So now CoH is a "raiding" game.
By
Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2011-05-05 08:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I know. Radical, non-forum standard thinking. Instead of having a fit if other people aren't forced to adapt to my preferred playstyle or feeling threatened and offended that others have different tastes and then raging because they shouldn't oughta be allowed to want things other than what the Devs provide... I get begin to lose interest in a game when I personally can't play in the fashion I enjoy. I mean, I could stay up nights losing sleep and chewing my toenails in geek rage at the thought of other people getting what they want even when it's not at my expense, but just can't work up the rage. I'm content to just say "eh, this isn't doing it for me any more, hopefully they'll bring the stuff I like up to par sooner rather than later, because I'd really like to get into this Incarnate thing."|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
The first hand, because I'm not sticking my hand in a litterbox.
I'm intrigued that you're taking the aggressive form of the other side of this argument. While some of the forums say "You should leave the game if you don't like it", you're saying "We might as well leave the game if we don't like it". Interesting. |
They'll take my internet arguementation license away, won't they?
I've pretty much gotten bored with my alts and don't feel like grindgrindgrinding on my 50's. And I'm never, ever, going to be desperate enough to play any game to suddenly LRN2TEEM and embrace Pick Up Task...er, Groups. So I'll probably unplug my account for a while. Not some righteous rage quit full of wrath and foot stomping, I'll leave that to Jeste when solo players "ruin" his game be being allowed to, well, accomplish something efficiently solo again. I've taken breaks from CoX before when it got stale and always come back when the issues that bugged me were fixed or when interesting new content came out. But in the meantime, why pay money for something that's currently catering to other parts of the fanbase and leaving my plate empty? It gives me a sad, because Incarnate has a lot of potential, but it's not going to ruin my life to play other games for a few months.
The thing is, save for a few select things, most of the things the Devs have said that they're looking into have been either fixed or changed. If you put the things on one hand that they haven't changed or fixed and put the rest of the things on another that they have you should be absolutely staggered.
Things that haven't changed that need it/or fixed: PvP, Base Raids, Bases, Stalkers, Shadow Shard
Things that they've looked into and changed: Stalkers, Blasters, Dominators, Defenders (solo damage buff), Side switching, Power Customization, Weapon Customization, Redraw (on some sets), CoP (even if I don't like it), Market Merge, Huge numbers of QoL issues, Inherent Stamina, Bruising on Tankers (minor, but it was a bone that the Tanks had been asking for in some form for a while), Server List Merge
There are some long standing issues, but the long standing issues do tend to get looked at, even if they don't get solved - PvP was actually looked at and changed (even if it was for the worse). Bases need love, and Stalkers need....something, but even Stalkers are on both lists for a reason - they've gotten an over haul even if it didn't completely fix the issue (since the issue appears to be systemic and conceptual, and therefore not easy to fix). When the devs declare they're going to look at something in the past few years they actually have a pretty good track record for being up front about stuff. It sometimes takes a while, but it does happen. I think claiming that you don't believe them when they say they're just looking at it is a bit ridiculous. Should you get excited? Probably not. But they're using non-specific language because that's how they talk, and that's how they're required to talk and if they're smart, that's how they have to talk. I wouldn't trust the dev team that speaks in absolutes because there's almost no way you can deliver on absolutes, until you absolutely know you can.
The devs have said that they're looking into it. I think they've at least brought themselves enough time to look into it without claiming that they're not going to try to make a fix.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
I've said before, and I will say it again. Out devs rock. They look at what we ask for, and many times, they implement it. Give them some time to actually do something. And "It's been 2 months" is not giving them any time.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
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That's exactly what I am doing now (moving on to other games) and for the same reasons. The Incarnate Trials and TF's are just not my cup o' tea and I refuse to continually bang my head against the wall trying to squeeze shards out of normal missions. |
Originally Posted by paynesgrey
I've pretty much gotten bored with my alts and don't feel like grindgrindgrinding on my 50's. And I'm never, ever, going to be desperate enough to play any game to suddenly LRN2TEEM and embrace Pick Up Task...er, Groups. So I'll probably unplug my account for a while. Not some righteous rage quit full of wrath and foot stomping, I'll leave that to Jeste when solo players "ruin" his game be being allowed to, well, accomplish something efficiently solo again. I've taken breaks from CoX before when it got stale and always come back when the issues that bugged me were fixed or when interesting new content came out. But in the meantime, why pay money for something that's currently catering to other parts of the fanbase and leaving my plate empty? It gives me a sad, because Incarnate has a lot of potential, but it's not going to ruin my life to play other games for a few months.
