekly and monthly events. Use incentives via badge or otherwise for these events. - Integrate youtube and screenshot saves with the forum/social media so that players can share their adventures more easily. A set space amount would be given with more space available at a cost. - Solidify achievements/badges/etc. so they are part of the forums/character profile. Make sure the achievements can be hidden/shown based on player and alt. - Allow for SG/Forum integration based on server then group. Again, allow for integration so that SG events can be generated on the forum and posted both in game and on forum. - Allow for SG/VG clashes - Publicize these and if possible make them so that they can simply be watched by people (spectator mode) - Allow for Hero/Villain challenges (PvP) to be point and achievement based, also allowing for spectator mode. Make sure these achievements are linked to the forum for recognition/promotion. - Allow spectator mode to be streamed to mobile devices - Allow some mission editor features to be worked on with mobile devices - Market and merchandise as much as possible - more so than in the past. - A F2P element could be in the works. I'm not going to go into that. Implementations and suggestions would be largely based on their approach. - Allow for storylines to have an overview - allowing the player to decide if they want to go that route or not. Again, similar to going to a comic book store and leafing through an issue or two. This would allow for the player to "buy in" to the storyline more. Some of this is already somewhat available. I'm looking to have these things more connected. Allow for people who have CoH on their mind when their away from their home computer to connect and interact in some way, shape or form. Allow them to be more involved so that they are thinking about it more. Help drive the desire. That's all for now. These are just random improvement thoughts off the top of my head. I've played this, CO and DCUO. I'm still here and purchased all the stuff that's come out for CoX. I wish Paragon nothing but the best. It's late and I'm fading. Best Wishes to All |
and stories.
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Most of those would need new code. None need a new codebase as far as I can tell. Some would require very large amounts of code. But less than writing a new game from scratch.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Your grammar's a little broken, there. Are you saying that every suggestion you've seen could be implemented in the current architecture?
Because stretching powers, growth powers, swinging movement, destructible environment, four-legged player meshes, and vehicles all would seem to require a new codebase. |
To require a new codebase, those features would have to not just require new code to implement, but be either impossible to implement or excessively encumbered with the existing code to make them far more difficult to implement within this game than implementing the feature from scratch. Which of those features do you believe have that property, and why?
Let's take four-legged player rigs. What's wrong with them? What's wrong with them is that the animation system isn't designed to handle them, and all existing animations aren't designed to deal with them. All four-legged critters would basically be starting from scratch, without even standing and walking animation cycles. You'd have to make every single animation again, including Dragon's Tail, Backflip, Jump Kick, Hover, Knockback, Walk, Ready, Slide - everything. Adding that feature would take an *enormous* amount of animator time.
But a new game would be in the same position: it would also be starting at zero. In what sense would this game actually *prevent* the implementation of that feature, except in terms of the huge resources involved - keeping in mind a new game would also require huge resources to implement?
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Are you suggesting a free to play model implies an MMO cannot compete with its peers any longer? Because there are people who believe strongly enough in that model to believe all MMOs should *launch* with that model in this day and age: that it is the stronger model for future MMOs to follow.|
Originally Posted by Robot
e free-to-play model would then allow the die-hard fans a chance to support their game where it really counts (at the cash shop), while gracefully acknowledging it's age and engine limitation in the marketplace, and introducing tons of new players to Paragon City.
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If Paragon does make a new MMO, whether it is CoH2 or something else entirely, I think there is a better than even chance it will be free to play. If Free to Play would be CoH players acknowledging their game has limitations, what would the new players of the new game be acknowledging?
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You don't need as much content as CoH. You just need enough. And it isn't just CoH you're competing with on that score, its every other MMO out there that has been around more than a year. I don't know why this is, but MMO dev teams either believe content gaps are something they can fix after launch, or something they don't want to launch with but are forced to do so by publishers, or something they just can't make fast enough for some inexplicable reason.
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Originally Posted by Residentx10
I'll just add this comment. DCUO never had a chance. How do you play ball with a game that is 7 years old?
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I think growth powers are the best example. For them to work, you'd have to add hitboxes for every environment objects in every zone and mission map, so that overlarge characters would not clip every time they enter a corridor or walk under a bridge. Even then you'd need to handle partial powers (if a character who can normally grow to 20 feet can only grow to 8 feet because there's a ceiling, how does that affect his melee damage or resistance?) and a host of problems with power activation. It *might* be possible with the current codebase, but it would be messy and an insane amount of work. Much easier would be to create a new codebase with hit planes on every mesh, and model the physics of cramped spaces with a link to a new partial power expression scale. Bonus points if you wed that physics system into a destructible environment, because giants break things.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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To require a new codebase, those features would have to not just require new code to implement, but be either impossible to implement or excessively encumbered with the existing code to make them far more difficult to implement within this game than implementing the feature from scratch. Which of those features do you believe have that property, and why? |
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| Let's take four-legged player rigs. What's wrong with them? What's wrong with them is that the animation system isn't designed to handle them, and all existing animations aren't designed to deal with them. All four-legged critters would basically be starting from scratch, without even standing and walking animation cycles. You'd have to make every single animation again, including Dragon's Tail, Backflip, Jump Kick, Hover, Knockback, Walk, Ready, Slide - everything. Adding that feature would take an *enormous* amount of animator time. |
Note that such a skeletal mesh system would tie into the physics system that lets growth powers and destructible environment work. If you implemented these features separately in the old code, it would take you three times the effort. If you start with a new codebase you'll spend less effort (although none of them would be 'free'.)