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BTW: MMORPG does not mean every quest or mission or progression style is limited to group content. Multiplayer simply means that many people are online simultaneously sharing a common gaming experience. How gaming goals are accomplished can be multi-faceted to meet the player desires/needs. Guild Wars, for example, has created an excellent, customizable henchman system that allows solo players and/or groups to perform missions/quests without the need to rescale the content.
CoX devs could have done the same or something similar to make ALL content available to ALL players of every play style, but they chose to not do so. 'Tis a pity because they will have a net loss in subscribers over this issue. Time off from CoX will be good - maybe I will appreciate the game again many moons from now after all the Incarnate mess is fixed and available for ALL to enjoy.
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The difference is that your parents couldn't wait for you to be out of their house and the devs want you to pay money to stay in theirs.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
People need to consider the "We're looking into it..." in the same vein as when your parents told you, "We'll see..." when you were a kid.
Sometimes you got what you wanted, most of the time, they were waiting for you to forget about whatever it was. (IMO) |
Edit: Although hey, remember PVP? Bases? Base Raids?
Welp.
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As much as I would personally love to see a robust 'sidekick' style pet in CoH ... have you taken a look at just how horrible the pet/npc AI is in CoH?|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
Guild Wars, for example, has created an excellent, customizable henchman system that allows solo players and/or groups to perform missions/quests without the need to rescale the content.
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Also as much as I like their implementation of the henchmen and all that over in GW there have also been many quests there where I absolutely had to join up with other players because my ability to micromanage my pets just wouldn't cut it. Completely impossible for me to solo missions that required me to group in order to get past.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
Amen. The raiding hasn't gotten as boring, guild-necessitating, and time critical as other games yet, but we're stepping in the wrong direction. Wish BAF and LAM were single-team, hope new content is single team.
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Pretty much this. |
Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
I've said before, and I will say it again. Out devs rock. They look at what we ask for, and many times, they implement it. Give them some time to actually do something. And "It's been 2 months" is not giving them any time.
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Is it reasonable to expect the things you want to be given to you the instant you want them?
Not at all.
I'm equating the complaining here to the person who goes to a gourmet restaurant and gets outraged that their meal wasn't brought to the table within 5 minutes of ordering it.
Food takes time to cook, especially good food.
Games take time to code, especially good games.
I can guarantee that if they rushed some solo/small group content out to appease the people who want it RIGHT NOW, it will be horrible, badly written, and buggy.
Be patient and give the devs a chance to actually do a good job on the stuff you want, instead of demanding they bang out some crappy, forgettable missions because you can't wait.
Like others have said, it has only been 2 freaking months. Don't you think that's a little soon to be saying "Oh, we don't have it yet, so we clearly never WILL have it"?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Then folks should stop saying that the devs are copying WoW and other raiding games. In fact they should stop calling the trials, "raids" because they aren't. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
At some point reading comprehension will kick in and the people who keep bringing up this tired old argument will realize that we don't care what other MMOs do, just like nobody cares how Grandpa had to walk five miles in the snow to school every day, uphill, both ways.
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Nice sideways flame, by the way. Proving my point about this cohort of complaints all the time.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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OK. Honestly, I've seen YOU and a couple of other people limit their complaints to that. But it's disingenuous to claim that people haven't been making these ridiculous claims about the whole focus of the game shifting. Hell, it's the subject of this OP. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
This is hyperbole. Most people are objecting to the current implementation of the 'other' path for Incarnate levels (shards and their conversion).
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| I tend to agree about very rares but Rares offer level shift and those should be a goal worth obtaining. |
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| I still find it laughable that you think the current converstion method for shards to threads can be used to make 'meaningful progress.' Progress? Yes. Meaningful? Pfffffffft. :P |
1) I'm actually trying it instead of complaining about it. I have an alt that I am perfectly happy to just get to uncommon stage with. So once it's done I'll assess how it compares to my main Incarnate characters.
2) I don't find the fact that it will take a long time to be particularly problematic. Been here continuously for 7 years. Not planning on leaving. In no rush. As I've told you over and over, I don't play for shinies, I play for fun. I do the trials when I want fun, not shinies. I already have rares on my main Incarnates, even have the salvage for the very rares, just don't care to craft it. But I still play the trials because they are fun. I still play alts, I still do TFs.
More than anything, this is what I find so completely bewildering about this argument. That people can't just play what they enjoy and let the rewards come when they come.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually for myself it's a case of making damn sure the Devs don't forget for even one second how thoroughly unhappy some of us are with the current end game design. I'd rather it doesn't take them until Issue 40 to get around to these solo and small team options they are promising. The best way I know to do that is to keep reminding them. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Thing is, Je_saist has a point.
People are whining, when the devs have already stated there are plans to add what they're whining about. They just aren't implemented yet. However, this is of course not good enough for them. |
You're all silly.
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When I compared myself to some posters in places like the market forum, I seem to be fairly laid back about the timeframes I have to achieve goals. I'll work on something over the course of a couple of months if it's sufficiently high-end. Yet I am not so laissez-faire about them that I am willing for them to take years. Not for one character, certainly. The point of shinies is to have them at some point, so that you can actually enjoy the combination of satisfaction at a goal achieved and the material benefits of the shiny.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
More than anything, this is what I find so completely bewildering about this argument. That people can't just play what they enjoy and let the rewards come when they come.
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I advise people to enjoy the journey all the time, but I wouldn't advise them to walk from Vladivostok to Cape Town to visit the sights there.
I also think that the magnitude of the current difference in time it takes to get to Rare/Very Rare status doing the iTrials and ... any other way is rankling people. If it took weeks to do it via iTrials and months to do it in other content, there might be less grumbling. Instead, if you're lucky it can take days to hit multiple very rares. I'm on my fourth character who has three or four Very Rare components.
Based on dev comments, I do expect this to improve. As seems to be a bit too common for my tastes these days, they could be doing a better job of managing community expectations. Perhaps that's too easy to say with the benefit of hindsight, but some of the forum backlashes we've seen lately have seemed entirely predictable to me, and could have been mitigated with news that came out later. Either these were things they already planned to do and needed to mention earlier, or they were things I think they should have been planning to do without a backlash to suggest them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I agree with this. Serious melodrama around here lately.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
You're all silly.
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Quitchabichin and go save the world.
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I've found that when you stop focusing on the goal, the time becomes irrelevant. I have characters I've even forgotten what Inventions I wanted for them. Recently, my Will/DB Tanker has a build that soft-caps SM, LE and a few other things. I had it all planned out in mids last year. Logged on recently to find that I had all the merits needed to finish it up without spending a dime. Just plain didn't bother because the character was already sturdy and I was having fun.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
When I compared myself to some posters in places like the market forum, I seem to be fairly laid back about the timeframes I have to achieve goals. I'll work on something over the course of a couple of months if it's sufficiently high-end. Yet I am not so laissez-faire about them that I am willing for them to take years. Not for one character, certainly. The point of shinies is to have them at some point, so that you can actually enjoy the combination of satisfaction at a goal achieved and the material benefits of the shiny.
I advise people to enjoy the journey all the time, but I wouldn't advise them to walk from Vladivostok to Cape Town to visit the sights there. |
I used to play for shinies, but I got older and I got over it. This is all just digital crap. It's certainly fun to be playing my Incarnates on an ITF, but it's not so crazy that I'm going to stress that my other 9 level 50s aren't that powerful.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You may not really mean it to, but this has a condescending tone that makes me really want to discount your viewpoint as too closed-minded. The mention of "getting older" suggests strongly that anyone with a viewpoint other than yours is immature, and would get over having a different viewpoint, if only they would grow up.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I used to play for shinies, but I got older and I got over it. This is all just digital crap. It's certainly fun to be playing my Incarnates on an ITF, but it's not so crazy that I'm going to stress that my other 9 level 50s aren't that powerful.