I suppose both answers can be true. Many of these features *could* be implemented in the current system with very large outlays of manpower and money. But they would all be *easier* to implement in a new system, with a codebase designed to facilitate them.
(I take back 'vehicles', by the way. I just remembered how Anarchy Online did vehicles. If we followed that path then CoX could have vehicles tomorrow with very little effort, although they'd kind of suck.
)
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For any feature to be easier to implement in a new game rather than in the existing game, two things must be simultaneously true:|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I suppose both answers can be true. Many of these features *could* be implemented in the current system with very large outlays of manpower and money. But they would all be *easier* to implement in a new system, with a codebase designed to facilitate them.
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1. The existing code is sufficiently poorly understood that tampering with the parts that have to integrate with the new code would be dangerous and slow.
2. Parts of the existing code actually make the desired feature *impossible* to add, forcing parts of the game unrelated to the new feature to be modified in non-trivial ways.
Without these two factors in force, the amount of code necessary to implement feature X is usually the same whether it is in a new game or an existing game. Where the existing game can make it harder is usually by the collateral effects of adding the feature, which the above two create.
In very rare cases its possible for a new feature to require such a fundamental change in the way the game is designed that as a practical matter it simply cannot coexist in the current game and can only exist in a game that is designed around that feature. However, lets take your example of growth powers, one point at a time:
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| I think growth powers are the best example. For them to work, you'd have to add hitboxes for every environment objects in every zone and mission map, so that overlarge characters would not clip every time they enter a corridor or walk under a bridge. |
And actually, I think the problem is less the bounding of the environment, and more the bounding of the characters. Our heads protrude into spaces not because those spaces aren't bounded, but because our heads are outside our own bounding box.
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| Even then you'd need to handle partial powers (if a character who can normally grow to 20 feet can only grow to 8 feet because there's a ceiling, how does that affect his melee damage or resistance?) and a host of problems with power activation. |
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Growth powers would work fine in a controlled environment. If the mission map was designed for it and the powers were plot-based so that part of the scaling was achieved by making enemy NPCs smaller (or making them MUCH bigger and the player much smaller) it wouldn't be difficult to accomplish.
It would work in the same way that the plot-based chape changing powers in DCUO work. Not a true powerset, just some events that affect you during missions in a special arc.
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Okay. I started out by asking for clarification, and here I've got it. Thanks.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For any feature to be easier to implement in a new game rather than in the existing game, two things must be simultaneously true:
1. The existing code is sufficiently poorly understood that tampering with the parts that have to integrate with the new code would be dangerous and slow. 2. Parts of the existing code actually make the desired feature *impossible* to add, forcing parts of the game unrelated to the new feature to be modified in non-trivial ways. Without these two factors in force, the amount of code necessary to implement feature X is usually the same whether it is in a new game or an existing game. |
Given those rules, I have to agree with you. I cannot think of any addition to the game that would be *impossible* to implement in the old code. I think that for a lot of changes it would be easier and wiser to start fresh, but I can't think of any addons where a new codebase would be necessary.
I think your criteria is too high, though. You could twist the existing code into almost any other game without starting over, but that doesn't mean it would be a good idea. You could make CoX a racing game, a minecraft-like sandbox, a side-scrolling arcade game, or a linear single-player RPG by bolting code onto the existing system. But in each case starting over would be the easier path.
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In all those cases, you would be changing very fundamental aspects of the game, to the point where making those changes would require you to in effect rewrite virtually the entire game. And it is at that point that it makes sense to make a new game, because the new game would be incompatible with the old one, and require virtually as much work to create whether you retrofit or start from scratch.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I think your criteria is too high, though. You could twist the existing code into almost any other game without starting over, but that doesn't mean it would be a good idea. You could make CoX a racing game, a minecraft-like sandbox, a side-scrolling arcade game, or a linear single-player RPG by bolting code onto the existing system. But in each case starting over would be the easier path.
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If your *intent* is to preserve as much of this game as possible and just add one thing its better to add that one thing to this game rather than replicate all of this game's features except for that one thing. But if you're going to make an entirely new game, its obviously time to start fresh and make an entirely new game.
That's why the issue of character portability is a logical one, not a player preference one. If enough of the game survives to make character portability reasonable, you're almost certainly better off just adding those features to the existing game. Character portability as a practical matter requires a large amount of the fundamental game to remain intact. Conversely if you are changing enough things to justify a new game in the first place, character portability is likely no longer relevant. It wouldn't really be character portability: it would be offering your old customers the right to start at the level cap with new characters. Nobody does that.
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I hope this time they actually 'design' the game. A game that needs WINE to run on a Mac? Has a 32 bit limit on the market? Hell can't even fix the HO bug because of how the invention system is written?
Seriously, who designed this game? rms?
Here's to hoping they hire someone who knows how to write good software this time around.
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Honestly I hope they are not working on a CoH2, they cant even get the first one fixed.. So the hope that they would get a second one right is pretty null and void.
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Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..