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You don't have to share other people's viewpoints to understand that different people can have different motivations for participating in any given activity, such as playing a video game. Sometimes those motivations lead to individuals wanting things that are simply too far out of line with the balance, design or implementation of a game, and in those cases, they are probably out of luck. I don't see a strong case for that in this situation. I mostly see folks saying "I think it's fine, suck it up."
I've got little objection to playing iTrials (other than the participation system, which I hate the idea of), and I'm still on-board with the idea that there should be more alternative ways of obtaining Incarnate powers that offer better comparative progress rates to the current Shard-only method.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes they are. Raids are raids. There's no time requirement for the definition of the word.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Then folks should stop saying that the devs are copying WoW and other raiding games. In fact they should stop calling the trials, "raids" because they aren't.
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You should probably stop with the "People need to do this, people need to do that. I'm gonna set you all straight" tone of your posts if you're going to post inane irrelevant stuff like this.
What solo or small-team-based content in this game is difficult enough at base level to require Incarnate Abilities? Or, indeed, even make Incarnate Abilities desirable?
I ask because I don't really follow:
If a player is enjoying playing the high-level solo content, why worry about the rate at which Incarnate Abilities are unlocked?
If a player finds high-end solo contant trivial to replay in gaining Incarnate Abilities, why believe it will become less trivial with these abilities?
In other words, if you're enjoyably handling all of the content you are interested in playing with your current powerset, why try to change that by seeking different abilities?
I truly do not understand this.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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Yeah. But right now, there's complaining about something being in game that people don't want to join in on. The trials.|
Originally Posted by paynesgrey
When, *if* solo/small group Incarnate content gets here, then I'll be happy. Thrilled. Delighted even. Until then, well, if you hold what's "being considered for implementation" in one hand, and rummage in the litter box with the other, guess which one fills up first?
In the meantime, solo and small group players are graciously permitted to farm Moss Snakes or learn to change their playstyle to City of Farmville. |
What they want is the Incarnate Slots, what they keep forgetting is those incarnate slots they don't want to unlock the fast and easy way, are only needed for the Incarnate Trials right now.
So really, they have all the time in the world to save up shards, convert them to threads and unlock their not needed incarnate abilities, untill a solo/small team incarnate content is put in.
Also note to another post...whining/OMG complain fest of hatred and moaning isn't a friendly reminder.
Dear Devs,
Just want to remind you, I continue to hope for solo/small team Incarnate content in the future. Please! I offer internet cookies! They're better than real ones as they have 100% less calories!
Hugs & Kisses, The Poster
...is a friendly reminder.
And it beats "I hate you and I hate the content, give me this so I can make use of these powers that I really don't need for anything I prefere to do...like soloing! Grrrr...arrrggg."And also agreed, this isn't raiding. These are limited player zone events! LS and BAF, they're slightly longer Winter Event missions with more people involved.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
The thing is, save for a few select things, most of the things the Devs have said that they're looking into have been either fixed or changed. If you put the things on one hand that they haven't changed or fixed and put the rest of the things on another that they have you should be absolutely staggered.
Things that haven't changed that need it/or fixed: PvP, Base Raids, Bases, Stalkers, Shadow Shard Things that they've looked into and changed: Stalkers, Blasters, Dominators, Defenders (solo damage buff), Side switching, Power Customization, Weapon Customization, Redraw (on some sets), CoP (even if I don't like it), Market Merge, Huge numbers of QoL issues, Inherent Stamina, Bruising on Tankers (minor, but it was a bone that the Tanks had been asking for in some form for a while), Server List Merge There are some long standing issues, but the long standing issues do tend to get looked at, even if they don't get solved - PvP was actually looked at and changed (even if it was for the worse). Bases need love, and Stalkers need....something, but even Stalkers are on both lists for a reason - they've gotten an over haul even if it didn't completely fix the issue (since the issue appears to be systemic and conceptual, and therefore not easy to fix). When the devs declare they're going to look at something in the past few years they actually have a pretty good track record for being up front about stuff. It sometimes takes a while, but it does happen. I think claiming that you don't believe them when they say they're just looking at it is a bit ridiculous. Should you get excited? Probably not. But they're using non-specific language because that's how they talk, and that's how they're required to talk and if they're smart, that's how they have to talk. I wouldn't trust the dev team that speaks in absolutes because there's almost no way you can deliver on absolutes, until you absolutely know you can. The devs have said that they're looking into it. I think they've at least brought themselves enough time to look into it without claiming that they're not going to try to make a fix. |
This. People keep bring up the less-than-handful of issues that haven't gotten a lot of dev attention as "proof" that they will forget adding more types of incarnate content, while completely ignoring the rather large list of things they *have* fixed/improved/acted upon. They've more than earned the benefit of the doubt here, especially considering the investment that the Incarnate system is.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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What large team content is difficult enough at base level to require Incarnate Abilities?|
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
What solo or small-team-based content in this game is difficult enough at base level to require Incarnate Abilities? Or, indeed, even make Incarnate Abilities desirable?
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Desirable? Um, the powers are frickin awesome. My Scrapper has another badass AoE, -tohit in his fire attacks and a pet to help him out. Solo or team, I WANT the goodies.
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
I ask because I don't really follow:
If a player is enjoying playing the high-level solo content, why worry about the rate at which Incarnate Abilities are unlocked? |
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
If a player finds high-end solo contant trivial to replay in gaining Incarnate Abilities, why believe it will become less trivial with these abilities?
In other words, if you're enjoyably handling all of the content you are interested in playing with your current powerset, why try to change that by seeking different abilities? I truly do not understand this. |
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Actually, I'll just continue to post whatever I want within the rules. And you'll continue to snip. Your choice.
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Originally Posted by Haterade
You should probably stop with the "People need to do this, people need to do that. I'm gonna set you all straight" tone of your posts if you're going to post inane irrelevant stuff like this.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Let me ask you this. Why did you read, "When you all get older you're understand," into my post? |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You may not really mean it to, but this has a condescending tone that makes me really want to discount your viewpoint as too closed-minded. The mention of "getting older" suggests strongly that anyone with a viewpoint other than yours is immature, and would get over having a different viewpoint, if only they would grow up.
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I didn't say that. I discussed how my personal views developed over time. It's simply a fact, that I used to get much more upset about this stuff, but age and experience mellowed me out. I know teenagers who have the same outlook. I know we all read things into other folks posts. I do it, everyone does. But I try (not always successful) to just read what people write and react to that.
Finally, as to discounting my views. No one cares what I or anyone else thinks on these boards for the most part. Mostly we just shout our views at each other and the devs react to make the most people happy in accord with their own goals. I respect most people's opinion on this issue, but we're long past the point where anyone is going to change their mind.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Oh, I understand quite well that people just want the Incarnate abilities because it's fun to feel powerful. No one needs the abilities for ANY content, including the trials. They want them. That's a perfectly acceptable view to have.
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
What solo or small-team-based content in this game is difficult enough at base level to require Incarnate Abilities? Or, indeed, even make Incarnate Abilities desirable?
I ask because I don't really follow: If a player is enjoying playing the high-level solo content, why worry about the rate at which Incarnate Abilities are unlocked? If a player finds high-end solo contant trivial to replay in gaining Incarnate Abilities, why believe it will become less trivial with these abilities? In other words, if you're enjoyably handling all of the content you are interested in playing with your current powerset, why try to change that by seeking different abilities? I truly do not understand this. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
In the meantime, solo and small group players are graciously permitted to farm Moss Snakes or learn to change their playstyle to City of Farmville.
Sometimes you got what you wanted, most of the time, they were waiting for you to forget about whatever it was.
(IMO)